How to Find a Wing Chun School That is Modernized

[Martial D]

There are many ways to develop dependable MA skill. The sparring is not the only way.

For example, if you can hit my head with your first 20 punches, you win that round. Otherwise, I win that round. Repeat this for 15 rounds and record the daily result. Repeat it for 6 months and record the 6 months result.

The reason that I don't like pure sparring because people may be afraid to develop new MA skill. If your opponent can throw 100 punches at you but none of those punches can hit you, you have developed some good MA skill.

In my last class, we played a very simple game. If one can obtain a clinch after his opponent's 1st or 2nd punch, he wins that round. Otherwise, he loses that round. Played for 15 rounds, recorded the result, and switched.

The nice thing about this game is you can "test" almost any MA skill.

Ok. Then what happens when instead of 20 punches, it's 15 punches and 5 kicks?

Aside from that I don't know if sitting back and trying to block punches would work out so well for the blocker.

You just can't simulate an alive give and take when there is a script involved.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Ok. Then what happens when instead of 20 punches, it's 15 punches and 5 kicks?

Aside from that I don't know if sitting back and trying to block punches would work out so well for the blocker.

You just can't simulate an alive give and take when there is a script involved.

After you have set the rule, you just have to follow it.

- The 1st week you may want to develop "foot sweep".
- The 2nd week you may want to develop "single leg".
- The 3rd week you may want to develop "side kick",
- ...

Since your opponent will know the only move that you are going to use on him, he will try very hard not to give you that opportunity. You will have to try very hard to create that opportunity for yourself.

In regular sparring, one may spar for 5 years and still only know how to throw jab and cross. You can force a WC class to only use "hip throw" for 1 week.

 

[Martial D]

After you have set the rule, you just have to follow it.

- The 1st week you may want to develop "foot sweep".
- The 2nd week you may want to develop "single leg".
- The 3rd week you may want to develop "side kick",
- ...

Since your opponent will know the only move that you are going to use on him, he will try very hard not to give you that opportunity. You will have to try very hard to create that opportunity for yourself.

In regular sparring, one may spar for 5 years and still only know how to throw jab and cross.

I get it, and those sound like good drills.

I just don't think that will prepare you for an actual fight.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I get it, and those sound like good drills.

I just don't think that will prepare you for an actual fight.

I'll consider this as part of the "develop" stage. It helps you to develop new tools. The more tools that you have, the better chance that you will have in an actual fight.

 

[KPM]

^^^^ As John indicates, there can be a wide definition of "sparring." "Sparring" need not always be "all out and no holds barred." Years ago Paul Vunak had a whole program he called "progressive sparring." I like his idea of progressively building up to a point where you are going all out with no rules. On the way to that there may be many different sparring "games" as John noted. You can also work on technique, specific strategies, etc.

 

[drop bear]

I get it, and those sound like good drills.

I just don't think that will prepare you for an actual fight.

It is a drill. It forces people to be better fighters. So I do MMA I don't have to wrestle. I do wrestling I do have to wrestle.

I do both then I can either wrestle or not as I choose.

 

[drop bear]

Modern fighting? Fighting is fighting. People still punch In fights today people still kick in fights today it's all the same. Just go train instead of worrying about all that nonsense

Nope.

Not if you are looking at trained fighters doing modern systems. Fighting as a science has progressed.

Having the same number of arms and legs in practice means nothing.

I have the same number of arms and legs as Ursain Bolt, Michael Jordan and Mike Tyson.

I am not anywhere near the same level of technical proficiency as those guys.

 

[Ojibway Bob]

I am a bit perplexed. Sorry I know I am new and all but it sounds like some of you walk around looking for fights. I do not understand this thought process. Is MA not supposed to train the way of thought to see glasses half full and not; "See that half empty glass over there? ima go and SMASH it!"

I used to take Karate a fair bit when I was a kid. Like most I got older, weaker, and well...mostly unfit. I ended up lifting weights, going on walks, swim and lost 50lb. Not bad for 40 I thought but I wanted more. I loved MA as a kid but with the extra weight I walked around with for so many years took a toll on my knees. I asked a few MA friends and they suggested I try WC. So I found a school and started to go. I admit the stance is killer but after a month and half of a few classes each week, Knees are amazingly better. I mean I am not about to go on wind sprints but I can at least walk up stairs again and not have to worry about tripping up the stairs because I can't lift my knees.

