How do you defend against this? (Knife Attack)

[Cyriacus]

None of those he could do in the first 10 seconds in that video.

Do it yourself, then get back to me. I can do it, i dont see why he cant. Hes older, and in better physical condition than i am. Also, im doing it in a study.
Now lets have some fun.

Take a look at the video again exactly as it is. That is quite a thick looking jacket and would throw quite well, he was obviously had just taken it off and was about to fold it up when he saw the guy with the knife.

This is exhibit A of the video giving the defender too much credit.
On topic, a thick jacket is a softer jacket. Throwing a jacket takes time you dont have, and has little to no effect, let alone any effect which would benefit you at all.

You would not have to throw it far as the attacker is moving into you, you could basically throw it straight up form its original position a few centimeters (~40cm in the video) and it would be at face height, it would not flutter very much.

You think i didnt know that? Noone has said the jacket wouldnt make contact. It just wouldnt do anything useful. Or anything else, for that matter.

, it was already in your hand ready to use. The guy took a step back and 2 steps forward before he got close with the knife, if you can't side step and kick before he can do that then you are very slow indeed (it was nearly 2 whole seconds). The knife was clearly visible in the guys hand well before the attack even began.

Exhibit B of the video giving the defender too much credit.
On track, lets analyse that. Ok - So, youre saying the guy two a step back, and two steps forward before he got close with the knife.
Before i reply to that, two steps is about as much as you need to make the third step cover a ton of distance.
So, lets look at the video. Before you even reach the one second mark, he does not take a step back. He pushes off his back foot and begins to step with his front foot. There are far more effective ways of running forward from a standing start, but thats the way he did it. Due to the ground not being terribly gripping, his foot slid back. Mash the pause/play button and rewatch it a few times.
He has his hand attached to the defender before you even reach the one second mark. Where are you getting your information about two whole seconds from?
Before the two second mark, the knife is in his torso, he is offbalanced and being driven back, and the attacker is in a pretty great position with his arm around the defenders back. I suggest you take a look at the video exactly as it is, and try again. The following stabs are mostly to his neck area.

With the way the attacker is traveling in the video the side step would put you at 90 degrees from his direction of travel (he would be next to you) and on the side furthest away from the knife.

You would not have time to sidestep. The thought probably wouldnt even cross your mind in time. Even if you did sidestep the adjustment the attacker would need to make is insignificant.

It would take a major adjustment for him to follow you with the knife, he would have to stop and turn and reach across himself with the knife to stab you with it and in a full sprint, like he was doing in the video, that's just not going to happen with a split seconds notice.

He would not have to stop and turn. Have you ever actually gone for a run? People arent uncoordinated idiots. Its one adjustment. Stand up, run in a straight line, then physically move your entire body one meter to the right. Behold how easy it is! Really, do it. Maybe youll believe seeing yourself do it more than youll believe everyone here telling you the same thing.

You would not even have to do a full turning kick, just leaving your leg out would be enough to trip him over. From that position it would be impossible for him to fall into you as you would be out of their way.

The trip would not work. In fact, if he were somehow offset from you, itd be a pathetic jab at his leg whilst he took the time to move sideways and rush you from even closer than before, this time with no conceivable hope of escape no matter how good you think you are. If youd like to prove this one to yourself, ask a pal to turning kick you in the shin. Its not that bad, really. I doubt youd even feel it if it werent a full kick.
While youre at it, run in a straight line then sidestep. Its really easy.

 

[Chris Parker]

Exactly how does one back away in the middle of a full sprint forward?

Simple hesitation, stopping the forward movement, or sidestepping as Cyriacus said. But more importantly, you may note I said that was your best possible result, as it might buy you a split second longer of not bleeding. More likely it would have little to no result, and you'd get run through as simply as the guy in the clip.

Sidestep. Push back off the grounded foot. Im sure there are more ways.

Yep.

None of those he could do in the first 10 seconds in that video.

"The first 10 seconds"? The whole clip was only 10 seconds! Oh, and I'm not quite sure what you're meaning.... the side-stepping that Cyriacus was talking about was how the knifeman would be able to react (back away) as a result of the deadly jacket throw you suggested, not the defender... so it's really not something that is shown in the clip (as there's no throwing of the jacket to illicit such a responce). But if you're trying to suggest that side-stepping isn't an option for the defender, well, it would be a trained responce (and take a lot of conditioning, as the initial action would instinctively be to move back along the primal line/straight back), but there certainly was time for it. And it might have been far more successful than his actual action of a hesitant retreat, which had him on the off-foot when the knifeman caught him...

