How Military Culture Turned America Into the land of SWAT

[Carol]

This gets exacerbated by some of the overzealous politicians behind some of the decisions. For example, last year the city of Keene (home to a large state college and known as an area for a lot of political activism) was selected by DHS to get a Bearcat. The purchase would be paid for by federal dollars, but the city would have to maintain it, make it available when mutual aid is needed, etc. The mayor announces "We're getting a tank!" and half the town freaks out. My own city has had one for 10 years and no one has batted an eye. Our mayor hasn't made a bit deal of it, and it has likely been used more of a relief resource than anything else (keeping officers warm while in a drawn-out situation during cold weather, etc).

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Most LEO I know make a decent living. Decent is the word here. Not too much, not too little. With high risk and little thanks for their efforts at times. When I worked for the DNR in a law enforcement capacity the pay was decent. (actually for me at the time it was good) Yet, I was quite a bit younger and in my life position now the pay would not be as good. Most of the LEO's that I know are from bigger cities or work at universities at the moment with a few being on tactical teams. (those areas generally are paid more but they are a far cry from being over paid) I do remember more than a few friends though working as part time police officers before they got a full time job. There pay was so poor that they typically worked another full time job doing some thing until they got that full time LEO job. Some of them made just above a dollar more than minimum wage and yes these were guys who had already gone through the police academy. I knew one guy who worked part time like this for about 5 years and eventually landed a full time gig making around $27,000 and boy was he happy! In general our police are underpaid overall in my opinion. I am not surprised at all to hear of someone in a Californian small town making $30,000 to start. Not surprised at all!!! Nor am I surprised one bit by TGace stating that he had a whopping $6,000 to spend on gear, etc. for his SWAT team last year. I would imagine that to be more the norm than the exception.


As to equipment that our police are utilizing. Well think about what jks9199 wrote above about patrol officers having sufficient fire power. When an officer responds to an incident we want him or her to have the tools to do the job if necessary. That would include them having the capability to utilize a rifle, shotgun, semi automatic handgun, taser, expandable baton, knife, pepper spray, handcuffs, etc. They of course also need some protection ie. vests, etc. They need a well equipment car with computer hook up, video cameras, etc. Now that is just for an individual officer working alone. However, say an officer comes across a armed hostage situation, etc. Then they are probably going to need backup and local or county, state swat, etc. We live in a pretty violent society with crime happening every day. We need personal that can handle a violent situation when needed. Just look at my blog post yesterday detailing a dangerous situation that resulted in a good outcome for the intended victims: The Instinctive Edge Thank god for the officer who acted in the end. In some areas like New York where 911 happened we probably need a show of force in certain areas so that criminals and terrorists and the like understand that there are people around who can handle the job. I can remember being there just after 911 and seeing a good show of force and I was okay with it. Made me feel a bit safer. Yet, there of course needs to be balance. That balance may be a little hard to achieve and it would appear that in some areas they went a little over board. So at some point a correction will have to be made.

As to improper use of force, police brutality of the occasional misappropriation of manpower of SWAT, etc. Officers acting improperly or being aloof, etc. I have not met an officer that I know who would not roll their eyes when they hear about such things. Meaning they don't like it either because it makes there jobs harder and diminishes their chosen profession!

As to the idea of "Shock and Awe". Well let me tell you if you are involved in a dangerous situation wouldn't you want to have serious and I do mean serious people, equipment and over whelming manpower with you? I do not know of anyone who would answer "No" to that. That is unless they are not mentally unstable!

In regards to politicians! Well they screw a lot of things up. However, we all know that already!!!

 

[oftheherd1]

Sounds like there is some important data missing from the TV scenario. Starting pay for an officer where I live in NH is over 50k, and our cost of living is nothing like California's. Some police officers (like some college professors) are among the highest paid public employees in the state (in general - not just here)


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About 1983, my then operations officer and I were contemplating retiring from the military. He had heard of some crime scene processing jobs in California. I called. The jobs started at about 16K per year. I thought I had heard her wrong. She confirmed that. Then I asked if it was negotiable based on experience. Nope. As it turned out, we both spent several more years in the military.

I think it's less about a SWAT team having the right equipment--of course it should--and more about the ever-increasing use of Special Weapons and Tactics. They're less special when they become standard procedure for relatively minor arrests.