There is too much anger in the world for me to want to hurt people. I have gotten too old to want to inflict my will on people now lol...

 

[Xue Sheng]

Anywhere you see Wing Chun used live really. You can do all the chi sau and drilling you want, but those things will never prepare you for live punches, live distance control, or an opponent that is highly uncooperative to the point of trying to rattle your brains a little..

Nothing prepares you for this except doing it.

And I'm sure you would admit that most WC schools are not, or am mistaken?

So you are basing this on observation and opinion then and claiming it to be proven time and time again. Albeit you may be correct, but you are basing the "time and time again" statement on your opinion based on your observation of the few you have seen. Which by the way is not proof.

 

[Martial D]

So you are basing this on observation and opinion then and claiming it to be proven time and time again. Albeit you may be correct, but you are basing the "time and time again" statement on your opinion based on your observation of the few you have seen. Which by the way is not proof.

And the preponderance of all of the recorded footage of such would indicate what? Time and Time again?

You didn't answer my question. Do you believe the bulk of WC training involves live sparring or that it doesn't? And if you think that it does, where is the evidence that it works?

Call me a jerk if you want, but I'm just not having the 'it works on the street but not in a cage because reasons' non argument.

 

[Martial D]

So you are basing this on observation and opinion then and claiming it to be proven time and time again. Albeit you may be correct, but you are basing the "time and time again" statement on your opinion based on your observation of the few you have seen. Which by the way is not proof.

As an addendum to my last post, you might have forgotten that I AM a WC guy, since the 90s. I was initially trained just like most other WC guys, with a ton of forms, chi sau, and drills. It wasn't until I added live sparring I found a way to make it 'work', it was useless out of the box. This is something I continue to work on to this day..I actually just got back from mma class. I continue to find new ways to apply it and let me tell you, it looks very little like that traditional WC I learned at the beginning and trained in for years.

 

[Xue Sheng]

And the preponderance of all of the recorded footage of such would indicate what? Time and Time again?

You didn't answer my question. Do you believe the bulk of WC training involves live sparring or that it doesn't? And if you think that it does, where is the evidence that it works?

Call me a jerk if you want, but I'm just not having the 'it works on the street but not in a cage because reasons' non argument.

You may want to read my post again, especially the now bolded and underlined section

So you are basing this on observation and opinion then and claiming it to be proven time and time again. Albeit you may be correct, but you are basing the "time and time again" statement on your opinion based on your observation of the few you have seen. Which by the way is not proof.

I did not call you a jerk, I do not want to argue but you are looking at videos and you have seen things in class and it still boils down to "you are right because you say you are".... if you had done a scientific study on this and then produced your findings...well then you could say "Proof"

Like I originally said in my original post to the OP...train JKD. If one does not like, or is not happy with Wing Chun and its way of training, but if they still want something close to wing chun that trains the way they want....train JKD.

As an addendum to my last post, you might have forgotten that I AM a WC guy, since the 90s. I was initially trained just like most other WC guys, with a ton of forms, chi sau, and drills. It wasn't until I added live sparring I found a way to make it 'work', it was useless out of the box. This is something I continue to work on to this day..I actually just got back from mma class. I continue to find new ways to apply it and let me tell you, it looks very little like that traditional WC I learned at the beginning and trained in for years.

Did not forget, did not know, and to be honest did not care......

Don't doubt what you are finding in MMA, found similar things about Xingyiquan from my little bit of training of JKD. But I also learned an awful lot in a cross style sparing group I was part of in the early 90s

Bottom-line here is that it seems to me, and maybe I am reading more into your statements that you have made...I feel that you want to argue, I don't, sorry.

 

[Martial D]

You may want to read my post again, especially the now bolded and underlined section



I did not call you a jerk, I do not want to argue but you are looking at videos and you have seen things in class and it still boils down to "you are right because you say you are".... if you had done a scientific study on this and then produced your findings...well then you could say "Proof"

Like I originally said in my original post to the OP...train JKD. If one does not like, or is not happy with Wing Chun and its way of training, but if they still want something close to wing chun that trains the way they want....train JKD.



Did not forget, did not know, and to be honest did not care......