Take a look at the video again exactly as it is.

Yeah... I have a few times.

That is quite a thick looking jacket and would throw quite well, he was obviously had just taken it off and was about to fold it up when he saw the guy with the knife.

Hmm. The only real throw that could have any effect would be to the face (to hide where you are). The catch is that, for that throw to be effective, you'd need to be so close you'd be in knife range anyway. Besides, the best thing you can do with a thick jacket is try to wrap it around your arm to try to fend off the thrusts, protecting your arm that way. Makes it hard to catch/control the knife arm, of course, and is a short-term answer at best, but if you're using it to buy time to escape, maybe.

You would not have to throw it far as the attacker is moving into you, you could basically throw it straight up form its original position a few centimeters (~40cm in the video) and it would be at face height, it would not flutter very much., it was already in your hand ready to use.

Yeah... the problems are detailed above. Suffice to say, this is a bad idea.

The guy took a step back and 2 steps forward before he got close with the knife, if you can't side step and kick before he can do that then you are very slow indeed (it was nearly 2 whole seconds).

Really? You think so? I'll say this bluntly. You'd be stabbed. Look at the video again... the actual time it took for the knifeman to step in, cover the distance, and stab, was less than half a second. He started his action halfway through the first second, and had landed his thrust just after the 1 second mark was hit. At the 2 second mark, he was delivering his second thrust (to the throat). The defender was trying to step away, and was caught on one foot. If you think you have enough time there to side-step and kick, you really are underestimating the timeline here, as well as vastly over-estimating the practicality of such an action (against the attack shown in the clip).

The knife was clearly visible in the guys hand well before the attack even began. With the way the attacker is traveling in the video the side step would put you at 90 degrees from his direction of travel (he would be next to you) and on the side furthest away from the knife. It would take a major adjustment for him to follow you with the knife, he would have to stop and turn and reach across himself with the knife to stab you with it and in a full sprint, like he was doing in the video, that's just not going to happen with a split seconds notice. You would not even have to do a full turning kick, just leaving your leg out would be enough to trip him over. From that position it would be impossible for him to fall into you as you would be out of their way.

Yeah.... you'd be stabbed. Repeatedly.

 

[MJS]

Take a look at the video again exactly as it is. That is quite a thick looking jacket and would throw quite well, he was obviously had just taken it off and was about to fold it up when he saw the guy with the knife. You would not have to throw it far as the attacker is moving into you, you could basically throw it straight up form its original position a few centimeters (~40cm in the video) and it would be at face height, it would not flutter very much., it was already in your hand ready to use. The guy took a step back and 2 steps forward before he got close with the knife, if you can't side step and kick before he can do that then you are very slow indeed (it was nearly 2 whole seconds). The knife was clearly visible in the guys hand well before the attack even began. With the way the attacker is traveling in the video the side step would put you at 90 degrees from his direction of travel (he would be next to you) and on the side furthest away from the knife. It would take a major adjustment for him to follow you with the knife, he would have to stop and turn and reach across himself with the knife to stab you with it and in a full sprint, like he was doing in the video, that's just not going to happen with a split seconds notice. You would not even have to do a full turning kick, just leaving your leg out would be enough to trip him over. From that position it would be impossible for him to fall into you as you would be out of their way.

IMO, if the defender was that concerned with throwing anything, then why didn't he? He was holding the jacket up as if he was in Spain in the middle of a bullfight...lol. I watched that clip a few times just now. The badguy closed the distance in 1sec. Frankly, in that situation, kicking would be the last thing on my mind. Instead, with that close distance, I'd have rather seen the guy do what he could to gain control of the guys arm. Sure, its a no brainer you're probably going to get cut, but as I said, with the close distance, there aren't a whole bunch of options.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tueller_Drill

In the clip we saw, there certainly wasn't 21ft.

 

[RTKDCMB]

One of the things I do too is to let my students grab the my knife hand, then simply drop the knife into my other hand and start slashing away. It really throws off their game.

That only works if your other hand is anywhere near you knife holding hand and if you can catch it then the other guy can too.

 

[Cyriacus]

That only works if your other hand is anywhere near you knife holding hand and if you can catch it then the other guy can too.

So, move your hand over to your other hand. Take a pen, or a spoon, and try it.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Do it yourself, then get back to me. I can do it, i dont see why he cant. Hes older, and in better physical condition than i am. Also, im doing it in a study.
Now lets have some fun.



