Hmmm............

[Hand Sword]

Just wondering a bit and figured I'd throw it out there for thought. Has anyone heard anything along the lines that "That Karate stuff doesn't work" for real? Or looked at the debates about MMA v. TMA? How about conditioning of the body debates? Well, taking it all together, along the lines of the conditioning bit, is "Karate" lacking since that has mostly disappeared from dojo training? Is it still "Karate" without it? I'm thinking about all of the debates mentioned (and the many more not mentioned) above and figured maybe it's true. When I came up we conditioned the body regularly- toughening hands, feet, and body. Some still do this now, and in the past, that's how the "old schoolers" trained. Accomplishment in this area lead to some serious destruction of an opponent, maybe after 1 strike, or possibly just a few. You could imagine what that hand, conditioned like steel would do to a rib cage, wrist, etc.. more effectively than w/o the training. I know debates rage now about physical issues and the whole idea of it being whacky. But.... is it needed to make "Karate" what it was or the best it could be? Is "Karate" lacking without that practice assuming self defense is the goal? Thoughts?

 

[Akira]

What?

 

[Andy Moynihan]

Just wondering a bit and figured I'd throw it out there for thought. Has anyone heard anything along the lines that "That Karate stuff doesn't work" for real? Or looked at the debates about MMA v. TMA? How about conditioning of the body debates? Well, taking it all together, along the lines of the conditioning bit, is "Karate" lacking since that has mostly disappeared from dojo training? Is it still "Karate" without it? I'm thinking about all of the debates mentioned (and the many more not mentioned) above and figured maybe it's true. When I came up we conditioned the body regularly- toughening hands, feet, and body. Some still do this now, and in the past, that's how the "old schoolers" trained. Accomplishment in this area lead to some serious destruction of an opponent, maybe after 1 strike, or possibly just a few. You could imagine what that hand, conditioned like steel would do to a rib cage, wrist, etc.. more effectively than w/o the training. I know debates rage now about physical issues and the whole idea of it being whacky. But.... is it needed to make "Karate" what it was or the best it could be? Is "Karate" lacking without that practice assuming self defense is the goal? Thoughts?

Short answer--Yes.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I think that it is fair to say that the average dojo in the modern age, particularly in the states, does not do anything resembling the body toughening and conditioning that was done in years past.

Doesn't mean that it can't be done, but the dojo is no longer the primary place of doing so unless you find a hardcore school.

The modern dojo is more fitness/hobbyist oriented. Hobbyists generally don't strive for ribs of steel, karate knuckles, or iron shins. Point of fact, a lot of people just want to do something physical around healthy people and not have to go the gym and wear gym attire to do so.

Daniel

 

[Drac]

I must disagree....I have seen plenty of evidence of the Kar-otty stuff working without the benefits of hand, foot toughening...

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Just to qualify my own comments, yes, karate still works without hard core toughening. Body mechanics are still the same. Hard core toughening is a nice plus, but the guy on the street that you have to defend against is unlikely to be any better conditioned than the average karateka, probably less so.

And certainly, the average point fighter isn't in need of hard core toughening.

Lets not forget that if that stuff is taken too far, it can cause problems for you later in life when wolverine knuckles and ribs like a roll cage are no longer your primary concern. Nobody want arthritis in their hands. Not to mention that karate knuckles may not be aesthetically desireable to people in certain work environs.

Daniel

 

[just2kicku]

Just wondering a bit and figured I'd throw it out there for thought. Has anyone heard anything along the lines that "That Karate stuff doesn't work" for real? Or looked at the debates about MMA v. TMA? How about conditioning of the body debates? Well, taking it all together, along the lines of the conditioning bit, is "Karate" lacking since that has mostly disappeared from dojo training? Is it still "Karate" without it? I'm thinking about all of the debates mentioned (and the many more not mentioned) above and figured maybe it's true. When I came up we conditioned the body regularly- toughening hands, feet, and body. Some still do this now, and in the past, that's how the "old schoolers" trained. Accomplishment in this area lead to some serious destruction of an opponent, maybe after 1 strike, or possibly just a few. You could imagine what that hand, conditioned like steel would do to a rib cage, wrist, etc.. more effectively than w/o the training. I know debates rage now about physical issues and the whole idea of it being whacky. But.... is it needed to make "Karate" what it was or the best it could be? Is "Karate" lacking without that practice assuming self defense is the goal? Thoughts?

I think it has to some extent. My dad and uncle used to punch the sidewalk to toughen up their hands. Training back then was tough. My dad said he was knocked out a couple times from getting kicked in the groin w/out a cup on. MA used to be to fight. The training was as real as it could possibly be to prepare you for the streets.

The problem with today is that life has taken over. People don't commit themselves the way they used to. Like Daniel said there's a lot of MA hobbyist out there who just want to workout.

I've sated in another thread that people these days are too soft. The old way of training is almost gone except for a few backyard dojos.

 

[Omar B]

TMA still works. It's not like people developed a new arm or anything over the past few years that nullified everything that came before. Same number of limbs, same range of movement
as always.

