How did Taekwon-Do (1955) predating 1966 look like?

Discussion in 'Tae-Kwon-Do' started by Laplace_demon, Nov 29, 2014.

  1. reeskm

    reeskm Green Belt

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    I stress that not all MT kicks are like that. Like the post on Sherdog mentioned, any MT instructor worth his salt will tell you to turn your hips over for more power. Also, any good instructor will explain that a ball of the foot round is different and is used differently depending on the effect you want to create.

    You will find that martial arts styles draw on a very long and similar heritage. The more you look into it, the more similarities you will see.
     
  2. Tony Dismukes

    Tony Dismukes MT Moderator Staff Member

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    In Muay Thai the round kick can be thrown either with or without the full hip turnover. I personally consider the full turnover version to be more fundamental, but that may just be the way I was taught. As noted, there is a trade-off between speed and power. Sometimes you want the extra power from getting the full turnover, sometimes you want the extra speed from just swinging the leg straight up. Even the diagonal version without the full rotation can have knockout power if it lands just right.

    I've noted that the diagonal kick without full hip rotation is more common for kicks to the body. Leg kicks are more likely to use the full turnover. (This is partially to align the shin bones so they don't get broken if the opponent checks your kick.) Head kicks can go either way.

    I have also noticed some similarities in the Olympic style TKD round kicks and the Muay Thai round kick - particularly the lack of chambering. The flavor of the kicks does seem a little different to me. I'm not sure if that's entirely due to the difference in the stances and the range (since Muay Thai hits with the shin, the kicks are thrown from closer in) or if there's more to it.
     
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  3. Dirty Dog

    Dirty Dog MT Senior Moderator Staff Member

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    They were never "introduced". They evolved. People involved with competitive sparring, where speed to target often outweighs power production, learned that this modification of the round kick was faster. The tradeoff is that they limit the target area somewhat, as well as being less powerful. The angle at which the kick travels makes it much harder to strike the head.

    And General Choi was never "thrown out" of the KTA. He chose to leave to pursue his own vision of TKD, long before the WTF was founded.
     
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  4. Dirty Dog

    Dirty Dog MT Senior Moderator Staff Member

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    Once again, there is no such thing as WTF-TKD, nor a WTF roundhouse. Similarly, you've been told repeatedly that the Kukki-TKD roundhouse is thrown with either the top of the foot or the ball, with the hip turned over or without. Just like the ITF round kick.

    You really need to work on being able to adjust your preconceived assumptions when they turn out to be incorrect.
     
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  5. Laplace_demon

    Laplace_demon Black Belt

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    Oh really? This instructor, with a background in both organisations disagree:

    "The WTF roundhouse end has several variations to remain more effective. Why raise your knee directly and turn completely over when you can actually cut your distance and time as a result of going diagonal. The kick has less power like this, but it bites your opponent much faster. The other plus is that this sets your adversary up for another activate which you may possibly turn your roundhouse kick entirely over. Other stylists perspective this practice to be sloppy. WTF practitioners deem it as being effective"

    World Taekwondo Federation WTF Compared to International Taekwondo Federation ITF World Taekwondo Federation WTF Compared to Inter

    You were saying?
     
  6. Dirty Dog

    Dirty Dog MT Senior Moderator Staff Member

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    The WTF themselves disagree...
    and on the subject of rank:
    You can roam the WTF site as much as you like. You will never find anything to support your ridiculous claim that the WTF is a style of TKD. It is not. It never has been. It is exactly what is said above; a governing body to promote a sport.

    You're wrong. Get over it.

    Or are you seriously going to sit there and claim that you are better equipped to define what the WTF is than the WTF themselves?

    You were saying?
     
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  7. Laplace_demon

    Laplace_demon Black Belt

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    Why attack me? The instructor made the claim there was such a thing as a WTF roundhouse. My opinion is not relevant. None of the information provided from the WTF website, exclude the possibility of those schools connected to WTF events, develop seperate techniques from schools having ITF-Taekwon-DO written labels on their dobok, and using General Chois patterns.