This is exhibit A of the video giving the defender too much credit.
On topic, a thick jacket is a softer jacket. Throwing a jacket takes time you dont have, and has little to no effect, let alone any effect which would benefit you at all.



You think i didnt know that? Noone has said the jacket wouldnt make contact. It just wouldnt do anything useful. Or anything else, for that matter.



Exhibit B of the video giving the defender too much credit.
On track, lets analyse that. Ok - So, youre saying the guy two a step back, and two steps forward before he got close with the knife.
Before i reply to that, two steps is about as much as you need to make the third step cover a ton of distance.
So, lets look at the video. Before you even reach the one second mark, he does not take a step back. He pushes off his back foot and begins to step with his front foot. There are far more effective ways of running forward from a standing start, but thats the way he did it. Due to the ground not being terribly gripping, his foot slid back. Mash the pause/play button and rewatch it a few times.
He has his hand attached to the defender before you even reach the one second mark. Where are you getting your information about two whole seconds from?
Before the two second mark, the knife is in his torso, he is offbalanced and being driven back, and the attacker is in a pretty great position with his arm around the defenders back. I suggest you take a look at the video exactly as it is, and try again. The following stabs are mostly to his neck area.



You would not have time to sidestep. The thought probably wouldnt even cross your mind in time. Even if you did sidestep the adjustment the attacker would need to make is insignificant.



He would not have to stop and turn. Have you ever actually gone for a run? People arent uncoordinated idiots. Its one adjustment. Stand up, run in a straight line, then physically move your entire body one meter to the right. Behold how easy it is! Really, do it. Maybe youll believe seeing yourself do it more than youll believe everyone here telling you the same thing.



The trip would not work. In fact, if he were somehow offset from you, itd be a pathetic jab at his leg whilst he took the time to move sideways and rush you from even closer than before, this time with no conceivable hope of escape no matter how good you think you are. If youd like to prove this one to yourself, ask a pal to turning kick you in the shin. Its not that bad, really. I doubt youd even feel it if it werent a full kick.
While youre at it, run in a straight line then sidestep. Its really easy.

A couple of points - The video is not about showing how to defend against a knife only to show how the author of the video thinks a real knife attack occurs. The defender in the video shows nothing but how to get stabbed. Like a typical RBSD video they show how 'traditional martial arts do not work' but offer not suggestions whatsoever of how they think it should be done.

-Timing and decimal point errors aside it takes less time to take one step to the side than it took the guy to close that distance.

-This video does not give any credit to the defender at all.

-It takes a hell of a lot more time to wrap a jacket around your arm than it does to throw it away. The jacket is a distraction, nothing more, if it gets in his face and covers his eyes then it is all the distraction you need.

-Just because you can't side step quick enough doesn't mean no one else can.

- If he moves his foot backwards and plants it on the ground that qualifies as a step backwards.

- He can't grab your arm as he did in the video if your arm is not there.

- A thicker jacket is a softer jacket only if it is made of softer material (not leather for example) Not really relevant.

- As for the time it took to get within stabbing distance, my admittedly crude use of a stopwatch puts it at about 1.5 seconds, more than enough time to side step and kick/trip.

- The defense I suggested is simple and effective if timed correctly with even moderate reflexes. The side step to the non-knife wielding hand pouts you as far away from the knife as you can get in that small amount of time. The guy would be tripped over before he gets a chance to turn around or change position (even a 10 year old in a playground could trip someone over running at them) or stab/slash across himself, the stabber has too much forward momentum to do that.

-If you can't make a simple technique like that work then there is not much hope for you (not you specifically).

 

[Cyriacus]

A couple of points - The video is not about showing how to defend against a knife only to show how the author of the video thinks a real knife attack occurs. The defender in the video shows nothing but how to get stabbed. Like a typical RBSD video they show how 'traditional martial arts do not work' but offer not suggestions whatsoever of how they think it should be done.

They say nothing about traditional martial arts. Crappy knife defense is found in RBSD as well.
Also, that is pretty much how a knife attack happens. Rush forward > Stab repeatedly.

-Timing and decimal point errors aside it takes less time to take one step to the side than it took the guy to close that distance.

And even if you did, it wouldnt do you much good.

-This video does not give any credit to the defender at all.

It gives the defender too much hope of survival. Hes aware that the aggressor has a knife, hes aware that hes going to be assaulted, and theyre a fair distance away from each other. Among other things.

-It takes a hell of a lot more time to wrap a jacket around your arm than it does to throw it away. The jacket is a distraction, nothing more, if it gets in his face and covers his eyes then it is all the distraction you need.

