Helping Students Deal With Bullying

[oftheherd1]

She Who Must Be Obeyed is in the mental health field. She likes to say that "normal is just a setting on the dryer." I.E., everyone has some sort of emotional trauma in their life which impacts them to a greater or lesser degree. For some people it is a something that affects them so much that it creates a problem for them somehow in their lives. Others can, more or less, "manage" the emotional trauma. But, according to her, pretty much by the time adulthood is reached everyone has some sort of trauma.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

The last time I was in Korea, back in the mid-80s, I used to watch that program very early Sunday mornings on AFKN (Armed Forces Korea Network). I didn't care for it at first, but it was all that was available. As time went by it grew on me and I liked it. Too bad it isn't in syndication here in the USA.

 

[lklawson]

The last time I was in Korea, back in the mid-80s, I used to watch that program very early Sunday mornings on AFKN (Armed Forces Korea Network). I didn't care for it at first, but it was all that was available. As time went by it grew on me and I liked it. Too bad it isn't in syndication here in the USA.

You have me at a disadvantage, Sir. I'm not sure what program you are referring to.

I was referencing Haggard's Victorian classic She. The primary antagonist of the late 19th Century book, the imortal "Ayesha," is so beautiful and stunningly seductive that all who see her fall under a spell and can refuse nothing she asks. The <ahem> "natives" refer to her in the book as She-who-must-be-obeyed, a sort of title.

I'm something of an anachronism in many ways so I refer to my wife as She Who Must Be Obeyed.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[oftheherd1]

You have me at a disadvantage, Sir. I'm not sure what program you are referring to.

I was referencing Haggard's Victorian classic She. The primary antagonist of the late 19th Century book, the imortal "Ayesha," is so beautiful and stunningly seductive that all who see her fall under a spell and can refuse nothing she asks. The <ahem> "natives" refer to her in the book as She-who-must-be-obeyed, a sort of title.

I'm something of an anachronism in many ways so I refer to my wife as She Who Must Be Obeyed.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

I was referring to a British TV series Rumpole of the Bailey - Wikipedia where the main character was Horace Rumpole. He always (except around her) referred to his wife as She Who Must Be Obeyed. Usually just after some misunderstanding/disagreement or other.

EDIT: I was unaware of the classic She.

 

[Steve]

Unfortunately, a lot of people work on their bullying skills forever too.

Sort of. People use skills that they have success with. I think we actually create bullies sometimes, in spite of our best intentions. And bullying is largely a perception, particularly in adults. I think everyone on this forum can think of one or two bullies who post here regularly. I’d be very surprised if those one or two people were consistent. Depends on whose team you’re on.

 

[Tez3]

I was referring to a British TV series Rumpole of the Bailey - Wikipedia where the main character was Horace Rumpole. He always (except around her) referred to his wife as She Who Must Be Obeyed. Usually just after some misunderstanding/disagreement or other.

EDIT: I was unaware of the classic She.

Brilliant series written by Sir John Mortimer who had a very interesting life, see if you can read his biography 'A Voyage Round my Father'. John Mortimer - Wikipedia

 

[Langenschwert]

Sort of. People use skills that they have success with. I think we actually create bullies sometimes, in spite of our best intentions. And bullying is largely a perception, particularly in adults. I think everyone on this forum can think of one or two bullies who post here regularly. I’d be very surprised if those one or two people were consistent. Depends on whose team you’re on.

And some people are just garbage. I dispute that bullying is a perception. The normalization of that behaviour is what keeps bullies protected, wreaking their havoc on people as they please. The policies enacted by schools embolden bullies. It's like having an injury but not doing physio because it hurts, and the injury fails to heal properly. Likewise dealing with bullies and calling them out on their behaviour is painful and difficult. It requires hard work, which some are adverse to. It requires treating people as individuals, not cogs in the system. Very few schools or HR departments are equipped to deal with it.

 

[JowGaWolf]

But I think the bolded part of your post carries its own dangers.

It's less dangerous than letting someone beat you in your face without trying to protect yourself. This girl was very fortunate that the other girl had weak punches.

 

[Steve]

And some people are just garbage. I dispute that bullying is a perception. The normalization of that behaviour is what keeps bullies protected, wreaking their havoc on people as they please. The policies enacted by schools embolden bullies. It's like having an injury but not doing physio because it hurts, and the injury fails to heal properly. Likewise dealing with bullies and calling them out on their behaviour is painful and difficult. It requires hard work, which some are adverse to. It requires treating people as individuals, not cogs in the system. Very few schools or HR departments are equipped to deal with it.

I think this would be a great discussion to have over a nice dram of scotch. I suspect we would agree on far more than otherwise. It’s clear that, like me, this is a topic you have thought about quite a bit.

