How did Taekwon-Do (1955) predating 1966 look like?

[Buka]

Then why comment?

Several reasons.
Spent some hard time in the Art being discussed and really enjoyed it.
It's a discussion.
And I have a really big mouth.

 

[Tez3]

Several reasons.
Spent some hard time in the Art being discussed and really enjoyed it.
It's a discussion.
And I have a really big mouth.

That's two of us then

 

[Laplace_demon]

First he references "any patterns", then he references all 24. He also cannot seem to diferentiate when a pattern is created and a time lag from creation to the first english publication date. However, in todays world of immediacy it can be understood how a younger person could not grasp the time involved to type something on a manual typewriter assemble photos, submit for publication and then get it published over 50 years ago.
.

In 1955 one pattern was created. Are you saying 23 other ones were already in existence, but not yet published?

In 1965, there were still missing 4 forms. Are you saying they existed, yet lacked publication?


To another point in the ITF vs WTF "philosophy". I was told ITF schools are "real taekwondo" not just sport driven, as the majority of the Kukkikwon schools geared towards sparring competition for WTF tournaments are.


Bare in mind, everything I do technique wise is within the premisse that I and other students will compete in ITF. It's as we wouldn't be there, if the objectives weren't entering ITF tournaments. "You need to learn this for competition"", this is good for competition", etc. etc."

Never once did it occur to them that I only wish to learn the martial art, and don't care what's so ever about the sport aspect.

A bit contradictory.....

 

[Tez3]

In 1955 one pattern was created. Are you saying 23 other ones were already in existence, but not yet published?

In 1965, there were still missing 4 forms. Are you saying they existed, yet lacked publication?


To another point in the ITF vs WTF "philosophy". I was told ITF schools are "real taekwondo" not just sport driven, as the majority of the Kukkikwon schools geared towards sparring competition for WTF tournaments are.


Bare in mind, everything I do technique wise is within the premisse that I and other students will compete in ITF. It's as we wouldn't be there, if the objectives weren't entering ITF tournaments. "You need to learn this for competition"", this is good for competition", etc. etc."

Never once did it occur to them that I only wish to learn the martial art, and don't care what's so ever about the sport aspect.

A bit contradictory.....

To be honest that is easy enough to sort, any martial artist from any style can tell you the answer to that one which is if you don't like or aren't happy in what you are training in, stop and go find something that suits what you want.

 

[Laplace_demon]

To be honest that is easy enough to sort, any martial artist from any style can tell you the answer to that one which is if you don't like or aren't happy in what you are training in, stop and go find something that suits what you want.

I never said I was unhappy with this, just that I have not been to or read of many ITF schools not being geared toward sport. Doesn't matter if it's WTF competitors or ITF. That's a myth.

There are Tang Soo Do and Karate organisations without competition - these can legitimately claim to be "art first". WTF or ITF - for the majority of cases are not.

 

[Laplace_demon]

A valid question.

Look whos talking. Mr "ITF style"

 

[Laplace_demon]

Several reasons.
Spent some hard time in the Art being discussed and really enjoyed it.
It's a discussion.
And I have a really big mouth.

I must admit your: "let's all get along and be united" philosophy does not appeal to me. I don't want' to end up with a helmet and protective body gear like WTF rules are now. Their sparring is unwatchable. Not saying anything about the performers, who are quite good.

 

[Tez3]

I spent a while with a TKD club, I went because a colleague of mine was the instructor and he needed to motivate the females in the class so I agreed to go along as I was a black belt in karate ( before you jump on that we are in a rural area and so limited as to what instructors there are). I trained with the adults which was fun and none of their training was for Olympic style competition, they did have a bigger emphasis on kicks than I did but they sparred much the same way I did. I even did a couple of gradings with them.
In many styles head guards and protective body gear are worn, they don't necessarily compete but most people want to go as full on as they can when sparring but we have to remember they aren't full time athletes, they need to be able to go to work the next morning! Disparaging anyone because they wear protective gear is a bit silly.
Olympic sparring isn't my thing but a good many people enjoy doing it and watching it, that doesn't make it 'unwatchable' ... it makes it 'not my thing'.
What I don't see is where you are coming from about the history of TKD when your main beef appears to be that you are training in a way you aren't happy with, and yes you've intimated that a few times now.

 

[Laplace_demon]

I spent a while with a TKD club, I went because a colleague of mine was the instructor and he needed to motivate the females in the class so I agreed to go along as I was a black belt in karate ( before you jump on that we are in a rural area and so limited as to what instructors there are). I trained with the adults which was fun and none of their training was for Olympic style competition, they did have a bigger emphasis on kicks than I did but they sparred much the same way I did. I even did a couple of gradings with them.
In many styles head guards and protective body gear are worn, they don't necessarily compete but most people want to go as full on as they can when sparring but we have to remember they aren't full time athletes, they need to be able to go to work the next morning! Disparaging anyone because they wear protective gear is a bit silly.
Olympic sparring isn't my thing but a good many people enjoy doing it and watching it, that doesn't make it 'unwatchable' ... it makes it 'not my thing'.
What I don't see is where you are coming from about the history of TKD when your main beef appears to be that you are training in a way you aren't happy with, and yes you've intimated that a few times now.

I am curious as to the historical background of this art to give me a greater understanding of what's happening today.

Now, there are two main objections against the WTF:

1. Turning a martial art into a sport, with their globalization. ITF is also "sporty" but not to the same extent.

2. Adopting a sparring format which most pundits outside of the "WTF world" agree is unwatchable.

I challenge you to conduct any polling on this. WTF TKD is the most hated martial art (or as they would call it: "Sport") in the entire world.

 

[Tez3]

I am curious as to the historical background of this art to give me a greater understanding of what's happening today.