You do not need to be able to see a person in order to stab them. Also, i refer back to my previous answer. Most of the time when weve tried similar things, the jacket gets caught on the shoulder. I dont doubt that wont always be the case, but even when it does get on the face it doesnt do any good.

-Just because you can't side step quick enough doesn't mean no one else can.

Of course. Now go try it yourself.
Please, make sure your attacker is running as fast as he can, and doesnt slow down when youre about to collide.

- If he moves his foot backwards and plants it on the ground that qualifies as a step backwards.

His foot pushes, and slides back. Call it whatever you want.

- He can't grab your arm as he did in the video if your arm is not there.

Nope - He can grab your shoulder, instead. Or anything else his hand attaches to. In fact, the arm serves as a pretty great obstacle even if it doesnt catch anything. You can also just wrap your arm around them a splitsecond later when your bodies collide.

- A thicker jacket is a softer jacket only if it is made of softer material (not leather for example) Not really relevant.

Leather isnt exactly a lethal weapon. Even if you whip the thing the damage will be superficial at best. I doubt youd even feel it in the heat of the moment.

- As for the time it took to get within stabbing distance, my admittedly crude use of a stopwatch puts it at about 1.5 seconds, more than enough time to side step and kick/trip.

All of which assumes that the trip stands a chance of doing anything at all, that you have the full 1.5 seconds to do the sidestep and kick, and of course that the other person doesnt make an insignificant adjustment towards you.

- The defense I suggested is simple and effective if timed correctly with even moderate reflexes. The side step to the non-knife wielding hand pouts you as far away from the knife as you can get in that small amount of time. The guy would be tripped over before he gets a chance to turn around or change position (even a 10 year old in a playground could trip someone over running at them) or stab/slash across himself, the stabber has too much forward momentum to do that.

Forward momentum is the reason why tripping isnt terribly fabulous. Really, try it with a partner. Let him turning kick your shin as hard as he wants. It might be bruised up after, but it wont drop you.
And again, he doesnt need to stab across himself. He isnt braindead.

-If you can't make a simple technique like that work then there is not much hope for you (not you specifically).

If you say so.

 

[MJS]

A couple of points - The video is not about showing how to defend against a knife only to show how the author of the video thinks a real knife attack occurs. The defender in the video shows nothing but how to get stabbed. Like a typical RBSD video they show how 'traditional martial arts do not work' but offer not suggestions whatsoever of how they think it should be done.

I'll agree that there's alot of crap out there, but IMO, I don't think it's limited to just TMAs. I'm a fan of RBSD methods, but no, I don't run around thinking they're the end all, be all of training. And if what you said is true, then for the RBSD clips to not show what they think should be done...well, that sounds like a flaw to me, as well. Furthermore, where in the clip does it say that its a TMA or RBSD comparison?

-Timing and decimal point errors aside it takes less time to take one step to the side than it took the guy to close that distance.

Yet down below, you said if its timed correctly. I think you're dismissing some important things, but thats just my opinion.

-This video does not give any credit to the defender at all.

Nope, just shows him getting stabbed, and standing there holding his coat.

-It takes a hell of a lot more time to wrap a jacket around your arm than it does to throw it away. The jacket is a distraction, nothing more, if it gets in his face and covers his eyes then it is all the distraction you need.

IMO, given the close distance, I doubt even if he did throw it, that it'd have much of an effect.

-Just because you can't side step quick enough doesn't mean no one else can.

Yes, as long as the timing is right, right?

- If he moves his foot backwards and plants it on the ground that qualifies as a step backwards.

Ok.

- He can't grab your arm as he did in the video if your arm is not there.

Thats true, however, nothing says that the attacker can't grab another body part.

- A thicker jacket is a softer jacket only if it is made of softer material (not leather for example) Not really relevant.

Ok.

- As for the time it took to get within stabbing distance, my admittedly crude use of a stopwatch puts it at about 1.5 seconds, more than enough time to side step and kick/trip.

So, if thats the case, then why does it seem in the Tueller Drill, that the guy with the gun, usually gets stabbed? I think you're making it sound easier than it is.

- The defense I suggested is simple and effective if timed correctly with even moderate reflexes. The side step to the non-knife wielding hand pouts you as far away from the knife as you can get in that small amount of time. The guy would be tripped over before he gets a chance to turn around or change position (even a 10 year old in a playground could trip someone over running at them) or stab/slash across himself, the stabber has too much forward momentum to do that.

