How the Japanese view of the black belt

[Hyoho]

Well from my own observations I would say that orange belt (the third belt) is often the dividing line where students become serious.

I would say brown belt is the dividing line. The beginners black belt says you are now official and should not be using your skills outside the dojo.

 

[HighKick]

Well from my own observations I would say that orange belt (the third belt) is often the dividing line where students become serious. Belt systems of course vary from dojo to dojo in terms of colors and the order that they go in but its common, at least from what I've seen, for orange to be the third belt where the order goes white, yellow, orange. I would say many, if not most students, don't make it to orange.

The martial arts has a very high turnover rate. Lots of people try it out for a little while, just to see what it's like, and then once their curiosity is satisfied they'll move on. As such many students will drop out at white belt, or they might decide to get their first belt after white belt which is often a yellow belt and then drop out after that. This is just what I've seen that many students will just try it out for a little while and maybe go up one belt and then decide it's not for them. As such, you could say that orange belt (or whatever the third belt in your system is) is the dividing line.

To make it (belt) color-blind, I would say 8-months to 1-year is the dividing line for a 'serious' student.

 

[Fungus]

To make it (belt) color-blind, I would say 8-months to 1-year is the dividing line for a 'serious' student.

While I wouldn't call myself not serious by any means,I consider myself still a beginner, and I have been doing karate soon 2 years.

Once you realize how long time it takes to master certain things, 2 years is not much imo.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Well from my own observations I would say that orange belt (the third belt) is often the dividing line where students become serious. Belt systems of course vary from dojo to dojo in terms of colors and the order that they go in but its common, at least from what I've seen, for orange to be the third belt where the order goes white, yellow, orange. I would say many, if not most students, don't make it to orange.

The martial arts has a very high turnover rate. Lots of people try it out for a little while, just to see what it's like, and then once their curiosity is satisfied they'll move on. As such many students will drop out at white belt, or they might decide to get their first belt after white belt which is often a yellow belt and then drop out after that. This is just what I've seen that many students will just try it out for a little while and maybe go up one belt and then decide it's not for them. As such, you could say that orange belt (or whatever the third belt in your system is) is the dividing line.

Within NGA, purple is the 5th (white, yellow, blue, green, purple, brown, black), and a point at which students typically showed understanding of the art and real skill. It's probably later in the timeline than most styles, because there's an underlying concept (aiki) that takes a long time to get competent at. Until that starts to settle in, the techniques are functional, but not quite the same.

To make it (belt) color-blind, I would say 8-months to 1-year is the dividing line for a 'serious' student.

Interesting. We looked at purple because for most folks it meant they'd been training about 3 years. At minimum, they'd have been at 18 months, but I never saw anyone come close to that.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Well it's common for people in general, particularly children, to try a wide variety of stuff out. I tried tennis out for a while and took some lessons. I also tried out golf. I did a few years of equestrian. I used to build models where you would put together cars, trains, airplanes, etc. out of plastic parts. So lots of people will try stuff out for a while to see what it's like and martial arts is no exception.

I think it matters how good you are at attracting new students. I was bad at it, but my retention was high (nearly all students stayed for more than 6 months - most for more than a year). The more you attract, the more (number-wise) you will have around in a year. But you'll also lose a higher proportion, because you'll attract more people who are doing what you speak of here. I was harder to find, less convenient, and didn't market, so if someone found me and started training, they were usually quite interested already, so less likely to quit as soon.

To be clear, I'd rather have attracted more and had this issue.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I believe so. For all the belts under the black belt the ranks are referred to by the belt color that represents them (white belt, blue belt, and so forth.) For the ranks of first degree and above the ranks are referred to as degrees rather than Dans. When you first get a black belt you are first degree. When you get to seventh degree you wear a belt of alternating red and black colors called a coral belt. When you get to eighth degree you wear a belt of alternating red and white colors, also called a coral belt. For ninth and tenth degree it's a solid red belt.

I believe that in this post you were talking about BJJ, so I'll just point out one little inaccuracy. Unlike just about every other art I know that uses black belt ranks, a newly promoted black belt is not a first degree BB. They're just a black belt. The first degree comes 3 years later when they get their first stripe on their belt. Just a little difference in terminology.

