How to introduce unorthodox study into a commercialized dojo, as a student?

[GreenieMeanie]

Are you by any chance more used to videos and/or attending seminars than attending regular classes?
Reason I ask, is I can see your question making sense if you are. In those situations, you have to get all the information at once so you can then train with it. In classes, it tends to be more typical to train, and as you come to get a better understanding, you'll slowly (and more naturally) begin to understand the nuance. But the big thing is getting the muscle memory in place first.



As a side note, and as a possible answer to your question, typically in FMA the theory is that whatever size blade you train with, the skills can transfer to another size. So while a specific drill may not make sense with the training blade that you're using, that's not all that important. You're learning the mechanics, which is what's important.

@Monkey Turned Wolf

Thanks for your input.

When I started out at the place, I actually found the video version of the curriculums, used by the organizations the instructors are certified from, and have been going through it.

It’s now occurred to me, from what you said, that perhaps it’s not an issue of competence. Maybe it’s just a cultural clash. They’re more into a rank system, which I haven’t dealt with since I was a child. Most of my martial education and training has been through non-traditional gyms/dojos, in which they weren’t strict about the learning curve.

 

[gyoja]

Does anyone recommend stabbing their way out of life or death situation? That’s a pretty bad life circumstance to be in.

You missed the point. The shooting tactics that you discussed are bad. Where did you learn them?

 

[GreenieMeanie]

You missed the point. The shooting tactics that you discussed are bad. Where did you learn them?

I’m not aware of anyone living long after the neck, heart, aortas, brachials, and femorals have been punctured and torn open in quick succession.

The famous Fairbairn-Sykes fighting knife, which is basically a dagger, was meant for puncturing and tearing open the necks of sentries.

This is how people with little training who live in rough parts of the world do it. This is how criminals do it. This is how dudes raiding compounds in the Middle East and South America do it.

Someone grabs your rifle, you don’t slice. You grab your knife, and you hammer in until they let go. I know of one guy who served in Afghanistan, who explicitly placed a dagger with a ring on his chest, so he could immediately catch with his thumb, grab and stab with it, if he lost control of his rifle.

 

[gyoja]

I’m not aware of anyone living long after the neck, heart, aortas, brachials, and femorals have been punctured and torn open in quick succession.

The famous Fairbairn-Sykes fighting knife, which is basically a dagger, was meant for puncturing and tearing open the necks of sentries.

This is how people with little training who live in rough parts of the world do it. This is how criminals do it. This is how dudes raiding compounds in the Middle East and South America do it.

Someone grabs your rifle, you don’t slice. You grab your knife, and you hammer in until they let go. I know of one guy who served in Afghanistan, who explicitly placed a dagger with a ring on his chest, so he could immediately catch with his thumb, grab and stab with it, if he lost control of his rifle.

Slow down there buddy. I was specifically addressing your shooting tactics. You don’t live in these countries, so that doesn’t work in respect to firearms. I have used a knife in a lethal engagement in combat, and I can assure you it was not my first option. I have also raided compounds in the Middle East and South America, and this is not how we use our fighting knives.

 

[GreenieMeanie]

Slow down there buddy. I was specifically addressing your shooting tactics. You don’t live in these countries, so that doesn’t work in respect to firearms. I have used a knife in a lethal engagement in combat, and I can assure you it was not my first option. I have also raided compounds in the Middle East and South America, and this is not how we use our fighting knives.

Apologies if I come off as arrogant. This is not my intention.

What about shooting tactics? How many rounds are you sending towards center mass, before the fight ends? Are you not doing “critical shots” or “canoeing” if you’re worried about a bomb vest?

What was the circumstance in which you used your knife?

 

[gyoja]

Apologies if I come off as arrogant. This is not my intention.

No worries. No one is upset here, just wanted to clarify that I was talking shooting rather than stabbing.

What about shooting tactics? How many rounds are you sending towards center mass, before the fight ends? Are you not doing “critical shots” or “canoeing” if you’re worried about a bomb vest?

In the states, the average self defense encounter is over within three rounds and occurs within seven yards. Remember that you are responsible for every round that goes down range and have to consider things like backstop. Tactical shooting is a completely different conversation.

What was the circumstance in which you used your knife?

I’ll discuss the one that I used as a training aid when instructing combatives. My unit was clearing a building by force. I entered and cleared a side room with one other soldier. We took fire from our 12 o’clock, while simultaneously an enemy combatant entered from my 3 o’clock. He ran into me and knocked me off balance. I knew that I was going down, so the easiest way to control his weapon was to grab him and place him in my guard on the ground (rifles trapped chest to chest). I went for my sidearm in a thigh holster with my right hand. Seeing this, he attempted to grab the weapon as well. I trapped his arm using my right bicep, and grabbed my folding knife with the same hand. I then stabbed the enemy combatant in the left side of his neck. I can assure you that the situation wasn’t optimal, but the best that I could do at the time.

 

[GreenieMeanie]

No worries. No one is upset here, just wanted to clarify that I was talking shooting rather than stabbing.

In the states, the average self defense encounter is over within three rounds and occurs within seven yards. Remember that you are responsible for every round that goes down range and have to consider things like backstop. Tactical shooting is a completely different conversation.