Again, the key wording..if timed correctly.

-If you can't make a simple technique like that work then there is not much hope for you (not you specifically).

LOL....ok.

 

[Langenschwert]

Step one: Don't get stabbed. Do a low cover and intercept the attacker's forearm. As you do this, step back explosiovely and hollow out your abdomen away from the attack, kind of like a performing a sprawl, but maintain your balance. Don't think about blocking the knife, remember to concentrate on the forearm when training. If you focus on the knife, you'll put your hands right onto the point. Better than getting it in the gut, but still.

Step two: control the weapon arm. You have him by the forearm. Now, don't let go. Hang on for dear life, because it's on the line.

Step three: defang the snake. There are any number of credible ways to proceed such as twisting for an arm break over the shoulder or "simply" (nothing is ever simple against a knife) grab the blade and twist it against the thumb. You'll get cut but so what.. you're in a knife fight... suck it up and realize you'll likely end up in the hospital no matter what. But better than than the morgue.

The simple reality is there is no knife defence that will succeed against a canny, well-trained attacker. That is the way it is. Any knife defence will be messy, sloppy and bloody in reality.

Nobody "wins" a knife fight. You can only survive one if you haven't lost.

-Mark

 

[RTKDCMB]

I was referring to timing of the clock in the video not the timing of the defender.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Step one: Don't get stabbed. Do a low cover and intercept the attacker's forearm. As you do this, step back explosiovely and hollow out your abdomen away from the attack, kind of like a performing a sprawl, but maintain your balance. Don't think about blocking the knife, remember to concentrate on the forearm when training. If you focus on the knife, you'll put your hands right onto the point. Better than getting it in the gut, but still.

Step two: control the weapon arm. You have him by the forearm. Now, don't let go. Hang on for dear life, because it's on the line.

Step three: defang the snake. There are any number of credible ways to proceed such as twisting for an arm break over the shoulder or "simply" (nothing is ever simple against a knife) grab the blade and twist it against the thumb. You'll get cut but so what.. you're in a knife fight... suck it up and realize you'll likely end up in the hospital no matter what. But better than than the morgue.

The simple reality is there is no knife defence that will succeed against a canny, well-trained attacker. That is the way it is. Any knife defence will be messy, sloppy and bloody in reality.

Nobody "wins" a knife fight. You can only survive one if you haven't lost.

-Mark

This can work if you can stop his forward momentum and don't forget to move the knife to one side, I'd grab the wrist with both hands for maximum control and kick him before attempting to break his arm. I have seen students forget to move the knife to one side, perform the kick and actually pull the knife into themselves.

Defanging the snake refers to a strategy of cutting the attacking arm with a knife of your own by slashing or withdrawing the knife in a certain way when it is blocked (can be negated somewhat by proper blocking technique), if I remember correctly.

I always tell students that if you are to defend against a knife then expect to get cut so be absolutely sure it is necessary.

 

[Drasken]

Rather than continue to make points about knife defense I recommend trying this.
Take a marker, give a friend this marker. Tell your friend to attack you randomly and aggressively with said marker. Try different defenses out against said marker as though it were a knife.
Watch how quickly you are covered in lines and dots where you are "stabbed and cut"

I learned very quickly that knife defense is great to know, but taking out an aggressive attacker wielding a knife is not as easy as it looks. Even when well trained it doesn't mean you can do it easily because one mistake can mean serious injury or death.
Also the awesome flashy stuff seen in movies... Yeah I don't recommend it. And last time I saw a kick used against a n with a "knife" ( in this case a red sharpie ) the guy just quickly stabbed the leg. Which would have been a stab to the femoral artery.

I agree with Chris, the jacket would serve you better if wrapped around your arm to minimize damage from slashing or thrusts while you attempt to gain control of that weapon. Either way, train like stated above. Simple techniques and reactions, when trained, are usually the most effective. But by no means are they guaranteed.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Rather than continue to make points about knife defense I recommend trying this.
Take a marker, give a friend this marker. Tell your friend to attack you randomly and aggressively with said marker. Try different defenses out against said marker as though it were a knife.
Watch how quickly you are covered in lines and dots where you are "stabbed and cut"

That would be like getting attacked by Mr Squiggle.

 

[Chris Parker]

Oh dear. I'll try once more....

A couple of points - The video is not about showing how to defend against a knife only to show how the author of the video thinks a real knife attack occurs. The defender in the video shows nothing but how to get stabbed. Like a typical RBSD video they show how 'traditional martial arts do not work' but offer not suggestions whatsoever of how they think it should be done.

