Head pressure - good, bad, or gray area?

[Wing Woo Gar]

There is a very good chance the no-stripe white belt literally does not know better at this point in his training. He is not playing a stupid game, he is trying to get a submission, without knowing how to do so.

Fair enough, we don’t really know what this guy was doing or why. I am a rank beginner in BJJ but I expect the instructor to give me a specific thing to work on and not just let two beginners go at it until they figure it out. This may be my biggest gripe because I don’t want to be injured during training over some nonsense. I have better ways to waste time. I’m not really learning much as a beginner if I’m just trying to protect myself from some guys ego driven urge to “win”. If it’s a match or a fight, that’s fine, but I don’t go to class for competition sake, I go to learn.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Fair enough, we don’t really know what this guy was doing or why. I am a rank beginner in BJJ but I expect the instructor to give me a specific thing to work on and not just let two beginners go at it until they figure it out. This may be my biggest gripe because I don’t want to be injured during training over some nonsense. I have better ways to waste time. I’m not really learning much as a beginner if I’m just trying to protect myself from some guys ego driven urge to “win”. If it’s a match or a fight, that’s fine, but I don’t go to class for competition sake, I go to learn.

My experience with BJJ is that there's a lot of "drill this bit for the first half of class, then try to remember that and roll for the second half...include it if you can". Obviously not universal, but in the 3 bjj places I've been that's how it's worked. There's upsides and downsides to that approach, and I'm not anywhere near experienced enough in BJJ (at white belt level myself) to say if it's good or bad for the system.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I don’t go to class for competition sake, I go to learn.

You are in the minority on this one. You probably got a seat close to mine.in terms of training to learn. I've met many people who had the win or lose mentality.

Some people see training as
1. Win/lose -> Learn
2. Make Mistakes / Learn -> Win.

I'm definitely #2. I think it's a faster path to learning techniques, at least it is for me.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Unfortunately this is not a good option if you’re being held in mount - against anyone with a little knowledge you’ll likely expose your arms and end up in a worse position

If your opponent tries to deal with your arm/arms, he has to release his head squeeze first. Your problem has been solved. If your arms can't deal with your opponent's arms, that's different issue.

"Head lock" can be countered by "eyebrow wiping". But "eyebrow wiping" can also be countered by ...

I don't have video for "eyebrows wiping" used in the ground game. But it's used in stand up commonly. Your arm strength is always stronger than your opponent's neck strength.



The most common head lock counter:

In my experience squeezing the head from mount doesn’t really achieve anything.

Apparently, you have not experienced a strong head squeeze yet.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Apparently, you have not experienced a strong head squeeze yet.

Squeezing is something that isn't often trained by people Normally people develop strong grips, but gripping is not squeezing.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Squeezing is something that isn't often trained by people Normally people develop strong grips, but gripping is not squeezing.

I always suggest people to test their head squeeze power against a small watermelon to see if they can crack it open with their arm squeeze (Larger watermelon is easier. Small watermelon is harder).

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Some people see training as
1. Win/lose -> Learn
2. Make Mistakes / Learn -> Win.

I'm definitely #2. I think it's a faster path to learning techniques, at least it is for me.

Both are needed.

If you are always focused on win/lose, you get stuck doing the things that you know work for you, and you might get good at them, but you never expand your knowledge. This is true for things beyond sparring, and results in people getting fairly consistently to a certain level, but then they plateau and will remain stuck if they don't take a step back and re-evaluate.

If you're goal is always just to learn, you end up okay not winning. So you can develop all the skills that you need, but you don't fight as hard to get the win, which means you end up missing some tweakings in that final stage. This will also work to a certain point, but if someone never gets serious about trying to win in practice, and gain experience with that specific struggle, there will be opponents they don't win against, and they'll plateau and will remain stuck if they don't take a step back and re-evaluate.

Ultimately, you need to spend a lot of time focusing on learning, rather than winning, while also spend some time actively focusing on winning-ideally when the opponent is too.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Both are needed.