Don't doubt what you are finding in MMA, found similar things about Xingyiquan from my little bit of training of JKD. But I also learned an awful lot in a cross style sparing group I was part of in the early 90s

Bottom-line here is that it seems to me, and maybe I am reading more into your statements that you have made...I feel that you want to argue, I don't, sorry.

First, proof is the exclusive realm of math and hard liquor, science is done by weighing evidence.

You could easily falsify what I said too. Show me a school, anywhere, of any style..doesn't have to be WC, that produces people that can fight without doing any sort of sparring. Just one counter example is all you would need.

Second, JKD isn't Wing Chun. I honestly find it weird that you would say 'go do jkd if you don't like wing chun' when I didn't say anything about not liking Wing Chun. What I don't like is that my beloved art has become a joke in the ma community because it gets hyped up as something it usually isn't..and not because of composition but because of ineffective training methods.

As for 'feelings' I feel your last post was unnecessarilly defensive. Why is that? Do you practice WC? Do you feel effective WC fighters can be produced by doing forms and chi sau?

You say you don't want to argue but it was you that responded to me initially, with an argument.

 

[Xue Sheng]

First, proof is the exclusive realm of math and hard liquor, science is done by weighing evidence.

You could easily falsify what I said too. Show me a school, anywhere, of any style..doesn't have to be WC, that produces people that can fight without doing any sort of sparring. Just one counter example is all you would need.

Second, JKD isn't Wing Chun. I honestly find it weird that you would say 'go do jkd if you don't like wing chun' when I didn't say anything about not liking Wing Chun. What I don't like is that my beloved art has become a joke in the ma community because it gets hyped up as something it usually isn't..and not because of composition but because of ineffective training methods.

As for 'feelings' I feel your last post was unnecessarilly defensive. Why is that? Do you practice WC? Do you feel effective WC fighters can be produced by doing forms and chi sau?

You say you don't want to argue but it was you that responded to me initially, with an argument.

But I was not responding to you, I was responding to the OP ,macher, and you responded to that post

Your not following what I said, that or you are intentionally making accusation in a attempt to escalate this to an argument. Arguments are worthless, they are 1, 2 or more people attempting to force their opinions down the throat of others and they generally get nowhere. A discussion is much more productive, it is generally folks trying to learn...

And I never said "you" Martial D should go for JKD. I said this

Like I originally said in my original post to the OP...train JKD. If one does not like, or is not happy with Wing Chun and its way of training, but if they still want something close to wing chun that trains the way they want....train JKD.

The rest of that goes into if you like something similar to Wing Chun then JKD. That is all... It all goes to the OP...what you do is all up to you. You want MMA, awesome you don't want JKD...that's cool too..

And if you would read what I have been posting, without hostility and without attempting to start an argument, you would see that I have been, for the most part, agreeing with you.....

 

[PiedmontChun]

Yep. That's pretty much how our club is. The students are older guys and some have health concerns -- for example one is a heart transplant recipient. They want something more "punchy-fighty" than typical tai chi, but they don't really want to fight. And (this part kinda confuses me) no one like to grapple or do WC sweeps throws. Wierd, because that stuff can be really fun.

Oh well. It's the group we have, and with going on sixty-three and half crippled with old injuries, I accept that. At least I have another 62-year-old crippled training partner I do escrima with who does like to mix it up. When I come limping home all beat up, my wife doesn't understand why I'm smiling.

Agreed. A senior student I trained with in WT was a prior Karate practitioner, from a very hard style of karate. In his older age (almost 60 years old and semi-retired), he liked WT/WC because it focused on relaxed force and developing some springiness, challenged him in a very different way. He would spar with us too, but dialed back a bit for his age. Some guys were eager to spar harder and do ground work stuff when the subject came up though.

My thoughts to the OP could be summed as "You might be right about Wing Chun in some sense, but you haven't earned having a qualified opinion on it". It just makes no sense have confidence in your opinion of an art or its perceived weaknesses without actually trying it. Its putting the cart before the horse. If your perceived weakness about the system concern you enough, then don't do it. Find another art. Don't train something you feel like you have to question or doubt every step of the way.

You honestly won't find much Wing Chun with quality emphasis on the ground whatsoever. If you want to train WC, then mix it up with some MMA guys for some of that, or train a grappling art at the same time, then maybe do that. But WC is a striking based system with some minor grappling components. In 19th century China it was complete. In 21th century Western world a good high school wrestler would school a TCMA artist on how to stay on their feet.