    "One does not exclude the other"
     
  8. Laplace_demon

    Laplace_demon Black Belt

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    One more :

    Rayners Lane Taekwon-do Academy

    "WTF assessment of ITF stylists:Outdated and limited kicking techniques taught by old masters that have no practical application & imagination for WTF sparring. Non contact or light contact pussy footers -because one is conditioned to fight non-contact or light contact, they get blown away in real hard full contact sparring situations. Impractical sparring moves-eg. blocking instead of dodging. Moves are too slow for practicality and vulnerable"
     
  9. Dirty Dog

    Dirty Dog MT Senior Moderator Staff Member

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    Well, no, you have made the claim repeatedly that WTF-TKD exists, and tried to use this other persons (equally erroneous) statements to support your claim. Despite the fact that the WTF themselves disagree with you.

    That is correct, because this isn't a matter of opinion. It is a matter of fact. And the facts, despite your refusal to accept them, prove you wrong.

    So, clearly, you didn't bother to educate yourself despite the resources provided. There are no WTF schools. The WTF is not a style. The only members of the WTF are national governing bodies whose job is... wait for it... to govern and promote a sport.

    Feel free to stuff your head further under the sand. That doesn't change the facts.

    You can't educate those who refuse to learn...
     
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  10. Laplace_demon

    Laplace_demon Black Belt

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    I did educate myself. My 8th Dan instructor in Taekwon-Do, informed me in our first encounter that my previous school was "WTF"", explaining ITF and WTF are different organisations, styles, he added. Are you by any chance an 8th degree in TKD?
     
  11. Dirty Dog

    Dirty Dog MT Senior Moderator Staff Member

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    So you're actually going to sit there and insist that you know more about what the WTF is than the WTF itself.

    Have a nice life. There's no fix for willful ignorance.
     
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  12. Laplace_demon

    Laplace_demon Black Belt

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    Why are there no prominent south korean schools employing General Chois patterns and wearing ITF-doboks? Is it a coincidence?
     
  13. Laplace_demon

    Laplace_demon Black Belt

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    Also, WTF organises Pomsae patterns competitions, which are kukkiwons, NOT Chang Hon forms.

    = Style.

    There I solved it for you
     
  14. Archtkd

    Archtkd 3rd Black Belt

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    Your teacher may have been speaking in generalities, particulalry because you were a new student who might have been too green to understand specifics. You are in the big city now: learn something new.
     
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  15. RTKDCMB

    RTKDCMB Senior Master

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    Did you at all consider that the instructor might me, I don't know, Wrong?
     
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  16. RTKDCMB

    RTKDCMB Senior Master

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    And here is the entire quote in it's original context, the bolded section represents their actual viewpoint:

    "(what is commonly said about each other & the real difference).

    ITF assessment of WTF stylists:
    All they do is fancy foot and legwork with a lot of sound. No real power. Everything is geared to competition and tournaments. No spiritual arts, and a lot of good foot techniques such as twisting front kick(a kick that springs up from a standing position both feet facing forward, foot is twisted inwards and kicked up towards the opponents nosebridge at an angle)are lost, and everything is competition oriented. The practicality of the martial arts is lost for speed and points in tournaments. Upper body and hand movements are not emphasized nor does it call for hitting/striking the face/head as in real fighting, or close range when someone is tackled. Thus the students are only skilled in playing tag points . No real practical value in actual fighting. The head of WTF is not a TKD practitioner but a bureaucratic figurehead which is why WTF certificates are signed Dr. Un Young Kim. He has neither demonstrated nor taught TKD. The WTF patterns are of no aesthetic value, it is just a breakdown mix and match of ITF forms. No beauty in forms. Taekwondo? Gaekwondo is more like it.(Note: Gae is dog in Korean, loosely translated, it means dog pawing ).