Now, there are two main objections against the WTF:

1. Turning a martial art into a sport, with their globalization. ITF is also "sporty" but not to the same extent.

2. Adopting a sparring format which most pundits outside of the "WTF world" agree is unwatchable.

I challenge you to conduct any polling on this. WTF TKD is the most hated martial art (or as they would call it: "Sport") in the entire world.

The first sentence, yes I can accept that as I'm sure most people will, even though while be curious you still manage to argue with people about what id, didn't happen and who did or didn't do what. However the second paragraph is frankly style bashing. I don't have a dog in this fight, it's all just TKD to me but if I wrote what you just did about a style I would be rightly shouted down. As for doing a poll...really?
I don't actually think there is any martial art that is hated in the entire world, let alone most hated that just sounds like silliness.

 

[RTKDCMB]

I challenge you to conduct any polling on this. WTF TKD is the most hated martial art (or as they would call it: "Sport") in the entire world.

Maybe you should ask this question on Bulshido? They like that kind of thing.

 

[Transk53]

Actually, I would say as an outsider, TKD is quite attractive. I have personally seen some of those magical kicks (in a way) and I think you are being very harsh. Just one outsiders view.

 

[Laplace_demon]

Here's World Taekwondo Federation competition of the 80s:

It looks worlds apart from today..

 

[Tez3]

You don't honestly expect us to sit through nearly an hour of video do you? To what purpose? A lot of things change over time, sometimes for the better, sometimes for the worse but the bottom line is if you don't like it, do something about it. Join them and work for change, leave them and look for something else, anything to be honest, rather than whinge and complain.

 

[Laplace_demon]

1. You don't honestly expect us to sit through nearly an hour of video do you? To what purpose? A lot of things change over time, sometimes for the better, sometimes for the worse but the bottom line is if you don't like it, do something about it. Join them and work for change, leave them and look for something else, anything to be honest, rather than whinge and complain.

   
   You can always fast foward.
   For those asserting I bash styles, I tried to be a little bit constructive and replied to a unification appeal, which I strongly object to at this present moment. I wouldn't say the same if it looked like the 80s.
   

 

[Buka]

I must admit your: "let's all get along and be united" philosophy does not appeal to me. I don't want' to end up with a helmet and protective body gear like WTF rules are now. Their sparring is unwatchable. Not saying anything about the performers, who are quite good.

I don't want to wear a helmet and protective gear, either. Their particular type of sparring doesn't appeal to me. But I'll train with any of them if invited, or watch, or gladly discuss any and all things that have to do with it.

What doesn't appeal to you about all getting along? (just curious)

 

[Earl Weiss]

In 1955 one pattern was created. Are you saying 23 other ones were already in existence, but not yet published?

In 1965, there were still missing 4 forms. Are you saying they existed, yet lacked publication?

What I am saying wa your comment....

>>I am curious why it took General Choi ten years to establish ITF, and their own patterns? , <<
Was factually incorrect.

It is still incorrect.

Your current comments are so inaccurate it's hard to responf but I will try.

>>In 1955 one pattern was created. Are you saying 23 other ones were already in existence, but not yet published?<<

No, they were being formulated and codified as the first 20 ultimately appeared in the 1965 English text. I believe that may have been pre dated by a Korean text but I am not sure. Perjhaps someone has the timeline and creation handy I do not.

>>In 1965, there were still missing 4 forms. Are you saying they existed, yet lacked publication?<<

Agaim, I do not have the timeline as to when they were formulated but since they were codified and published in 1972, they must have existed beofre that date.

 

[Earl Weiss]

Mr. La Place Demon. Still curious if you used the screen name ITF-Taekwondo on a forum?

Please answer.

 

[Transk53]

1. 
   
   You can always fast foward.
   For those asserting I bash styles, I tried to be a little bit constructive and replied to a unification appeal, which I strongly object to at this present moment. I wouldn't say the same if it looked like the 80s.

Look I somewhat perplexed here. Why do you have a beef against the current day curriculum? Why does it matter, just close yourself off from it. I may be way off here in how I am reading this thread, I just don't see the point in being argumentative. I think you are trying to prove a point that cannot be substantiated how you yourself see it. As I said, no personal beef against you,this just how I am perceiving it.

 

[Archtkd]

Here's World Taekwondo Federation competition of the 80s:

It looks worlds apart from today..

You know very very little about WTF taekwondo competition, Kukkiwon taekwondo and possibly even ITF taekwondo, but you keep making hyperbolic statements about those systems with hardly any basis of fact. What looks "world's apart," in that video? Gear? The fact that it's a promotional demo video?

What are you going to show us next? John L. Sullivan's last bare knuckle fight -- the 72 rounds monster bout with Jake Kilrain on July 8, 1889? You will then probably tell us how wonderful those bare knuckle fights were, especially when fought under the London Prize Ring Rules, which combined boxing and wrestling. Under those rules, which Sullivan and Kilrain observed, a round did not have a time limit, but instead ended when a fighter was thrown to the ground or knocked down with a punch. Also there was no specific number of rounds. The Sullivan - Kilrain rumble lasted two hours, 16 minutes and 25 seconds.

To come back to topic, there are some commenting on this board who were practicing and competing in taekwondo in what you think are the distant 1980s. Other here have been teaching and going to local and international tournament for years. Not much has changed from what you see in that video save for that taekwondoin have become faster, stronger, more athletic and better in all ways, because they use better training methods.

I'd really encourage you to spend a lot of time studying and doing real basic research before posting on the MT boards. Bettter yet, get your passport and buy youself a plane tickeet to attend a conference like this one coming up in January: International Academic Conference for Taekwondo martial art martial sport