GJJ uses stripes, where other styles use colors. If they use 2 stripes per belt (not sure if that's accurate) and 3 colors (off the top of my head, I think that's right?), then they have 8 steps between plain white and plain black. I don't see a significant functional difference - most styles use stripes beyond shodan. Both are visible indicators of some sort of progress. Stripes are just easier than changing the belt as often.

I personally like fewer steps in visual indicators, but that's likely just because that's what I'm used to - the NGAA uses 4 colored belts between white and black, and I used the same in my curriculum (though I briefly reduced that to 3).

For BJJ schools that use stripes, it's 4 stripes before the next belt. But not all schools even use stripes and for those that do, the stripes aren't generally considered to indicate a separate rank and they're not always handed out in a particularly systematic way. I view them primarily as an encouragement tool. Actual belt promotions are spread out pretty far and often students may not realize how much they are improving, because their sparring partners are improving along with them. Handing out a stripe is a way for me to say "hey, I know it feels like you haven't gotten any better over the last 6 months, but I've been watching and you really have."

 

[Gerry Seymour]

For BJJ schools that use stripes, it's 4 stripes before the next belt. But not all schools even use stripes and for those that do, the stripes aren't generally considered to indicate a separate rank and they're not always handed out in a particularly systematic way. I view them primarily as an encouragement tool. Actual belt promotions are spread out pretty far and often students may not realize how much they are improving, because their sparring partners are improving along with them. Handing out a stripe is a way for me to say "hey, I know it feels like you haven't gotten any better over the last 6 months, but I've been watching and you really have."

That's a valid distinction. I think that may exist in other systems that use stripes, though not in the same way (all other systems I know of that use stripes or ranks use some sort of formal testing for all of them). Though I have heard others refer to ranks that way, so I'd be interested in hearing if there are other systems that have ranks along the way that are more/less emphasized, which would be more analogous to what you're describing.

 

[Hot Lunch]

That's a valid distinction. I think that may exist in other systems that use stripes, though not in the same way (all other systems I know of that use stripes or ranks use some sort of formal testing for all of them). Though I have heard others refer to ranks that way, so I'd be interested in hearing if there are other systems that have ranks along the way that are more/less emphasized, which would be more analogous to what you're describing.

There's a Shorin-ryu dojo (of a totally different lineage than all the other Shorin-ryu dojos around here) not too far from me that does this. I don't mind it in BJJ since you're stuck at each belt for at least two years, which means that there's going to be a world of difference between a no-stripe blue belt and a four-stripe blue belt. In karate, where you're wearing a colored belt for mere months, I'd feel like stripes are for children - UNLESS they indicate separate kyu grades.

 

[PhotonGuy]

I would say brown belt is the dividing line. The beginners black belt says you are now official and should not be using your skills outside the dojo.

From my experience most students drop out before reaching brown belt.

 

[PhotonGuy]

To make it (belt) color-blind, I would say 8-months to 1-year is the dividing line for a 'serious' student.

Yes, although many students will drop out even before that, from what I've seen.

 

[PhotonGuy]

While I wouldn't call myself not serious by any means,I consider myself still a beginner, and I have been doing karate soon 2 years.

Once you realize how long time it takes to master certain things, 2 years is not much imo.

It depends on how much karate you've been doing within those 2 years.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Within NGA, purple is the 5th (white, yellow, blue, green, purple, brown, black), and a point at which students typically showed understanding of the art and real skill. It's probably later in the timeline than most styles, because there's an underlying concept (aiki) that takes a long time to get competent at. Until that starts to settle in, the techniques are functional, but not quite the same.

So what would be your rough estimate of the percentage of students that make it to blue belt in that system before dropping out?

 

[Hot Lunch]

It depends on how much karate you've been doing within those 2 years.

I use "beginner" interchangeably with "fresh meat." To me, a yellow belt who's close to orange no longer fits that.

I think "novice" is probably the better word for what Fungus considers himself.

 

[PhotonGuy]

I believe that in this post you were talking about BJJ, so I'll just point out one little inaccuracy. Unlike just about every other art I know that uses black belt ranks, a newly promoted black belt is not a first degree BB. They're just a black belt. The first degree comes 3 years later when they get their first stripe on their belt. Just a little difference in terminology.

That might be the case. Different styles have different definitions for various ranks. I remember briefly taking lessons at a Kenpo school and over there, when you first got a black belt you were a "student" black belt. Then the next time you got promoted you were a first degree black belt. Definitions vary.