Well, you're right in what the video is claiming to show (for the record, it's not entirely correct.... most knife assaults are ambushes, rather than rushes, but the frenetic energy and speed is accurate). The real point of the clip, though (according to the uploader) is that, unless you're training to handle that type of sudden, explosive attack, there's a very good chance that your knife defence is deeply, some might say fatally, flawed. And, honestly, from reading through your take on such things, I'd suggest that that might be the case here...

-Timing and decimal point errors aside it takes less time to take one step to the side than it took the guy to close that distance.

I don't think you really get the effect that reaction timing has on things here.... are you familiar with the OODA loop? Oh, and no, by the way. Taking a step back, or even to the side, takes longer than a step forward. That's mainly due to the way we, as human beings, are designed. We're angled in one direction (forwards), and optimised for that direction when it comes to fast, explosive movement. Our hip flexors, our knees, our ankles, are all designed to support a sudden spring forward, not back, or sideways. So.... no. Wrong.

-This video does not give any credit to the defender at all.

The video isn't about the defender. It's about the attack.

-It takes a hell of a lot more time to wrap a jacket around your arm than it does to throw it away. The jacket is a distraction, nothing more, if it gets in his face and covers his eyes then it is all the distraction you need.

Uh, actually, no. Wrapping the jacket around your forearm/wrist is a gross motor, single action, basically done by holding in one hand, and rapidly rotating your wrist/hand once. Throwing (to get the result you're after) requires holding in two hands, opening the jacket (to get the proper "spread"), bringing it back towards your body, extending both arms towards the attacker, releasing the jacket, and hoping that the simple wind resistance (heightened by the opening of the jacket) doesn't slow the throw down too much once the jacket is released, ending in a low-impact (ineffective impact) contact. And, let's not forget, once you've thrown the jacket, you've just thrown away the only real asset you had for protection... for very little return, if anything. Oh, and no, that's really not all the distraction you need, as, in the heat of a real assault, it's really not enough of a distraction to be truly effective. Sorry.

-Just because you can't side step quick enough doesn't mean no one else can.

Here's the reality. We, as people, are hard-wired to move along what is referred to as the "Primal Line". That line is straight forward (to advance), and straight back (to retreat). A typical "fright" responce is to start to move back along this primal line.... which is exactly what is seen in the clip. It takes a hell of a lot of training to be able to move in any other direction as an initial action, as it is going directly against your hard-wired survival instincts, honed through thousands of generations. So while side-stepping is very useful, as an initial action, it's just not going to be there (in a real, sudden, violent, high-adrenaline assault). It would be a second, or third action, at best... which means you need to have survived long enough to be able to employ it in the first place. Oh, and I don't think you really get the reality of reactionary time, or human mechanics here, let alone the realities of such assaults.

- If he moves his foot backwards and plants it on the ground that qualifies as a step backwards.

Yeah... not really sure what this is in relation to... are you talking about the defender or the attacker here? Just not really seeing the relevance, other than trying a semantic argument to bolster your opinions...

- He can't grab your arm as he did in the video if your arm is not there.

You know, I just paused the clip with the time-code stating 0:01 (and the first stab had already landed, by the way...), and I gotta say, there is no grab to an arm.... the attacker has gotten hold of the defender (well, victim, really) by wrapping his right arm behind and around the neck (hmm, the knifeman is left handed... interesting... could just be a reversed video...). Besides, no-one mentioned anyone grabbing an arm....

- A thicker jacket is a softer jacket only if it is made of softer material (not leather for example) Not really relevant.

Hmm. I'm really not sure of the point being made here (on either side).

- As for the time it took to get within stabbing distance, my admittedly crude use of a stopwatch puts it at about 1.5 seconds, more than enough time to side step and kick/trip.

Yeah.... you'd be stabbed. Lots.

- The defense I suggested is simple and effective if timed correctly with even moderate reflexes. The side step to the non-knife wielding hand pouts you as far away from the knife as you can get in that small amount of time. The guy would be tripped over before he gets a chance to turn around or change position (even a 10 year old in a playground could trip someone over running at them) or stab/slash across himself, the stabber has too much forward momentum to do that.