As far as training goes, in the US I found that most TMA school are just too easy, but then many of them are glorified babysitters and after school programs (even offering home work help at a Shotokan school in my area here in Queens). I had the luxury as a kid of training all over the world (dad is a scientist with Alcoa, step dad an economist, mom a banker). Some of the best and toughest training I've ever gotten was in Seido from Master Errol Lyn in Jamaica. Full classes on an asphalt basketball court with lots of push up and sit ups. Tough stuff man.

MMA classes seem to capture that. The fitness level opf those guys is amazingg, they really go hard in training while most TMA schools it's pretty light stuff.

 

[Aiki Lee]

There is a book out there called "the secret of shotokan". I don't remember the author's name, but he discusses ways in which he believes karate practice should be updated while still maintaining its traditions in order to be more effective.

As for toughening of hands and feet, I think some of that should be present, but it doesn't have to be as extreme as others think it should be. After all no one is going to be punching through armor anytime soon.

 

[Omar B]

That's one school of though, updateing training works only if the form and moment of the fundamental style is kept and the changes improve the results of that training. From what I've seen in many schools (less callsethenics, allowing students to sit when tired, allowing them to leave for bathroom, water) does nothing to help toughen the student or yeild quicker results, it just makes it easier for them to make it through the class.

 

[Cirdan]

I think of the so called body conditioning more as body destruction. Destroying the nerves removes a vital sensitivity from the high-tech weapons your limbs and body are. Instead you are left with misformed clubs that in addition will grow increasingly useless and painful as you age. I would much rather increase my sensitivity.

Meet hard with soft and soft with hard.

 

[Big Don]

I've also heard "That wasn't Karate, you punched me in the face(gut, whatever)" and/or "That wasn't Karate, you kicked me in the nuts!"

 

[blindsage]

I practiced Kyokushinkai for a number of years, and they do regular full contact sparring, and are fairly well regarded in MMA circles. They also maintain traditional stanches, punches, blocks, and forms. But the full-contact sparring was an innovation for Karate when Mas Oyama started doing it with his students on a regular basis. And they regularly beat other karateka, and still do. TMA can be effective and powerful, but they have to take the reality of fighting into account moreso today than ever. Some have lost the reality of fighting somewhere along the line. I'm now studying some traditional CMA because I think it has a lot to offer, but my background in Kyokushin, Small Circle Jui-Jitsu, arnis, and some other practical styles is what allows me to see the usefulness and real world applications in what I'm studying now. I know I have to be prepared for low roundhouse kicks, I can't just pretend they don't exist, and so I can look for applications in the techniques and principles of my current style for how to deal with those.

 

[still learning]

Hello, To learn ot fight...one must fight to learn.

In the old traditonal days....full contact sparring was the norm. Every day of the week.

Kyokushinkai....there students are some the toughest Martial artist! and there training proves full contact sparring is effective learning tool.

Aloha,

 

[chinto]

yes I have heard that statement of "karate doesn't work." and that is BS.

do you have to condition your hands and feet? no but its fine in moderation and done correctly. DO NOT condition your hands on a makiwara with out proper training, as doing so might result in injurys over time that will be a problem.

our dojo does use the makiwara and we do do some conditioning. My sensei has done so moderately for 30 years with out injury or loss of dextarity.

 

[seasoned]

At first it is all about SD, but as time goes by it is the love of your art that dictates your training. To a certain extent I want to feel what the masters of old felt.

 

[Hand Sword]

I must disagree....I have seen plenty of evidence of the Kar-otty stuff working without the benefits of hand, foot toughening...

True, I did say that it did. It's just the old schoolers had their weapons so conditioned that as I aluded to, it made defense easier work as destruction came with a block or strike. It's like a personal steel bat. I was also thinking that if "Karate" went back to the old ways of training (New just means new, not necessarily better, as the focus is on money making) would that give credibility back against the MMA crowd (practitoners and the average joe).

 

[Hand Sword]

I think of the so called body conditioning more as body destruction. Destroying the nerves removes a vital sensitivity from the high-tech weapons your limbs and body are. Instead you are left with misformed clubs that in addition will grow increasingly useless and painful as you age. I would much rather increase my sensitivity.

Meet hard with soft and soft with hard.

Did you think that when watching the old timers and their phenomenal skills which came about through conditioning? A good part of what made them greats and effective was that application to training. We all, I think, were mesmorized by them and in awe.

 

[Hand Sword]

At first it is all about SD, but as time goes by it is the love of your art that dictates your training. To a certain extent I want to feel what the masters of old felt.

Is it love for love or love because of its effectiveness for your life?

 

[Cirdan]

Did you think that when watching the old timers and their phenomenal skills which came about through conditioning?

How does skill come about by hardening your knuckles? Punching the wall and striking your fingers into bags of rocks are hardly the best technical training. There are other ways for that. Not all old timers were doing this conditioning either. Some like Hironori Ohtsuka were ahead of their time and advocated training methods less harmful to the body and stances that won`t make your knees give in before you reach 50.