    WTF assessment of ITF stylists:Outdated and limited kicking techniques taught by old masters that have no practical application & imagination for WTF sparring. Non contact or light contact pussy footers -because one is conditioned to fight non-contact or light contact, they get blown away in real hard full contact sparring situations. Impractical sparring moves-eg. blocking instead of dodging. Moves are too slow for practicality and vulnerable. (e.g. plain wheel kick, where the heel is turned in an arc towards the opponent s head by turning back without hooking at the knee ). Too low and wide stances that slows down each movement and telegraphs your move. No power nor speed in moves. No efficient aerial kick techniques that require high skill which can be devastating,. No innovations or development in their moves. Thus the students have limited skills. ITF TKD? Gimme a break.

    Rules of WTF(simplified terms).
    WTF sparring is tournament oriented.

    1. Hits must be on the certain target areas above the waist line for points.
    2. No punches allowed to the face. If punch is done to the body, one must hit to the body with a forcible impact to the opponent.
    3. Kicks to the head allowed.
    4. No grabbing or holding the opponent.
    5. No points for hitting in the back.
    6. No sweeps or take downs.
    7. Protective gear (including forearm, shin, head, chest, and groin protection )and now doboks must be sanctioned by WTF

    Rules of ITF(simple terms).

    ITF is traditional training oriented. Tournament Rules
    (Again, this is general and varies in each splintered ITF-style group).

    1. Protective gear required(the level of protection depends on the instructor).
    2. Light padding on shins, knees, foot, and arms.
    3. Light head gear.
    4. Timed sparring.
    5. Points for certain targets including hand techniques. Stopped for points(in some).
    6. Non, light, or medium contact. (Full contact is rare, but is allowed in some tournaments).
    7. Chest protector(depends on instructor).

    The real difference between ITF and WTFITF being traditional adheres to an equal emphasis on patterns, breaking, sparring, & self-defense techniques. WTF has more emphasis on sparring aspect than patterns and self-defense. That is not to say WTF does not have patterns or self-defense. Breaking in WTF however, is not much emphasized as breaking in ITF.

    Which is better? In my opinion, the objectives of ITF and WTF are different. ITF(traditional martial art TKD) and WTF(tournament geared TKD) are two different systems that has diverged from the same origin. The best answer would be the better TKD stylist. The question is more like who is the better player? Comparing the better squash player vs. the better racquet ball player IMHO does not do justify who is better, even though the game may be similar.
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2014
  17. RTKDCMB

    RTKDCMB Senior Master

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    As someone who is a scientist I would like to point out the limitations of this scientific research.

    • There is only a very small sample size considering the complexity and variety of martial arts and and it's practitioners.
    • There was only a limited number of arts represented.
    • They do not take into account the size (although they were all similar in size) and strength and relative experience of the individual subjects..
    • There are only a very limited number of trials.
    The only thing that that experiment determined was that Bren Foster kicked harder than the other subjects at that particular time under those particular conditions.


    How hard a person can kick is dependent on a lot more factors than just speed. Also speed and velocity are different things. You can increase the speed of the kick simply by reducing the distance traveled without necessarily increasing the amount of force you kick with.
     
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  18. Laplace_demon

    Laplace_demon Black Belt

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    Foster generated a ton of force. This is a fact, regardless if he had faced 30000 different styles or not. The claim that these types of roundhouse kicks are fundamentally "weak" is disproven. I am not advocating he kicks the hardest, only that they are indeed just as potentially powerful, and not the way old school advocates likes to portray them.
     
  19. Laplace_demon

    Laplace_demon Black Belt

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    He is simplifying the matter. The WTF set up sparring rules, which schools adapted to in their techniques taught, as well as the WTF openly promoting pomsae/KK-TKD compeititon, completely neglecting the rest.
     
  20. RTKDCMB

    RTKDCMB Senior Master

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    A couple of points.

    No one is claiming they are fundamentally weak, only that they are less powerful. Bren Foster also has black belts in Hapkido and Hwarangdo, those two arts are also a factor in how much power he produced.

    Here is the roundhouse kick that is usually seen in such places as the Olympics, these are the ones that are less powerful :



    The one Bren Foster did in the Fight Science video is not the same kick, it was about the same technique as the Muay Thai fighter's kick so it does not actually prove anything.123
     

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