That's really the issue. It seems like "shock and awe" is becoming the norm. Overwhelming force for everything without regard for circumstance.

I think I know what you are trying to say Makalakumu, but shock and awe is better than death. The New York Police Department used to allow they could sometimes end a hostage or barricade situation simply by racking a shotgun loudly. Was that intended to scare and intimidate? Certainly. Did it work? Apparently it often did. That as opposed to breaking in and shooting the suspect and maybe being shot as well.

Are there abuses? Statistically, it figures there will be. If it is systemic in a department, that is a big problem. If it happens only by an occasional officer, I would hope their own department will take them down if there is no other way to correct it.

On an unrelated topic, did you know there are MA instructors that are reported to abuse their position and trust by engaging in sex acts with students, sometimes against their will?

Depends on very many factors -- but lots of places in the US don't pay their cops particularly well. Virginia State Police start at $36207. Roanoke City PD starts at $35445. While there are plenty of places that pay police well, there are also plenty where cops work two jobs or spend a lot of time working details and OT assignments.

Point taken. Many places require high standards, including education, or you can't be hired. Then you get hired and your job is to take on many people who are bound and determined to show you and their peers, that they are tougher and don't care how bad they hurt you to prove it (but don't hurt them).

 

[arnisador]

When we talk about police pay, let's put in the broader context of compensation--the pension benefits are usually excellent, which compensates in part for the pay. (I'm not saying that's good or bad, just that you have to include the whole package.) But in a lot of places I am surprised at how low starting salaries can be for a life-risking job.

 

[oftheherd1]

As to the above link about the NYPD, I personally doubt that all happened, at least in a short period of time as implied. NY is a big place and there are other PDs there, sometimes they all get lumped together. But I wonder if anyone could find a link to an article on what the members of the NYPD have done that is good? I have heard of, and talked to NYPD who were present during 9/11. I never heard anything bad, only good.

My daughters and their friend took a weekend trip to NY shortly after they graduated high school. My wife and I and the other parents were on pins and needles as you might imagine. When they returned, they related that while they were trying to check into the hotel where they had reservations, they were accosted by two of New York's finest. They began to ask them what they were doing and why they were there. They answered honestly as they had been taught. The officers then told them a few blocks away were some other hotels, about the same price, that were better and didn't tend to rent rooms by the hour as did the one they were about to check in to. They went to the other places and found the neighborhoods and surrounding indeed better. Sort of sorry for the officers. The girls could think of no better way to say thanks than to go to the precinct station on their way back home, and drop off flowers for the two officers. :wavey: :wavey: :wavey:

Anyone else know of any good stories about local or other police officers?

 

[oftheherd1]

Plenty of input to bash law enforcement officers. Nobody wants to share anything about them doing any good for anyone.

A shame.

 

[arnisador]

Plenty of input to bash law enforcement officers. Nobody wants to share anything about them doing any good for anyone.

A shame.

Eh, no, not a shame--just a discussion. No one has disputed that having police is a net positive nor even that SWAT capabilities are sometimes needed. It's about the increasing use of what looks to all appearances to be (para)military police on ever slighter grounds.

 

[Tgace]

I have to admit that some of these 20 man PD's using Tac Teams that use 3/4's of their department to execute arrest warrants that wouldn't meet the thresholds on most therat assessments are not helping....

However the argument using sheer numbers of SWAT uses prove noting eithe IMO....somehow were supposed to think that uniformed or plainclothes officers kicking in a door is somehow "better" because they are not wearing helmets or carrying M4"s...a cop serving a warrant is a cop serving a warrant regardless of what he's wearing/holding. What is improtant is that the right tactics/approach is being used no matter the gear.


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[arnisador]

However the argument using sheer numbers of SWAT uses prove noting eithe IMO....somehow were supposed to think that uniformed or plainclothes officers kicking in a door is somehow "better" because they are not wearing helmets or carrying M4"s...a cop serving a warrant is a cop serving a warrant regardless of what he's wearing/holding.

In principle, yes. But we know that imagery matters...and that mistakes made with more firepower can be more deadly than mistake made with less...and that people are only human and can get "caught up" in a big event like the ones we're talking about. A 5 year old is going to experience and remember his dad's arrest in very different ways if it's two plainclothes cops who never draw their weapons vs. 20 men in military outfits barging in with rifles at the ready. I want police to be safe but I also want the citizenry to not feel as though they live in a police state.

