How to Find a Wing Chun School That is Modernized

[Martial D]

It is a drill. It forces people to be better fighters. So I do MMA I don't have to wrestle. I do wrestling I do have to wrestle.

I do both then I can either wrestle or not as I choose.

Ya but say you don't wrestle OR do mma, but you do mma drills and wrestling drills. What then?

 

[PiedmontChun]

I’ve trained before for long periods of time. And the best training I got was actual sparring. I wanted to know if that’s a center point of WC in general.

Some Wing Chun schools spar quite a bit, some not so much. It just can vary depending on lineage, the individual instructor, the type of students they have, etc. Whether or not they believe sparring is being necessary to develop good Wing Chun skill is a good indicator. I would be wary of instructors who believe it is not necessary. Sparring as a beginner is going to be very crude and basic, and Chi Sau will be awkward and come very slowly, but as one develops the ability to flow and react in Chi Sau, it can gradually be ramped up, become more unscripted, eventually be completely dynamic and unscripted, and the connection between Chi Sau and actual sparring becomes much more apparent.

 

[macher]

As had been already said, it depends on the school. I’m not sure it is possible to say yes or no in general because no one knows what everyone else is doing, and it doesn’t matter.

If sparring is important to you, then find a wing chun school that is close enough that you can attend, and see what they do. Any school that falls out of your area where you can reasonably expect to attend training, doesn’t matter one way or the other what they do. If you cannot attend the school, if they spar it won’t help you; if they do not spar, it does not matter to you.

I’ll be checking out this school tomorrow...

Traditional Wing Chun KungFu North American Headquarters | Traditional Wing Chun KungFu North American Headquarters

 

[Tony Dismukes]

BTW I added the above in the interest of honesty. I fully support efforts to keep WC evolving and effective as a fighting art ...but I don't think the activity needs to be the exclusive domain of fighters. Yes, they should be it's heart and soul, and its "laboratory", but there is room for everybody to participate ...so long as we are all honest with ourselves about what we are doing.

Everybody should recognize that there is no magic to kung fu. Of course you have to fight if you want to be a fighter.

I agree with this, but I'll add that the "non-fighters" in a school have a greater chance of learning functional skills if they are interacting with, training with, and learning from actual fighters rather than just learning from a non-fighter who learned from a non-fighter who learned from a non-fighter who learned from an actual fighter 60 years ago. The lessons of experience get diluted and distorted the more you get removed from the source.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I agree with this, but I'll add that the "non-fighters" in a school have a greater chance of learning functional skills if they are interacting with, training with, and learning from actual fighters rather than just learning from a non-fighter who learned from a non-fighter who learned from a non-fighter who learned from an actual fighter 60 years ago. The lessons of experience get diluted and distorted the more you get removed from the source.

Just a question, what is your definition of a "fighter" within the context of your post? Should probably ask the same question of @geezer

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Just a question, what is your definition of a "fighter" within the context of your post? Should probably ask the same question of @geezer

In the context of geezer's post that I was responding to, I took "fighter" to refer to someone who has tested their combative skills in some sort of hard contact rough-and-tumble environment. That could be someone like a LEO or bouncer, someone who has gotten into a significant number of street altercations, or a competitor in some form of full-contact martial sport, like MMA, boxing, or kickboxing.

I'd say it's really more of a spectrum than a strictly binary classification. I consider myself to be more "fighter-adjacent" then a full-fledged fighter. I've been in a few street altercations, I've fought a couple of amateur kickboxing matches in the ring. I've done some grappling competitions. I've participated in a significant number of SCA heavy weapons tournaments. That experience gives me a leg up on martial artists who have never done more than cooperative drills, but it pales in comparison to some of my training partners who have had dozens of professional fights or decades of LEO experience.

 

[Danny T]

I’ve trained before for long periods of time. And the best training I got was actual sparring. I wanted to know if that’s a center point of WC in general.

In my experience sparring isn't the center point in most martial arts. I think it to be an important aspect if one wants to really know, understand, and be a competent fighter but isn't the center point. Even in most fighting schools/gyms though I know of some that is seems to the most important. People there grow very quickly to a point but don't grow much afterwards because they don't learn or work on new things or high skills. Not all martial artists nor all martial arts are about fighting though fighting moves or actions are utilized as the main premise.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Just a question, what is your definition of a "fighter" within the context of your post?

In the context of geezer's post that I was responding to, I took "fighter" to refer to someone who has tested their combative skills in some sort of hard contact rough-and-tumble environment. That could be someone like a LEO or bouncer, someone who has gotten into a significant number of street altercations, or a competitor in some form of full-contact martial sport, like MMA, boxing, or kickboxing.