 

[drop bear]

Agreed. A senior student I trained with in WT was a prior Karate practitioner, from a very hard style of karate. In his older age (almost 60 years old and semi-retired), he liked WT/WC because it focused on relaxed force and developing some springiness, challenged him in a very different way. He would spar with us too, but dialed back a bit for his age. Some guys were eager to spar harder and do ground work stuff when the subject came up though.

My thoughts to the OP could be summed as "You might be right about Wing Chun in some sense, but you haven't earned having a qualified opinion on it". It just makes no sense have confidence in your opinion of an art or its perceived weaknesses without actually trying it. Its putting the cart before the horse. If your perceived weakness about the system concern you enough, then don't do it. Find another art. Don't train something you feel like you have to question or doubt every step of the way.

You honestly won't find much Wing Chun with quality emphasis on the ground whatsoever. If you want to train WC, then mix it up with some MMA guys for some of that, or train a grappling art at the same time, then maybe do that. But WC is a striking based system with some minor grappling components. In 19th century China it was complete. In 21th century Western world a good high school wrestler would school a TCMA artist on how to stay on their feet.

So how long do you stay in a training program before you can judge if you have been wasting your time in that program?

 

[pdg]

Arguments are worthless, they are 1, 2 or more people attempting to force their opinions down the throat of others and they generally get nowhere. A discussion is much more productive, it is generally folks trying to learn...

Well, that depends on how you define the word 'argument'...

To have a discussion with differing opinions requires one to make an argument either to support your own view or to challenge an opposing view.

An argument need not be emotional and/or heated, I have had many very productive and enjoyable arguments, and more than a few pointless debates and discussions.

 

[macher]

Agreed. A senior student I trained with in WT was a prior Karate practitioner, from a very hard style of karate. In his older age (almost 60 years old and semi-retired), he liked WT/WC because it focused on relaxed force and developing some springiness, challenged him in a very different way. He would spar with us too, but dialed back a bit for his age. Some guys were eager to spar harder and do ground work stuff when the subject came up though.

My thoughts to the OP could be summed as "You might be right about Wing Chun in some sense, but you haven't earned having a qualified opinion on it". It just makes no sense have confidence in your opinion of an art or its perceived weaknesses without actually trying it. Its putting the cart before the horse. If your perceived weakness about the system concern you enough, then don't do it. Find another art. Don't train something you feel like you have to question or doubt every step of the way.

You honestly won't find much Wing Chun with quality emphasis on the ground whatsoever. If you want to train WC, then mix it up with some MMA guys for some of that, or train a grappling art at the same time, then maybe do that. But WC is a striking based system with some minor grappling components. In 19th century China it was complete. In 21th century Western world a good high school wrestler would school a TCMA artist on how to stay on their feet.

I’ve trained before for long periods of time. And the best training I got was actual sparring. I wanted to know if that’s a center point of WC in general.

 

[KPM]

I’ve trained before for long periods of time. And the best training I got was actual sparring. I wanted to know if that’s a center point of WC in general.

The answer that question...in general....would be a solid "no." But that is starting to change and more schools are starting to include sparring. The problem is that they often try to go from their "classical" training right into sparring and discover they can't get it to work. So by default they end up doing some kind of sloppy "kickboxing-ish" sparring. Some are doing better and actually working on progressive "sparring drills" to learn how to use their Wing Chun and gradually get into "full on" sparring. And some just start including boxing/kickboxing elements in their Wing Chun when they spar because this is more easily workable. So, as I said before, you really just have to check out the school and see how much they emphasize sparring and how they approach it.

 

[Flying Crane]

I’ve trained before for long periods of time. And the best training I got was actual sparring. I wanted to know if that’s a center point of WC in general.

As had been already said, it depends on the school. I’m not sure it is possible to say yes or no in general because no one knows what everyone else is doing, and it doesn’t matter.

If sparring is important to you, then find a wing chun school that is close enough that you can attend, and see what they do. Any school that falls out of your area where you can reasonably expect to attend training, doesn’t matter one way or the other what they do. If you cannot attend the school, if they spar it won’t help you; if they do not spar, it does not matter to you.