How Far Are You Willing To Go?

[MJS]

In another thread that was talking about self defense while inside of your car, the subject of using the car as a weapon came up. Another member commented on using a heavy car as a tool in your defense against a simple grab. So, that led me to this thread...

How far and how much force are you willing to use to defend yourself? Are you keeping the threat of a civil suit or jail time in the back of your mind? Do you worry about things like that after the fact?

Keep in mind, the nature of the attack for this discussion, can range from mild to wild. In other words, it could be a street person asking, persistantly for some spare cash to someone who follows you to your destination to confront you for cutting them off in traffic, to someone breaking into your home in the early hours of the AM, while you and your family are sleeping.

Looking forward to your replies!

Mike

 

[Ahriman]

I always keep in mind the possible legal effects. I was lucky enough so far to avoid confronting a determined and prepared attacker, so I only have theories about the wildest extreme of this. Against lower threat levels, I always give them time to give up or reconsider and if they don't, I only use that amount of force which is enough for the situation and later can be justified would it ever get to court. It has never gotten there, the attackers in all cases realized that it would be very hard to convince the judges that they were attacked in fact.
The biggest injuries I dealt so far was deep cuts on their hands and a few broken bones, all of these are considered "serious bodily harm" here, but it's a very wide category containing everything from severe blunt trauma done without weapons to temporal maiming and non-lifethreatening damage done with knives under 120mm of cutting-stabbing length. Hell, everything is in it which was caused by another human and healing take longer time than 8 days.
I hope I'll never have to kill someone, but mainly out of legal consequences. We have a saying that a stupid bastard doesn't worth it - jury gives just as much time in jail for them as for a human.

 

[Brother John]

It's exceedingly important to make certain the level of response meets the level of NEED.

ONLY do as much as is needed to achieve safety, ensure security and regain peace.

Anything else is unethical, immoral and illegal.

Your Brother
John

 

[KenpoTex]

How far and how much force are you willing to use to defend yourself? Are you keeping the threat of a civil suit or jail time in the back of your mind? Do you worry about things like that after the fact?

Whatever level of force is appropriate to neutralize the threat. That may mean using a low level of force like verbal tactics, pushing them away, or using pressure point control. It may also mean drawing my pistol and putting rounds into them until they literally go down, or drawing my knife and doing my sewing-machine impersonation until they go down.

You must have the mindset and willingness to do whatever is necessary and appropriate, or you're wasting your time.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

You absolutely need to do what will be considered reasonable under the circumstances.

What was deemed reasonable will first be addressed by the responding officers, then the district attorney and probably finally a judge if it makes it that far. However, if you act reasonably based on the amount of force/threat coming at you then in general you will probably be viewed as using self defense in a legally permissable way. However, every situation is unique!

 

[tellner]

How far and how much force are you willing to use to defend yourself? Are you keeping the threat of a civil suit or jail time in the back of your mind? Do you worry about things like that after the fact?

Keep in mind, the nature of the attack for this discussion, can range from mild to wild. In other words, it could be a street person asking, persistantly for some spare cash to someone who follows you to your destination to confront you for cutting them off in traffic, to someone breaking into your home in the early hours of the AM, while you and your family are sleeping.

It depends entirely on the nature and degree of the threat. They have to be tempered by your assessment of the situation. What sort of risk are you in right now? Where is the situation headed? Can you escape safely? Are innocent third parties in danger? What resources can you bring to bear?

Put me in a situation and I'll do something. Describe a situation, and I'll give an educated guess as to what I might do. Just saying "What would you do in self defense" is so broad that it is impossible to give any sort of useful answer.

The aggressive panhandler? I'd just keep walking.

Someone trying to follow me for cutting them off? Odds are I'd go somewhere else and not let them know anything about my private life. If there's a police station or car nearby I'd probably park in front of it. Gentle words and a clam attitude are the correct weapons at that point. If it looks like it will escalate it helps if there are witnesses. And I want it to be abundantly clear that whoever it is followed me for frickin' miles to attack me.

Someone breaks into my house and puts my family at risk? There are no limits. They will leave. They will be held for the police in a way that does not put me and mine at any additional risk. Or they will be physically incapable of any sort of aggressive action. If that means they are dead that's too bad for them. I only hope that I will not hesitate a moment longer than necessary to correctly asses the situation if deadly force is required.

<shill type="unpaid">I'd really recommend that anyone who is interested in self defense study the subject in some detail. The no doubts about it, you absolutely have to, best few hundred bucks you can ever spend is on Massad Ayoob's LFI-1 : Judicious Use of Deadly Force. There are others, but this is as good as it gets. Lawyers and a judge in the group I took the class with said it was better than anything they learned in law school. The twenty hours of intense discussion and presentation on exactly these issues should be a prerequisite for martial arts, self defense and practical shooting instructors.</shill>

 

[still learning]

Hello, To use a car for a weapon? ....NOT sure about this? ...unless you can prove "self-defense".

To protect your family and yourself? ...Most of us would do and use what we have to save our family,friends, and self.

NO one wants to go to jail for protecting themselfs. BEST to escape!