I'd say it's really more of a spectrum than a strictly binary classification. I consider myself to be more "fighter-adjacent" then a full-fledged fighter. I've been in a few street altercations, I've fought a couple of amateur kickboxing matches in the ring. I've done some grappling competitions. I've participated in a significant number of SCA heavy weapons tournaments. That experience gives me a leg up on martial artists who have never done more than cooperative drills, but it pales in comparison to some of my training partners who have had dozens of professional fights or decades of LEO experience.

Thank You. I was asking because there are some who only look at a "fighter" only as someone who fights in competitions in rings and on mats in controlled environments.

I agree with your definition by the way

 

[KPM]

I’ll be checking out this school tomorrow...

Traditional Wing Chun KungFu North American Headquarters | Traditional Wing Chun KungFu North American Headquarters

That's a good one! Keith Mazza is top-notch!

 

[macher]

That's a good one! Keith Mazza is top-notch!

Oh so Mazza has a good rep in Wing Chun circles?

 

[KPM]

Oh so Mazza has a good rep in Wing Chun circles?

Yes! Mazza is Grandmaster Cheung's main representative in the US. He has taught hand-to-hand tactics to military and law enforcement. I've never met him but have seen seminar video footage. He seems like a good teacher and very "down to earth."

 

[macher]

Yes! Mazza is Grandmaster Cheung's main representative in the US. He has taught hand-to-hand tactics to military and law enforcement. I've never met him but have seen seminar video footage. He seems like a good teacher and very "down to earth."

Thanks. Going there Saturday morning for a complimentary class. They have a lot of days and times for classes.

 

[drop bear]

Ya but say you don't wrestle OR do mma, but you do mma drills and wrestling drills. What then?

Depends on the drill. There is a drill we use for MMA that seems pretty good. We call it jujutsu.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Even in most fighting schools/gyms though I know of some that is seems to the most important. People there grow very quickly to a point but don't grow much afterwards because they don't learn or work on new things or high skills.

Agree and that's the issue. I have seen people who had

- sparred for 6 years and can only do jab and cross.
- wrestled for 6 years and cannot even do a hip throw.

What's the problem here? IMO, you can only "test" your MA skill in spar/wrestle. You can't "develop" your MA skill in spar/wrestle. So spar/wrestle is not enough.

Can you accidentally make your foot sweep work in sparring if you have never trained foot sweep? I don't think so.

 

[Martial D]

Agree and that's the issue. I have seen people who had

- sparred for 6 years and can only do jab and cross.
- wrestled for 6 years and cannot even do a hip throw.

What's the problem here? IMO, you can only "test" your MA skill in spar/wrestle. You can't "develop" your MA skill in spar/wrestle. So spar/wrestle is not enough.

So how do you develop timing, learn to read tells and telegraph's , learn to control distance, learn to compensate for when you get those things wrong etc through cooperative drills?

Would you say these things aren't fighting skills? I would say they are equally if not more important than techniques.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

So how do you develop timing, learn to read tells and telegraph's , learn to control distance, learn to compensate for when you get those things wrong etc through cooperative drills?

Would you say these things aren't fighting skills? I would say they are equally if not more important than techniques.

What you may call

- "technique", I call it "finish strategy - how to finish a fight". For example, a punch on the face.
- "fighting skill", I call it "entering strategy - how to set up finish move". For example, use groin kick to set up a face punch.

You develop

- finish strategies through partner drills.
- entering strategies through sparring/wrestling.

For example, if you want to develop "foot sweep", during

- partner drill, your opponent will put weight on his leading leg and give you that opportunity to sweep him down.
- sparring/wrestling, your opponent will try very hard not to give you that opportunity. You then need to create that opportunity for yourself. There are many ways to bait your opponent to shift weight on his leading leg. You just cannot train all those methods in your partner drills.

 

[KPM]

So how do you develop timing, learn to read tells and telegraph's , learn to control distance, learn to compensate for when you get those things wrong etc through cooperative drills?
.

You do that through semi-cooperative drills. That's what "progressive sparring" is.

 

[Martial D]

You do that through semi-cooperative drills. That's what "progressive sparring" is.

I know what it is, but I disagree that it's going to really prepare you for anything. There's a huge difference between 'be ready for these three things' and 'be ready for anything'

 

[macher]

So how do you develop timing, learn to read tells and telegraph's , learn to control distance, learn to compensate for when you get those things wrong etc through cooperative drills?

Would you say these things aren't fighting skills? I would say they are equally if not more important than techniques.

Years ago I practiced Bagua was in a group setting. We would practice form for the first 1/2 of class then we would spar the 2nd 1/2. We would also visit other schools of different MA’s and they would visit us for sparring sessions. His emphasis was on actual implementation of technique in real life scenarios. That you don’t have to be rigid with the form but the basic principles

 

[macher]

Can Wing Chun ‘merge’ with boxing or visa versa? I’ve boxed and best part of boxing is sparring. Boxing with foot work etc can help you get into close range where you’ll be abble to apply Wing Chun principles.