How to grip a jian

Discussion in 'Chinese Swords and Sword Arts' started by BlazeLeeDragon, Jan 11, 2013.

  1. Old Iowa Man

    Old Iowa Man Guest

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    You're right - I just picked Katana as it's what came to mind - OIM
     
  2. Grandmaster Yue men quan

    Grandmaster Yue men quan Orange Belt

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    The jian is not a blocking clashing weapon like the katana. In a katana fight depending on school you would attempt to either A. Cut down the opponent before they cut you down. Or B. Clash blades in a motion similar to swinging a sledge hammer overpowering your opponent. This is a dueling weapon. The Jian on the other hand is a touch feel sincitivity weapon you would touch the opponents weapon or body and by using the knowledge of how a person moves there arm and hand know exactly where they could move the weapon pin trap and strike. That is why you see the hands and feet used in the forms of jian where both hands would be on a katana. They are both a formidable weapon in there own right but it's classically know that jian and rapers are a more battlefield weapon because they lend the user more options.
     
  3. Tony Dismukes

    Tony Dismukes Senior Master

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    Perhaps one of the practitioners of Japanese sword arts can chime in here, but "clashing blades similar to swinging a sledge hammer" is not anything I've seen in normal katana use.

    I don't know anything about the jian, but the rapier was not really a battlefield weapon at all. It was designed for civilian self-defense and dueling.
     
  4. Xue Sheng

    Xue Sheng Sr. Grandmaster

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    Most Jians you see today are not battlefield either. However you go back to Qin and Han dynasties you see battlefield Jains and they have heavier wider blades than what you see today, also mostly bronze. The saying was, not to awfully long ago, possibly as recent as the Ming and Qing dynasties that the Jian was the weapon of the gentleman and the Dao was the weapon of the butcher. Meaning it took a lot more finesse and understanding to use a jain well as compared to a Dao.
     
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  5. Brian R. VanCise

    Brian R. VanCise MT Moderator Staff Member

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    You are definitely correct here Tony!
     
  6. Grandmaster Yue men quan

    Grandmaster Yue men quan Orange Belt

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    Anyway to make a long story short I'd rather use meridian axes than any sword.
     
  7. Jenna

    Jenna Senior Master

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    Making long stories short has its place.. still.. nothing wrong with long stories and tall tales told well :)
     
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  8. oaktree

    oaktree Master of Arts

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    Just no to all of this. By the way I practice both jian and kenjutsu.
     
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  9. Flying Crane

    Flying Crane Sr. Grandmaster

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    Yes, and there is the distinction between a jian meant for the battlefield, as you describe, vs. a jian meant for personal defense carried by a civilian. The latter can be lighter and less robust, it does not need to withstand the vigors of the battlefield, nor generally would it need to defeat armor.
     
  10. Flying Crane

    Flying Crane Sr. Grandmaster

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    I never would have made the connection, from your prior post.
     
  11. Flying Crane

    Flying Crane Sr. Grandmaster

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    I was responding to Xue here.
     
  12. oaktree

    oaktree Master of Arts

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    In jian there are parries, redirecting, I can't speak for all jian forms but I guess a block may be in there. I can not think of anyone in any Japanese sword school using a sledge hammer type of action. Jian and rapiers I dont really consider a battlefield weapon compared to say a dao or a spear
     
  13. Xue Sheng

    Xue Sheng Sr. Grandmaster

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    Oh so that's how its gonna be HUH!!!!! :D
     
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  14. Xue Sheng

    Xue Sheng Sr. Grandmaster

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    Blocks are there but tend to be done towards the hilt (same with the Dao by the way, this is one reason the entire length of the dao blade is not sharp) and many of those, if not all in someone "Highly skilled" with a jian are deflections and or redirections. But this is the thinner more modern version, not necessarily the jain of old, think Qin, Han, etc.
     
  15. Grandmaster Yue men quan

    Grandmaster Yue men quan Orange Belt

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    If I was to grip a sword I would probably use the tool I used the most in my kung-fu. Or the character Sun fist. And would probably use the moon hand to hold the scabbard. Or as close to them as possible. I would move the sword in the moon shape and the scabbard in straight lines like the sun footwork. I would probably use sun footwork to! It is grasp sparrow tail on the four directions and fair lady weaves a shuttle on the diagonals. Accompanied by the circle walk if you want. I would be more concerned about keeping the opponents sword under the guard in roll back and blade above the opponents sword in move forward. And use the yin power arc to switch sides above and yang below. On the right to left I would go high, and left to right I would go low. To follow the classic of if solid on the left make the right dissappear. I would use the 6 gates 36 points of the body, 48 points of the limbs, 18 techniques of the arms and legs to accomplish cohesion. So my answer would be I would use the character sun fist to hold the jian.
     
  16. Xue Sheng

    Xue Sheng Sr. Grandmaster

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    You do realize that without context, that makes no sense. I am assuming the 18 techniques means Lohan. 36 points of the body, 48 points of the limbs can be a reference to acupuncture techniques, Sun fist is found in various styles and it is not the same and then there is Sun style taijiquan too, which I think is what you are referring to. And the 6 gates, I think I know what you are talking about, but I am not sure how many others will and I have 2 different possibilities for that which also depend on lineage and style. Terminology is nice when talking to those that know it, but to those that don't it can be gibberish.
     
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  17. Grandmaster Yue men quan

    Grandmaster Yue men quan Orange Belt

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    Pretty much that is the framework for the 108 postures someone who knows them and can add would know what I'm talking about without much deduction.
     
  18. Flying Crane

    Flying Crane Sr. Grandmaster

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    I would simply grip the hilt comfortably with my right hand and the scabbard in my left, and draw the jian from the scabbard.

    Then I would take a breath and a mental pause to evaluate my situation. And drive the point of that blade right up into the guts of that fool bastard who dared to stand against me.
     
  19. Grandmaster Yue men quan

    Grandmaster Yue men quan Orange Belt

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    I don't think I would ever use a sword in self defense a gun is much more practical. Swords and martial arts training is to teach you situational awareness, and lin Kong Jin or how to use distance as a weapon in positional kung-fu. The sword is a training device so is almost everything in martial arts they teach you different aspects of nature that are the same, that way you can learn to function according to the natural way which is not what people naturally do. Sun fist is the same fist you use for sun and moon salute or pounding mortar and pestle.
     
  20. Flying Crane

    Flying Crane Sr. Grandmaster

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    I would not use it in self defense, either.
     

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