Some people are garbage. My point is that these people, as adults, are typically not your grade school bullies. And being garbage isn’t the same as being a bully.

My comment about it being a perception is that as adults, people generally perceive people who oppose them as bullies. Or people with whom they disagree as bullies. Particularly if they’re vocal. I don’t think I’m a bully, but have been called one here. I consider some of the long time posters here to be bullies, but understand that others do not. It’s a perception.

This is a tough subject, however, to discuss in writing, because it’s nuanced. Easy to be misunderstood.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I thought that was the least controversial part of Steve's post. All kids (and all adults, for that matter) have some type of dysfunction.

I ain't got no problem. Who you think your R? You don't know me. You don't own me. Your uncle's cousin is dysfunctional. I don't know you think you are. I'm going to come over there and teach you a lesson or 2. ha ha ha. ok I'm all better now. I had a 6th grade flash back going on. So yeah. Dysfunction lol.

Kids today go through a lot of stuff that I didn't have to go through. Like a school shooting. When I was young that was just a made up fantasy talk. The worst thing I saw in any of my schools was a knife. The worst thing I heard about was as student trying to stab a gym coach or someone getting jumped.

To think about stuff like that as a kid would definitely create mental challenges.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Nothing tongue-in-cheek in my post. We all have places where we don't function well - that's all "dysfunction" means.

What did I tell you about bubble gum on the tree. Fish socks and turtle jams getting in the way of your ham samich. woof woof.. east side. lol.

Yep dysfunction lol.


Wondering how many people try to make sense of all that. lol.

 

[JowGaWolf]

And some people are just garbage.

Very true.

 

[Steve]

What did I tell you about bubble gum on the tree. Fish socks and turtle jams getting in the way of your ham samich. woof woof.. east side. lol.

Yep dysfunction lol.


Wondering how many people try to make sense of all that. lol.

I just figured it was more Cockney rhyming slang.

 

[Langenschwert]

I think this would be a great discussion to have over a nice dram of scotch. I suspect we would agree on far more than otherwise. It’s clear that, like me, this is a topic you have thought about quite a bit.

Some people are garbage. My point is that these people, as adults, are typically not your grade school bullies. And being garbage isn’t the same as being a bully.

My comment about it being a perception is that as adults, people generally perceive people who oppose them as bullies. Or people with whom they disagree as bullies. Particularly if they’re vocal. I don’t think I’m a bully, but have been called one here. I consider some of the long time posters here to be bullies, but understand that others do not. It’s a perception.

This is a tough subject, however, to discuss in writing, because it’s nuanced. Easy to be misunderstood.

It is easy to be misunderstood. I wonder how many school bullies end up being grown up ones? I'm curious about that now.

There is a difference between being assertive and being a bully. Bullying typically involves a power imbalance of some kind, either through hierarchical or physical power, for example a manager, a more popular kid, or a bigger and stronger kid. If the power is equal, then that's a dispute I guess.

I would also posit that if someone is a bully, they are a garbage person. Taking advantage of a weaker person is pretty much the crappiest thing you can do in normal life.

I'm not trying to rustle your jimmies, nor generate more heat than light, FWIW. It's certainly a subject I feel passionately about, having been bullied both as a child and as an adult. I know people who had to hide in dumpsters to avoid getting beaten up after school.

Here's the thing: I don't care if it's hard to deal with bullies. It is the school's responsibility to ensure a safe, nurturing environment for students. That bullying is so prevalent shows the system has dropped the ball, and failed in their due diligence. I seriously doubt that a typical schoolyard bully is too difficult a problem for those with advanced degrees in education to figure out. If it is, we're done for!

 

[JowGaWolf]

It is easy to be misunderstood. I wonder how many school bullies end up being grown up ones? I'm curious about that now.

There is a difference between being assertive and being a bully. Bullying typically involves a power imbalance of some kind, either through hierarchical or physical power, for example a manager, a more popular kid, or a bigger and stronger kid. If the power is equal, then that's a dispute I guess.

I would also posit that if someone is a bully, they are a garbage person. Taking advantage of a weaker person is pretty much the crappiest thing you can do in normal life.

I'm not trying to rustle your jimmies, nor generate more heat than light, FWIW. It's certainly a subject I feel passionately about, having been bullied both as a child and as an adult. I know people who had to hide in dumpsters to avoid getting beaten up after school.

Here's the thing: I don't care if it's hard to deal with bullies. It is the school's responsibility to ensure a safe, nurturing environment for students. That bullying is so prevalent shows the system has dropped the ball, and failed in their due diligence. I seriously doubt that a typical schoolyard bully is too difficult a problem for those with advanced degrees in education to figure out. If it is, we're done for!