Tell you what, let's ignore the lack of reality to this tactic, and look at the low possibility that you actually managed to "trip" the knifeman coming in towards you... what do you think their responce would be? I'll give you a clue... if someone's attacking with that amount of velocity (and aggression), they're not going to be stopped by being tripped... and they'll be fairly committed to injuring/killing you. That means you're dealing with someone acting with a survival mentality (unconsciously)... so an obstacle, causing them to start to fall, will have them immediately try to retain balance.... which will commonly be achieved by reaching out with the spare hand, and grabbing hold of something (in the situation you describe, most likely you) to steady themselves... which will have them quite simply falling, uncontrolled towards you with a knife. Bad, bad, bad plan. They will not fall on their own knife, they will not slash or stab themselves (more likely the knife hand will reach out [away from themselves] in an attempt to keep balance, for the record), so again, there is a large disconnect with reality in your plan.

-If you can't make a simple technique like that work then there is not much hope for you (not you specifically).

The deeply (fatally) flawed one you're suggesting? I'm thinking if you try it, there's not much hope for you (yeah, you specifically).

Step one: Don't get stabbed. Do a low cover and intercept the attacker's forearm. As you do this, step back explosiovely and hollow out your abdomen away from the attack, kind of like a performing a sprawl, but maintain your balance. Don't think about blocking the knife, remember to concentrate on the forearm when training. If you focus on the knife, you'll put your hands right onto the point. Better than getting it in the gut, but still.

Step two: control the weapon arm. You have him by the forearm. Now, don't let go. Hang on for dear life, because it's on the line.

Step three: defang the snake. There are any number of credible ways to proceed such as twisting for an arm break over the shoulder or "simply" (nothing is ever simple against a knife) grab the blade and twist it against the thumb. You'll get cut but so what.. you're in a knife fight... suck it up and realize you'll likely end up in the hospital no matter what. But better than than the morgue.

The simple reality is there is no knife defence that will succeed against a canny, well-trained attacker. That is the way it is. Any knife defence will be messy, sloppy and bloody in reality.

Nobody "wins" a knife fight. You can only survive one if you haven't lost.

-Mark

Ah, that's much better!

Some notes for RTKDCMB here... the first point Mark makes shows an understanding of the Primal Line, and gives a practical, and effective responce. The second is essential (if possible, I recommend two hands in a high/low grip (with one hand controlling the forearm, the other the upper arm, and marrying the arm to your body for the most control possible). The third is really the only one up for debate, and that might be primarily a matter of terminology. For instance, we don't focus on the idea of disarming (which is what "defang the snake" commonly refers to), but do focus on ending the encounter without giving the attacker the ability to use the weapon.

In essence, our defence is very much what Mark describes. The first step is to both avoid the knife, and to put a barrier inbetween the knife and your body, whether a forearm, their arm, an improvised item, a car, whatever. So long as there is something between your body and the knife, you aren't being stabbed (to the body). Next is control, which needs to be very tight and secure (we train against the knifeman trying to regain control of it constantly), and then we get to the "finishing" actions, which might be a barrage of strikes, a take-down (using the momentum of the attacker trying to regain their knifearm), or a couple of other method we have, ending commonly with a disarm once the attack has been stopped (so it can't be resumed).

Mark's last two sentences are absolutely true.

I was referring to timing of the clock in the video not the timing of the defender.

Huh?

This can work if you can stop his forward momentum and don't forget to move the knife to one side, I'd grab the wrist with both hands for maximum control and kick him before attempting to break his arm. I have seen students forget to move the knife to one side, perform the kick and actually pull the knife into themselves.

Right. Uh, no, really. Stopping the forward momentum isn't actually necessary... and grabbing the wrist with both arms is actually not getting a lot of control, as you're allowing free movement of the elbow and shoulder (no control). That can lead to the arm whipping around a fair bit, and you getting your arm cut up as the knife is retrieved pretty easily. As far as your students pulling the knife onto themselves, well, "forgetting to move the knife to one side" isn't the issue (as, again, that's really not a hugely realistic ideal). I'm not putting a lot of stock in your knife defence teaching, honestly, as most of it seems to be ignorant of the realities of such encounters.

Defanging the snake refers to a strategy of cutting the attacking arm with a knife of your own by slashing or withdrawing the knife in a certain way when it is blocked (can be negated somewhat by proper blocking technique), if I remember correctly.

No, that's one expression/application of the principle, if you have a blade yourself as well, it's not the definition of "defanging".

I always tell students that if you are to defend against a knife then expect to get cut so be absolutely sure it is necessary.

Especially if following the methods you're suggesting....