For BJJ schools that use stripes, it's 4 stripes before the next belt. But not all schools even use stripes and for those that do, the stripes aren't generally considered to indicate a separate rank and they're not always handed out in a particularly systematic way. I view them primarily as an encouragement tool. Actual belt promotions are spread out pretty far and often students may not realize how much they are improving, because their sparring partners are improving along with them. Handing out a stripe is a way for me to say "hey, I know it feels like you haven't gotten any better over the last 6 months, but I've been watching and you really have."

Yes where I do BJJ you get four stripes per belt and then after you get your fourth stripe the next time you get promoted will be when you get your next belt, except for the brown belt which does not have stripes. When you reach black belt you do get stripes on your belt although Im not sure how it works at that point although I believe you can get more than four stripes at that point.

 

[PhotonGuy]

The royal family gets a lot of money, but it's a tiny percentage of what people pay in taxes. A quick search said it was less than $2 per citizen in 2022.

And yet there are people who want to abolish royalty in the UK. There was this woman saying that Charles makes over a thousand times the average British salary just for waving and shaking hands which she thought was absurd.

 

[Hot Lunch]

And yet there are people who want to abolish royalty in the UK. There was this woman saying that Charles makes over a thousand times the average British salary just for waving and shaking hands which she thought was absurd.

Far be it from me to tell others how their country should be, as I'm not a Brit - but I don't think a monarchy makes much sense if the monarch doesn't at least exercise executive power. I think the perfect model for what a monarchy should be is Liechtenstein. The Prince actually exercises executive power that is subject to similar checks and balances as the executive branch in the US. I'd much rather the country be run by someone who was trained from birth to do so than our current system. When the choice is between doing what's popular and what's right, they're in a position to do what's right. There's no second term for them to win.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

When you reach black belt you do get stripes on your belt although Im not sure how it works at that point although I believe you can get more than four stripes at that point.

In BJJ, degrees of black belt are mostly just based on time in rank while continuing to train actively. The first 3 degrees take 3 years apiece, so after 9 years as a BJJ black belt, I‘m a 3rd degree BB. The next 2 degrees take 5 years each, so it will be another 10 years before I reach 5th degree. After that it goes to 7 years and so on. I should be eligible for my 9th degree when I turn 93 years old. It’s going to be a big party. All of you are invited.

The highest rank of 10th degree is reserved for the (now deceased) five Gracie brothers who started the whole thing.

 

[isshinryuronin]

I don't think a monarchy makes much sense if the monarch doesn't at least exercise executive power.

A monarchy where most all the power is entrusted to elected officials still makes sense. The king or emperor is a symbol of the country, a living embodiment of the flag so to speak, as well as being a connection with the nation's history and identity. While not having much legal power, the monarch can provide considerable clout by their mere appearance or statement at a function as a symbol of the nation.

When the choice is between doing what's popular and what's right, they're in a position to do what's right. There's no second term for them to win.

Sadly, this state of affairs is all too true. Needing to get elected by the masses has too much to do with marketing and that costs money and influence. The idea has been floated in the US for 1 six-year term without being able to take part in the following election. This would greatly reduce the president's relying on popularity. The downside is there's an extra two years to his term to screw up. As the saying goes, democracy is flawed, but still better than most any alternative.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

So what would be your rough estimate of the percentage of students that make it to blue belt in that system before dropping out?

I’ll have to reach waaaay back and try to remember what the flow was like at my instructor’s school - the only place I can really speak to. Bear in mind, I’m using 20-year-old memory.

About half didn’t make it to yellow. Maybe more, since I’ll have forgotten all those who only came for a singgle class or two. Probably 75% of those who did make yellow, made it to blue. So, rough estimate, maybe 40-ish percent made it to blue. And that seems high to me.

 

[PhotonGuy]

I'd much rather the country be run by someone who was trained from birth to do so than our current system.

That's not going to happen in the USA which is supposed to be ultimately run by the citizens. As such, most of our leaders are put in place by the citizens by popular vote.

When the choice is between doing what's popular and what's right, they're in a position to do what's right. There's no second term for them to win.

The thing is defining what is right. What is right and what is wrong? In a country such as the USA it's supposed to be the people that make that determination so in the USA what's popular IS what's right. Im not saying it's a perfect system but that's just how it is.