I think bullying is a society problem and not a teacher problem. It happens offline and online. It happens locally and globally. We see it in politics and in the workplace through workplace dominance behaviors. Teachers are trained to teach which is why kids train martial arts to help with bullying issues. I personally think that schools should have a martial art curriculum that also includes sparring. I think that would solve a lot of the bullying problems.

 

[oftheherd1]

It is easy to be misunderstood. I wonder how many school bullies end up being grown up ones? I'm curious about that now.

Interesting question. But not interested to try and look up any possible studies on that. I suspect as they move into larger and larger 'ponds' they either become worse bullies, or find they aren't as big a fish as they thought.

QUOTE="Langenschwert, post: 1870008, member: 12678"]There is a difference between being assertive and being a bully. Bullying typically involves a power imbalance of some kind, either through hierarchical or physical power, for example a manager, a more popular kid, or a bigger and stronger kid. If the power is equal, then that's a dispute I guess.

I would also posit that if someone is a bully, they are a garbage person. Taking advantage of a weaker person is pretty much the crappiest thing you can do in normal life.[/QUOTE]

I think the bolded part is the key. Taking advantage on identified weaker people on a consistent basis, for the bully's own gratification by the act.

QUOTE="Langenschwert, post: 1870008, member: 12678"]I'm not trying to rustle your jimmies, nor generate more heat than light, FWIW. It's certainly a subject I feel passionately about, having been bullied both as a child and as an adult. I know people who had to hide in dumpsters to avoid getting beaten up after school.

Here's the thing: I don't care if it's hard to deal with bullies. It is the school's responsibility to ensure a safe, nurturing environment for students. That bullying is so prevalent shows the system has dropped the ball, and failed in their due diligence. I seriously doubt that a typical schoolyard bully is too difficult a problem for those with advanced degrees in education to figure out. If it is, we're done for! [/QUOTE]

I agree with the bolded part. And most schools make an attempt to do so. I don't agree with "zero tolerance" as the correct attempt. And as much as I tend to bristle when I hear of that policy, I realize we just don't give them the tools we used to. Some schools feel lucky if they have a School Resource Officer they can call. And that person will no doubt be under the scrutiny of many cell phones. It isn't unheard of that a part of a SRO's intervention will be placed on Youtube; specifically that part that shows physical force being used to control a resisting student. A student throwing a first punch doesn't always end up there.

Lacking an RSO, or during the time it takes as SRO to get there, should they intervene physically? What do you think will happen to that teacher? Can any school system count on every single parent to agree that physical intervention was correct in the first place, never mind done correctly?

Its one of the reasons I couldn't be a teacher in high schools or below. I used to teach as an adjunct professor. The classes consisted mostly of military personnel who were giving up some money and free time. Those are precious things to most people in the military. They wanted to learn - no disciplinary problems there.

 

[Steve]

It is easy to be misunderstood. I wonder how many school bullies end up being grown up ones? I'm curious about that now.

There is a difference between being assertive and being a bully. Bullying typically involves a power imbalance of some kind, either through hierarchical or physical power, for example a manager, a more popular kid, or a bigger and stronger kid. If the power is equal, then that's a dispute I guess.

I would also posit that if someone is a bully, they are a garbage person. Taking advantage of a weaker person is pretty much the crappiest thing you can do in normal life.

I'm not trying to rustle your jimmies, nor generate more heat than light, FWIW. It's certainly a subject I feel passionately about, having been bullied both as a child and as an adult. I know people who had to hide in dumpsters to avoid getting beaten up after school.

Here's the thing: I don't care if it's hard to deal with bullies. It is the school's responsibility to ensure a safe, nurturing environment for students. That bullying is so prevalent shows the system has dropped the ball, and failed in their due diligence. I seriously doubt that a typical schoolyard bully is too difficult a problem for those with advanced degrees in education to figure out. If it is, we're done for!

Dangit. I lost a long post and have to start over. Grrr. Oh well. It was too wordy anyway.

The gist of what I was saying is that bullying looks very different. First, I've said before and just to provide context, I see very little difference between a bully and a kid who is being bullied. In these situations, the kids are as likely to change roles as otherwise. And I say this as a kid who was bullied relentlessly much like your friends. Let me try to explain. First, just a disclaimer. As I said earlier, this is a nuanced and complex subject. I'm necessarily simplifying it to try and communicate my point without writing a dissertation.