Rather than continue to make points about knife defense I recommend trying this.
Take a marker, give a friend this marker. Tell your friend to attack you randomly and aggressively with said marker. Try different defenses out against said marker as though it were a knife.
Watch how quickly you are covered in lines and dots where you are "stabbed and cut"

I learned very quickly that knife defense is great to know, but taking out an aggressive attacker wielding a knife is not as easy as it looks. Even when well trained it doesn't mean you can do it easily because one mistake can mean serious injury or death.
Also the awesome flashy stuff seen in movies... Yeah I don't recommend it. And last time I saw a kick used against a n with a "knife" ( in this case a red sharpie ) the guy just quickly stabbed the leg. Which would have been a stab to the femoral artery.

I agree with Chris, the jacket would serve you better if wrapped around your arm to minimize damage from slashing or thrusts while you attempt to gain control of that weapon. Either way, train like stated above. Simple techniques and reactions, when trained, are usually the most effective. But by no means are they guaranteed.

That would be like getting attacked by Mr Squiggle.

I think you have completely missed the point that Drasken was making... as well as showing (again) that you don't have much of a realistic idea of what knife defence is all about.

 

[Cyriacus]

Hmm. I'm really not sure of the point being made here (on either side).

I commented that jackets are soft things. Which they are. Leather jackets are also soft. Soft, non-solid things arent usually capable of any sort of blunt impact.

 

[Chris Parker]

Yep, I got that.... but I'm not sure that RTKDCMB was saying that the jacket would be used as a real impact weapon... of course, that does limit it's usage to pure distraction (which it is rather ineffective at in this context), but I don't think that impact was part of the argument.

 

[Cyriacus]

Yep, I got that.... but I'm not sure that RTKDCMB was saying that the jacket would be used as a real impact weapon... of course, that does limit it's usage to pure distraction (which it is rather ineffective at in this context), but I don't think that impact was part of the argument.

That was the point - It wasnt exactly intended to be a point of discussion. Just a comment. It came shortly after stating that it wasnt a good distraction for various reasons, including but not limited to that you dont need to see someone to be able to stab them. So, if it isnt a worthwhile distraction and its too soft to do any kind of damage, youre left with very few uses for it. One of which is using it as a layer between your skin and a pointy thing, as youve been saying.

 

[Drasken]

It's kind of interesting that so many people think a thrown jacket is so useful in self defense. Against a punch or kick is one thing, but priorities change drastically when a weapon is in the equation.
Now if we were talking about a jacket like the one my friend wears that would be a different story. But he rides a motorcycle so his jacket has steel and carbon fiber plates inside it. Makes decent armor and is heavy and hard enough to knock someone silly or used to hit the weapon hand. Soft jackets just really aren't that useful.

That being said, I believe my part in this debate is pretty well over. My point stands that experiencing attacks firsthand is much better than all the advice in the world. And I don't expect anyone in the world to take my advice, or anyone else's at face value for that matter.

The point of training with a marker in place of a knife ( which I agree with Chris, I think the point was missed ) is that, unlike the training knives, it leaves a mark without damage. After a defense is executed you can look to see any contact with the "blade" and gauge the injuries you would have incured. The results will likely surprise you, I know it did me.
It was good advice to do this though, because it was a wake up call without actual damage. I was glad I trained in this manner because it allowed me to figure out good defenses and also to not get overconfident in my ability. And before doing this exercise I admit that I was WAY too sure in my abilities. The first time I tried this training exercise with a marker, I was covered in graffiti.
I could only imagine what might have happened if I had encountered an actual blade back then. And in all honesty, it probably would have been very bad for me.

 

[MJS]

I was referring to timing of the clock in the video not the timing of the defender.

Ah, ok. I did see mention of the stopwatch and video time. I guess when I read this:

"The defense I suggested is simple and effective if timed correctly with even moderate reflexes."

I took that as you talking about body movement timing, not the clock on the clip.

 

[MJS]

This can work if you can stop his forward momentum and don't forget to move the knife to one side, I'd grab the wrist with both hands for maximum control and kick him before attempting to break his arm. I have seen students forget to move the knife to one side, perform the kick and actually pull the knife into themselves.

That's pretty much the method that I prefer to use...gain control, work in counter strikes, and then if possible, go for the disarm.

Defanging the snake refers to a strategy of cutting the attacking arm with a knife of your own by slashing or withdrawing the knife in a certain way when it is blocked (can be negated somewhat by proper blocking technique), if I remember correctly.

Yes, one method is with the blade, however, using a blunt object, ie: a stick, works just as well.

I always tell students that if you are to defend against a knife then expect to get cut so be absolutely sure it is necessary.

Agreed.