What is improtant is that the right tactics/approach is being used no matter the gear.

Agreed.

 

[Tgace]

In principle, yes. But we know that imagery matters...and that mistakes made with more firepower can be more deadly than mistake made with less...and that people are only human and can get "caught up" in a big event like the ones we're talking about. A 5 year old is going to experience and remember his dad's arrest in very different ways if it's two plainclothes cops who never draw their weapons vs. 20 men in military outfits barging in with rifles at the ready. I want police to be safe but I also want the citizenry to not feel as though they live in a police state.



Agreed.

Thing is...many people cant tell the difference between a SWAT team and a group of plainclothes. My narcotics unit has been called SWAT by offenders simply because we wear external vests with POLICE labels on them and our lead man carries a shotgun when we execute our own warrants. We are not a SWAT team (even though I and one of my detectives are indeed SWAT members).

We (narcotics) are about 50/50 on forced entry vs a ruse or waiting for a suspect to leave and take him down outside of the house. Some of these people are not the types you Barney Fife around with...some you can simply talk to, others you don't want to give the option to think about what they are going to do.

And this may sound harsh but I don't care what the 5 yo's experience is in comparison to the tactical necessity . The fathers actions are what caused the situation...if the threat assessment indicates an increased risk then we use the tools and tactics accordingly. Its safer for them and its safer for us.

Id have to see some sort of evidence that more mistakes are being made with "more deadlier firepower" because....as with civilian shootings...handguns account for far more shooting stats than rifles/carbines.

Its the decision to make forced entry....regardless of who is doing it and what they are wearing that is the root of most of the horror stories. Careful consideration of the situation and the need to force entry needs to be made. Sometimes its needed sometimes its not.

The REAL problem...as its almost always is...is leadership decision making. Not equipment.

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[oftheherd1]

Eh, no, not a shame--just a discussion. No one has disputed that having police is a net positive nor even that SWAT capabilities are sometimes needed. It's about the increasing use of what looks to all appearances to be (para)military police on ever slighter grounds.

I'm sorry, I missed anyone saying having police is a net positive or that sometimes SWAT is needed, other than those that support law enforcement. But I took the tenor of yours and Makalakumu's comments to be you were against it most of the time. If I am wrong, my apologies.

And don't get me wrong. I understand that some police have done things that at worst were violations of law, and at best put them and their departments in a bad light. I wish that didn't happen, but it does. COPS are human too. And they often get punished for what they do. The general public just doesn't hear of it that often.

But it is equally wrong when people make statements that imply police acting badly is a norm, at least imho.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Tgace is absolutely right in that tactics, strategy, leadership and sound decision making in good police work is so very important. The vast majority of police matters are handled appropriately with good leadership and sound decision making that keep the officers safe and whom ever is involved also safe. Our law enforcement community is actually better at this than they have ever been. They are more educated, better trained, better equipped and have a huge amount of overall experience built up over hundreds of years of perfecting this craft! That does not of course mean that mistakes are not made or that bad decisions do not happen. Of course they do! However, our Law Enforcement community learns from every mistake made and our legal system also helps in this process by ruling on what is legal or illegal for them to do! Then they go and put everything into real time, real life action. This is a really tough, hard and often thankless job that is some times just not compensated enough!

 

[ballen0351]

Most of the time when the paper or internet says SWAT was involved they weren't. Just because 5 cops knock on your door and 2 have shotguns that's not a swat team. When I shot someone in 05. The papers said repeatedly it was a swat raid. It wasn't there where 3 cops and he called 911 and kept hanging up thats why we where there. Don't believe everything you read folks.

 

[granfire]

Most of the time when the paper or internet says SWAT was involved they weren't. Just because 5 cops knock on your door and 2 have shotguns that's not a swat team. When I shot someone in 05. The papers said repeatedly it was a swat raid. It wasn't there where 3 cops and he called 911 and kept hanging up thats why we where there. Don't believe everything you read folks.

BUT THEY WERE WEARING BLACK FATIGUES!

oh well...
I guess desk jockeys get excited over action just as regular Joes...(yes, the original wording was crude...)