I’ll discuss the one that I used as a training aid when instructing combatives. My unit was clearing a building by force. I entered and cleared a side room with one other soldier. We took fire from our 12 o’clock, while simultaneously an enemy combatant entered from my 3 o’clock. He ran into me and knocked me off balance. I knew that I was going down, so the easiest way to control his weapon was to grab him and place him in my guard on the ground (rifles trapped chest to chest). I went for my sidearm in a thigh holster with my right hand. Seeing this, he attempted to grab the weapon as well. I trapped his arm using my right bicep, and grabbed my folding knife with the same hand. I then stabbed the enemy combatant in the left side of his neck. I can assure you that the situation wasn’t optimal, but the best that I could do at the time.

I think you may have misinterpreted me, because as far as I can tell, we are in agreement.

I do know of an instance where a Mexican cop was ambushed similarly in a trap house, and he pressed the narco against the wall, controlled his arm, pulled his blade—neck, brachial, lung, femoral.

 

[gyoja]

I think you may have misinterpreted me, because as far as I can tell, we are in agreement.

I do know of an instance where a Mexican cop was ambushed similarly in a trap house, and he pressed the narco against the wall, controlled his arm, pulled his blade—neck, brachial, lung, femoral.

I guess the two points that I was making is the language used in shooting tactics and knife tactics in combat. If you were discussing a combat shoot, then we can go into the weeds on what is the best practices, but I was disagreeing on tactics on self defense shootings. For knife tactics in combat, they would normally be used as a last resort and even then, rarely occurs.

 

[GreenieMeanie]

I guess the two points that I was making is the language used in shooting tactics and knife tactics in combat. If you were discussing a combat shoot, then we can go into the weeds on what is the best practices, but I was disagreeing on tactics on self defense shootings. For knife tactics in combat, they would normally be used as a last resort and even then, rarely occurs.

All true. My interest is really academic. I once listened to a podcast with a knife guy, and an ex-marine turned executive protection. They used shooting as an analogy, and that stayed with me as an apt way of talking about knives with a shooter.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I’m not aware of anyone living long after the neck, heart, aortas, brachials, and femorals have been punctured and torn open in quick succession.

Really important. Tear and Cut are not the same thing.

 

[GreenieMeanie]

Really important. Tear and Cut are not the same thing.

That is correct per the dictionary definitions, and I imagine the distinction matters in general discussion of blade-work.

However, once a stabbing implement is mobile in tissue, twisting, pushing, pulling—it would seem to me, that the distinction isn’t as relevant. Unless of course, you’ve got a good knife that’s completely and precisely opening up the body.

 

[JowGaWolf]

That is correct per the dictionary definitions, and I imagine the distinction matters in general discussion of blade-work.

However, once a stabbing implement is mobile in tissue, twisting, pushing, pulling—it would seem to me, that the distinction isn’t as relevant. Unless of course, you’ve got a good knife that’s completely and precisely opening up the body.

It would still be relevant, because the blade determines the function. Twisting, pushing and pulling a blade once it's in has nothing to do with the blade design. I can stab an ice pick into soft tissue and push, and pull to tear the flash, and doing so does not change the function and design purpose of the ice pick.

You picked one technique and made the assumption that it's the purpose and function of the blade

 

[gyoja]

That is correct per the dictionary definitions, and I imagine the distinction matters in general discussion of blade-work.

However, once a stabbing implement is mobile in tissue, twisting, pushing, pulling—it would seem to me, that the distinction isn’t as relevant. Unless of course, you’ve got a good knife that’s completely and precisely opening up the body.

Quick question. 1) Do you carry a knife? 2)What kind do you carry?

 

[GreenieMeanie]

It would still be relevant, because the blade determines the function. Twisting, pushing and pulling a blade once it's in has nothing to do with the blade design. I can stab an ice pick into soft tissue and push, and pull to tear the flash, and doing so does not change the function and design purpose of the ice pick.

You picked one technique and made the assumption that it's the purpose and function of the blade

I’m picking a technique that is applicable with multiple tools. At this point in the conversation, I’m not really concerned with what the tool is or isn’t designed for, mainly whether or not it’s pointy.

 

[GreenieMeanie]

Quick question. 1) Do you carry a knife? 2)What kind do you carry?

At one point, I had a benchmade, Spyderco another, both folders. Right now, I don’t, not much of a need for it at the moment.

 

[gyoja]

At one point, I had a benchmade, Spyderco another, both folders. Right now, I don’t, not much of a need for it at the moment.

I used a spyderco in the incident described.

 

[GreenieMeanie]

I used a spyderco in the incident described.

*Sponsorship opportunity detected

Though, if a name like Jocko Willink with the Navy Seal brand can’t get Oakleys to sponsor him, then that’d be a bit tough.

 

[gyoja]

*Sponsorship opportunity detected

Though, if a name like Jocko Willink with the Navy Seal brand can’t get Oakleys to sponsor him, then that’d be a bit tough.

Navy SEALs are overrated…

 

[GreenieMeanie]

Navy SEALs are overrated…

Cough* Roberts Ridge incident *cough

I heard the CO made a decision to assault a fortified Taliban position, that was ready for them. And then when they realized how badly they screwed, they forgot to do a head count, and left John Chapman to die. I’m still floored the Navy fought tooth and nail to keep Chapman from posthumously getting MOH. But, well, human nature.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I’m picking a technique that is applicable with multiple tools. At this point in the conversation, I’m not really concerned with what the tool is or isn’t designed for, mainly whether or not it’s pointy.

Do you look for references like this or do you view more of the modern stuff?