Kids sometimes need protection from harm, but the harm they run into now is in the form of guns, drugs and gangs. These are not bullies. Bullying in schools now, precisely because of the zero tolerance policies, is social, emotional and intellectual. The kids who were encouraged to bully in decades gone have been effectively neutralized. They are no longer able to vent their frustrations (whatever those might be) by physically tormenting other kids. And, further, these kids are often the victims of bullying now. They are frustrated because they lack some basic social skills. They may have trouble reading or have problems at home or whatever. And other kids, the kids who might once have been bullied, have ascended. Point is, sure, there may be the quintessential bully somewhere. That big, dumb jock who stuffs the smaller kid into a locker. There is also that small kid who is tormenting the big, dumb jock because he has trouble reading or is in a remedial math class. It's a much more subtle and often invisible form of bullying, and because kids are often very plugged into the social networks, there can be less opportunity to find safe places to release the pressure.

With regards to adults, how often do you see physical altercations at work? How often are employees stuffed into a coat closet by their manager? I would wager that this is exceedingly rare. I've been in the business of training, coaching, and counseling managers for over 15 years, and I've never heard of this. I have worked with a lot of workplace bullies, and it is always social, emotional or intellectual in nature. Who do you think the workplace bullies are? I would suggest that they were kids who were either socially, emotionally or intellectually bullying kids in school or who were the victims of bullying. Either way, they are now in a position of authority and don't know how to manage conflict.

Okay, so, do bullies see themselves as bullies? Maybe sometimes, but usually, no. I don't think so, which is what I mean by it being a perception. Now, I get that it feels crappy and can be very, very toxic to a workplace. I just think that a manager who is a bully is often just a manager who is very insecure and uncomfortable with conflict.

Last thing and then I'll stop. Are you familiar with the Thomas Kilmann conflict styles model? It's been around for a long time and I don't want to dwell on it too much. In a few words, it's a model that suggests that there are five strategies for dealing with conflict, along two axis (cooperativeness and assertiveness). It's often misunderstood to suggest that some are good and others are bad (the classic "win-lose" or "win-win" stuff). In the picture below, there are four. The fifth is referred to as compromise and would be right in the middle.

Bullies tend to be at home in the competition style. They are highly assertive and also highly uncooperative. I bring this up specifically because there is one phenomenon I have observed over and over and over again. Literally hundreds of times in my professional career. A manager who is insecure and uncomfortable with conflict will avoid it inappropriately. They will fail to address it until it cannot be avoided any longer. They will ping from very non-assertive and uncooperative to highly assertive and uncooperative. They will steel themselves for the conflict and will unload on the employee. I'm sure you can think of examples of this. It happens all the time. And the point is that to the person on the receiving end of that, it will feel exactly the same whether the person is a bully or not.

We can talk about how this manifests in some common workplace bullying behaviors, such as calling employees out, applying unfair standards, moving the goal posts, undermining authority or others, but I hope that this makes sense in this context.

So, the last thing I will say is to ask how learning to fight is going to help anyone, adult or child, with any of this? Don't get me wrong. I think it might, but not because a person is learning to fight. Maybe the question should be, how is learning a martial art going to help anyone, adult or child, with bullying better than learning to play the tuba in the school marching band, joining the scouts, or playing baseball?

 

[drop bear]

And some people are just garbage. I dispute that bullying is a perception. The normalization of that behaviour is what keeps bullies protected, wreaking their havoc on people as they please. The policies enacted by schools embolden bullies. It's like having an injury but not doing physio because it hurts, and the injury fails to heal properly. Likewise dealing with bullies and calling them out on their behaviour is painful and difficult. It requires hard work, which some are adverse to. It requires treating people as individuals, not cogs in the system. Very few schools or HR departments are equipped to deal with it.

You can get the same lack of empathy from professional victims.

 

[drop bear]

A manager who is insecure and uncomfortable with conflict will avoid it inappropriately. They will fail to address it until it cannot be avoided any longer. They will ping from very non-assertive and uncooperative to highly assertive and uncooperative. They will steel themselves for the conflict and will unload on the employee. I'm sure you can think of examples of this. It happens all the time. And the point is that to the person on the receiving end of that, it will feel exactly the same whether the person is a bully or not.

Bouncers who are always duche bags because it is a bit crap to go choking out someone you are friends with.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Frankly there's not much you can do against a gang you try and fight them you'll get your *** kicked badly. Best thing is to avoid or run away

Or you can focus on taking out the leader. When there's a gang of bullies one of them is going to be the leader, usually the biggest and meanest. A would be victim could focus everything on taking out the leader and just totally charge the leader, just like in Christmas Story. When the gang sees their leader being taken down they will lose their morale and most likely back off.

 

[Tez3]

When the gang sees their leader being taken down they will lose their morale and most likely back off.

More likely they will pile in and beat the bejasus out of you.