Aloha,

 

[ackks10]

In another thread that was talking about self defense while inside of your car, the subject of using the car as a weapon came up. Another member commented on using a heavy car as a tool in your defense against a simple grab. So, that led me to this thread...

How far and how much force are you willing to use to defend yourself? Are you keeping the threat of a civil suit or jail time in the back of your mind? Do you worry about things like that after the fact?

Keep in mind, the nature of the attack for this discussion, can range from mild to wild. In other words, it could be a street person asking, persistantly for some spare cash to someone who follows you to your destination to confront you for cutting them off in traffic, to someone breaking into your home in the early hours of the AM, while you and your family are sleeping.

Looking forward to your replies!

Mike

Hey Mike,whats up, this is how i will put it, when ever you get into something thats going array(thats means out of control ) and you have to defend yourself or your family, you must use ENOUGH FORCE TO CONTROL IT, with out going overboard, at lease in NJ. but if you are sleeping in your home and someone breaks in, in the early am than you must do what you must do to protect your family.
now as far as the car, (thats funny) because it happen to me a while back
i let my son use my car one day with his girlfriend, and the next day as i was coming home from work i had to stop at the store (wawa) as i was coming out these guys (19/20years old)3 of them was standing by my car
(i had a blue probe at the time) well i went to get into my car and the one next to my door called me a name *%#@ (u know what i mean) anyway i just looked at him and said do we know each other?? he said that "oh you were real funny lastnight" (my son) i said you have the wrong person, anyway now the 3 of them was standing by the car, the 1st tried to grab me in a bear hug from behind, ayway i used the car door (it was half open)
to hit him in the groin, the other 2 guys grabbed both of my hands,anyway i did what i had to do, the police came and they know me (u know why Mike), i showed them my id badge, and that was that, sorry this was so long:caffeine: oh btw it was my son that they wanted

 

[Hawke]

To help defend my life and a loved one I will do what I have to do to neutralize the threat.

The old saying of "better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6."

 

[Deaf Smith]

How far and how much force are you willing to use to defend yourself? Are you keeping the threat of a civil suit or jail time in the back of your mind? Do you worry about things like that after the fact?
Mike

Like I tell my students, I'm homicidal... but in a good way!

If I have the choice between living (with the possiblity of jail time and/or law suits) or death, well guess which one I'll pick.

As for jail and law suits, that is why I took LFI-1, taught by Massad Ayoob. It's also why I have taken many courses form very well known instuctors in self defense and shooting. It's why I'm a expert or above shooter in IDPA, it's why (partialy) I'm a 5th dan. It's why (again partialy) I train so much. It's also, partialy again(!), why I teach CHL classes.

I know what to look for on the street, the laws very well, and what to expect after the police come. I also know what to expect if a lawsuit rears it's head. And I keep track of what the laws are in the states I visit as well as the political views of the authorites in those states.

This all above does not mean I'm a killer, but that I'm willing, and skilled enough, to kill to defend myself and those around me if need be.

Deaf

 

[thetruth]

I don't know, thus far I have never had to go far enough for there to be any legal issues.

Cheers
Sam:asian:

 

[MA-Caver]

I don't know, thus far I have never had to go far enough for there to be any legal issues.

Cheers
Sam:asian:

Same here but then again I've never hung around long enough for there to BE legal issues.

I've answered this question before which was phrased differently in a thread. I will go as far as needed to neutralize the threat to me and mine. I've stated that I've never killed and do not like the idea of killing but honestly asking myself and honestly answering... I would not hesitate if the need arises. I can only pray to my God and ask that need will never arise.
I will stop an attacker if I can, I will hurt an attacker if I can, I will try to incapacitate an attacker if I can ... if any one of those will stop the attacker then I will do what is necessary. When all else fails... the ultimatum.

 

[Sukerkin]

It's a good, general, question, Mike and I really only have a very simple answer to it. I'm not being flippant when I say "It depends on how scared I am".

The one time I had to defend myself against those attacking 'with intent', I broke one arm, one leg and ran like heck to the police station. Given that it was three-on-one and there were improvised weapons involved, I was pretty frightened but I still limited myself in what I did. The real 'scare factor' kicked in later when i had time consider what could have happened.

I have often said in times past tho', that the most dangerous person in the world is a surprised and scared martial artist - catch us before our forebrains have time to assess and basal relex will decide things for us.

 

[chinto]

In another thread that was talking about self defense while inside of your car, the subject of using the car as a weapon came up. Another member commented on using a heavy car as a tool in your defense against a simple grab. So, that led me to this thread...

How far and how much force are you willing to use to defend yourself? Are you keeping the threat of a civil suit or jail time in the back of your mind? Do you worry about things like that after the fact?

Keep in mind, the nature of the attack for this discussion, can range from mild to wild. In other words, it could be a street person asking, persistantly for some spare cash to someone who follows you to your destination to confront you for cutting them off in traffic, to someone breaking into your home in the early hours of the AM, while you and your family are sleeping.

Looking forward to your replies!