If you are always focused on win/lose, you get stuck doing the things that you know work for you, and you might get good at them, but you never expand your knowledge. This is true for things beyond sparring, and results in people getting fairly consistently to a certain level, but then they plateau and will remain stuck if they don't take a step back and re-evaluate.

If you're goal is always just to learn, you end up okay not winning. So you can develop all the skills that you need, but you don't fight as hard to get the win, which means you end up missing some tweakings in that final stage. This will also work to a certain point, but if someone never gets serious about trying to win in practice, and gain experience with that specific struggle, there will be opponents they don't win against, and they'll plateau and will remain stuck if they don't take a step back and re-evaluate.

Ultimately, you need to spend a lot of time focusing on learning, rather than winning, while also spend some time actively focusing on winning-ideally when the opponent is too.

My old fencing club used to have round-robin competitions about once a week or so (maybe every other week), where we'd fence seriously against everyone else in our weapon, and use that to determine who would compete/rankings. The rest of the time it didn't matter, so I could beat you monday through thursday, but if you beat me friday when it mattered, you might be in the next meet and not me.

To me that provided a good balance, since most of the week we can spend improving our skills, testing out new things, practicing specific stuff, then we also had instances where we would actively be trying to win, and our opponent would to, provided some better pressure testing of all the stuff we'd been working on for the past weeks/months.

 

[skribs]

My experience with BJJ is that there's a lot of "drill this bit for the first half of class, then try to remember that and roll for the second half...include it if you can". Obviously not universal, but in the 3 bjj places I've been that's how it's worked. There's upsides and downsides to that approach, and I'm not anywhere near experienced enough in BJJ (at white belt level myself) to say if it's good or bad for the system.

Mine is 1/3 drilling, 1/3 positional rolling, and 1/3 live rolling. Exact proportions vary day-to-day.

I do wish there was more of a "fundamentals class" approach to white belts.

 

[BobY777]

I know it's not entirely realistic, but I've seen The Mountain vs. The Viper fight in Game of Thrones.

But that was fingers to the eyes. Different situation!

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I do wish there was more of a "fundamentals class" approach to white belts.

Same. The one place I spent the most time (a year, then on/off while I attended there other classes), the first 2 weeks (10 classes total) instead of drilling with everyone else, I'd pair off with an instructor and another new student and we'd practice transitioning from side to mount to guard, and basic defenses. Then go roll with everyone else and fail at using any of it

I've noticed that other people who didn't attend daily got the same two weeks of that., so instead of 10 classes they might have 2-4 of those. And there was always this complaint 2 months in that people felt they were learning things, and then it'd be out of there mind by the next class. I'm pretty sure that it was because they didn't understand the underlying techniques. I felt it too, but I have very different goals for BJJ then most, so it didn't impact me as much.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Squeezing is something that isn't often trained by people Normally people develop strong grips, but gripping is not squeezing.

MA is 50% skill and 50% ability. The ability part is harder to develop.

 

[skribs]

But that was fingers to the eyes. Different situation!

I believe that was just to establish the grip.

 

[skribs]

Same. The one place I spent the most time (a year, then on/off while I attended there other classes), the first 2 weeks (10 classes total) instead of drilling with everyone else, I'd pair off with an instructor and another new student and we'd practice transitioning from side to mount to guard, and basic defenses. Then go roll with everyone else and fail at using any of it

I've noticed that other people who didn't attend daily got the same two weeks of that., so instead of 10 classes they might have 2-4 of those. And there was always this complaint 2 months in that people felt they were learning things, and then it'd be out of there mind by the next class. I'm pretty sure that it was because they didn't understand the underlying techniques. I felt it too, but I have very different goals for BJJ then most, so it didn't impact me as much.

I think my issue is more with the number of techniques drilled per class and the randomness of what's done each week. I've seen a couple of discussions or videos where people describe a more structured approach at white belt. The one I've seen most common is that you teach a "system" or "combination" at a time. For example, a "system" might be how to break the guard, toreando pass into side control, transition to knee-on-belly, then mount, then go for an Americana. I use this example because that's a typical roll for me (on bottom).