I guess the issue is - as usual - blown out of proportion (unless you are the family of the victim, of course) but it's a case of human error that sadly cost a life.
Most of us are lucky enough were these situations cost us a fender, maybe or whatever negligable item...

But I guess the cluster started with the Zealot instigating illegal behavior thus causing the wreck.


if the story is correct, that is.

(damn, journalism sucks these days...)

 

[ballen0351]

As for pay and benefits also don't believe the hype. I started looking for a new job a few weeks ago to be closer to home. My local sheriff department the best salary they could offer me was 29000. Entry lvl is 24000. The retirement was same plan as county roads guys work until your 65 get 45% The next county over same thing 32000 to start same retirement plan. I make over 70k where I am now with little to no OT I try not to work any if I can help it. Thats with 20 yr retirement at 50%. Guess who didn't leave his job. Police pay is hit or miss. When I left my first police job I made 14 bucks an hour in 2001. When I left my last PD for my current one I instantly got a 23000 pay raise. Even with in states pays can range drastically. I know guys that came here from PA and they made 16 an hour up there with no retirement no health and no equipment they had to buy their own vest and guns.

 

[ballen0351]

BUT THEY WERE WEARING BLACK FATIGUES!

oh well...
I guess desk jockeys get excited over action just as regular Joes...(yes, the original wording was crude...)

I guess the issue is - as usual - blown out of proportion (unless you are the family of the victim, of course) but it's a case of human error that sadly cost a life.
Most of us are lucky enough were these situations cost us a fender, maybe or whatever negligable item...

But I guess the cluster started with the Zealot instigating illegal behavior thus causing the wreck.


if the story is correct, that is.

(damn, journalism sucks these days...)

I hear that same old BDU or black fatigues thing thrown out a lot as well. You know why a lot of PDs moved to them. My duty uniform shirt costs 89.00. You can buy 2 sets of BDUs for one of my shirts. PDs are switching because they are cheap. And officers like then because they are comfortable. I like my external vest carrier because I can take it off if I'm at the station doing paperwork. Wearing a vest for 12 hours straight sucks. it has nothing to do with looking cool or being SWAT

 

[granfire]

I hear that same old BDU or black fatigues thing thrown out a lot as well. You know why a lot of PDs moved to them. My duty uniform shirt costs 89.00. You can buy 2 sets of BDUs for one of my shirts. PDs are switching because they are cheap. And officers like then because they are comfortable. I like my external vest carrier because I can take it off if I'm at the station doing paperwork. Wearing a vest for 12 hours straight sucks. it has nothing to do with looking cool or being SWAT

I was being mean/sarcastic :angel:

but dang...90 smackers for a stupid shirt?! It'll better be from Calvin Klein!

 

[jks9199]

I was being mean/sarcastic :angel:

but dang...90 smackers for a stupid shirt?! It'll better be from Calvin Klein!

Nope. It's essentially a dress shirt, used as a field utility, probably with a zipper replacing most of the buttons (though the buttons remain). You can get an idea by looking at Galls.com. Plus sewing patches, etc. on...

That's one of the problems with patrol uniforms right now. We don't want a soft, beat up military fatigue look -- but what we do isn't really something to be wearing polyester or blend dress clothes, either.

 

[ballen0351]

I was being mean/sarcastic :angel:

but dang...90 smackers for a stupid shirt?! It'll better be from Calvin Klein!

I didn't mean you. This topic cones up a lot on some jeep and offroad forums I go to. Its always about the BDUs and external vest carriers people don't realize that stuff is just cheaper. I personally can't understand why they spend somuch on our uuniforms to begin with but I'm not in charge.ccid be going to DERMO and getting all the old woodland BDUs I can find for free. Save the city some money

 

[ballen0351]

Nope. It's essentially a dress shirt, used as a field utility, probably with a zipper replacing most of the buttons (though the buttons remain). You can get an idea by looking at Galls.com. Plus sewing patches, etc. on...

That's one of the problems with patrol uniforms right now. We don't want a soft, beat up military fatigue look -- but what we do isn't really something to be wearing polyester or blend dress clothes, either.

Yeah plus we have a mesh type spandex in the armpit area. Huge waist of money in my opinion. I can button my own shirt don't need a zipper but who am I?