Mike

I will use what ever force I have to to stop that attack. If I feel the intent of the attacker is to kill me or mine or badly injure them , maximum force possible till the attacker is rendered a non threat to me and mine! If he stops before the ultimate force is used great! but I will do what ever I have to to survive! ( I always pray that I will never have to use that kind of force or any for that matter. I also work hard to be aware of what is going on around me and prevent any kind of violent encounter before it happens!! )

 

[morph4me]

While I would prefer to walk away without any problems, I'm willing and committed to do whatever it takes to allow me to walk away. I've found that most times, my willingness comes through and I haven't had to use more than words in many years. In a self defense situation, worrying about what might happen later could prevent me from dealing effectively with what's happening now.

 

[tshadowchaser]

In truth I do not nor have I ever thought about the legal problems when I had to defend myself. If I do have to defend myself I do so in a way that stops the problem . If that means walking away and having myself called names so be it, if it means just stepping away or aside and having a drunk fall on their face, good, if it means stopping a street attack with force then that is what will happen, if it means hitting someone with a club when they have a weapon or shooting them when they attack me with a weapon in my house then so be it

 

[Rich Parsons]

In another thread that was talking about self defense while inside of your car, the subject of using the car as a weapon came up. Another member commented on using a heavy car as a tool in your defense against a simple grab. So, that led me to this thread...

How far and how much force are you willing to use to defend yourself? Are you keeping the threat of a civil suit or jail time in the back of your mind? Do you worry about things like that after the fact?

Keep in mind, the nature of the attack for this discussion, can range from mild to wild. In other words, it could be a street person asking, persistantly for some spare cash to someone who follows you to your destination to confront you for cutting them off in traffic, to someone breaking into your home in the early hours of the AM, while you and your family are sleeping.

Looking forward to your replies!

Mike

It is not good to be in court. It sucks. Everyone second guesses you. Everyone turns you into the criminal, no matter how "BAD" the other guys was before he got hurt. It Sucks. Did I mention it sucked? (* And I was only a witness in one case, and it still sucked as I knew those involved and the questions of why and why, and how and why did you not just let the other big guy with the axe handle just hit the guy repeatedly? Why did you just not run away and leave the others behind? Our state used to be a MUST Flee state. Luckily recently that has changed.

I dislike the hospital and court even more.

I would not like to consider unable to be in a "suckie" situation.


I am willing to use the force required for me to survive. If I can talk I will. If I can posture I will. If I can control I will. If I have to hurt, it usually means it is on and I am just defending myself.

 

[MJS]

Great replies. Like I said in my OP..the situation can vary. I didn't want to sit here and rattle off 20 scenarios, so thats why I kind of left it open ended. In other words, it may require some use of your imagination.

Like a few others have said, I'm also of the mindset to use the force that is necessary. As tempting as it may be to continue to pummel the guy once he's down, that may not be the best choice, especially if he's not fighting anymore. Talking your way out as well as maintaining an initial defensive, but ready posture is a good start. Weapons...I don't want to take the chance that even if you comply, you'll still get shot or stabbed.

Like a cop, I'm going to do as much as necessary to make sure I get home safe. Personally, I value my life as well as the lives of my loved ones, too much to be a victim.

 

[myusername]

Interesting thread. I echo those who talk about the response being proportianate to the level of threat. I would say that I am willing to go as far as required to protect myself or family.

However, I have enough self awareness to know that my ability to recognise when I need to step my level of defence up a gear may in fact be a little warped due to my previous job working in secure mental health settings. I have become very adept at verbally de-esculating aggressive situations in an artificial environment where I know that if the worst happens I can pull my alarm and have support instantly. In some regards this is a positive and these verbal skills have gotten me out of bother in the past but I also feel that in a street altercation this could lead to an over reliance on verbal skills and slow my realisation of when I need to attack to defend. And that millisecond of doubt or indecision could cost me dearly.

I also wonder for the more seasoned martial artists out there how much control do you actually have to not go a little too far?

I ask this as one of my nurse colleagues were telling me about a chap that they used to work with on a mental health ward who was a very experienced and successful (in competition) karate practitioner. One day whilst working on the ward a patient made a grab for this "karate nurse" unexpectedly. The Karate guy just dropped this patient instinctively with a backfist! Apparently the patient was knocked out cold and the Karate Nurse was so mortified by what he had done that he quit his job for fear of hurting anyone else. According to my colleague the incident happened very quickly and the Karate Guy just instinctively reacted without thought before anyone knew what had happened. This was obviously a reflex action on the part of the guy and he had no time to think about what was a proportianate reaction as he just did what he had drilled himself to do.

An experienced MA practitioners instincts will be so much sharper than the average person and a reflex action from an experienced martial artist could be deadly.

 

[Jai]

I don't generally think about the backlash of using force to stop someone. If I or someone I know is being threatened to the point where becoming physical is required then god have mercy on the poor bastard, because I know I won't. This doesn't mean I'm engaging a situation to kill someone or leave them crippled, but I will do what ever it takes to ensure my attacker is sorry for the fact they attempted and failed short of killing them.