Another approach I can think of, based on my TKD and HKD experience, would be to have a set of skills that white belts regularly drill. For example, a few times each of a couple of closed guard sweeps, closed guard submissions, closed guard passes, side control escapes, mount escapes, back escapes, and submissions from each position. It wouldn't leave much time for rolls, but it would get a set of foundations into long-term muscle memory faster in my opinion.

And I'm not saying do that forever. But maybe until 1st stripe.

My plan in my future TKD school is to take a similar approach - a set of techniques practiced consistently in high quantities at the foundation level, and then expand on that in a more modern "technique of the day" approach at the advanced level.

 

[drop bear]

Fair enough, we don’t really know what this guy was doing or why. I am a rank beginner in BJJ but I expect the instructor to give me a specific thing to work on and not just let two beginners go at it until they figure it out. This may be my biggest gripe because I don’t want to be injured during training over some nonsense. I have better ways to waste time. I’m not really learning much as a beginner if I’m just trying to protect myself from some guys ego driven urge to “win”. If it’s a match or a fight, that’s fine, but I don’t go to class for competition sake, I go to learn.

I am the same. Which is why I am generally happy to deal with a bigger guy who is attacking me wrong.

They are the kind of problems I like to solve.

 

[drop bear]

I think my issue is more with the number of techniques drilled per class and the randomness of what's done each week. I've seen a couple of discussions or videos where people describe a more structured approach at white belt. The one I've seen most common is that you teach a "system" or "combination" at a time. For example, a "system" might be how to break the guard, toreando pass into side control, transition to knee-on-belly, then mount, then go for an Americana. I use this example because that's a typical roll for me (on bottom).

Another approach I can think of, based on my TKD and HKD experience, would be to have a set of skills that white belts regularly drill. For example, a few times each of a couple of closed guard sweeps, closed guard submissions, closed guard passes, side control escapes, mount escapes, back escapes, and submissions from each position. It wouldn't leave much time for rolls, but it would get a set of foundations into long-term muscle memory faster in my opinion.

And I'm not saying do that forever. But maybe until 1st stripe.

My plan in my future TKD school is to take a similar approach - a set of techniques practiced consistently in high quantities at the foundation level, and then expand on that in a more modern "technique of the day" approach at the advanced level.

If only we could create systems. Then we could develop a consistent game plan to develop our style.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

I am the same. Which is why I am generally happy to deal with a bigger guy who is attacking me wrong.

They are the kind of problems I like to solve.

Sure, that makes sense for someone at your skill level. My BJJ skills are nearly nonexistent, so at my level it’s just two people flailing around and not really learning much. If it then turns into just trying to “win,” using whatever comes to mind, I’m not willing to pay money for that. I’m also not willing to pay money to have you just lay on me without any instruction on how to get out, I have a woman for that who does it for free. Ok not exactly free, but 100 bucks says she looks and smells better in a gi.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Both are needed.

If you are always focused on win/lose, you get stuck doing the things that you know work for you, and you might get good at them, but you never expand your knowledge. This is true for things beyond sparring, and results in people getting fairly consistently to a certain level, but then they plateau and will remain stuck if they don't take a step back and re-evaluate.

If you're goal is always just to learn, you end up okay not winning. So you can develop all the skills that you need, but you don't fight as hard to get the win, which means you end up missing some tweakings in that final stage. This will also work to a certain point, but if someone never gets serious about trying to win in practice, and gain experience with that specific struggle, there will be opponents they don't win against, and they'll plateau and will remain stuck if they don't take a step back and re-evaluate.

Ultimately, you need to spend a lot of time focusing on learning, rather than winning, while also spend some time actively focusing on winning-ideally when the opponent is too.

Well I have sparred and I have fought, I don’t want to downplay the lessons it teaches, but there is a diminishing return on fights and full contact hard sparring. If I get injured and spend 6 weeks recovering, then I may have gotten more from 6 weeks of hard training and focused drills than I did from 3-45 minutes of fighting or sparring. Furthermore, if I did that fight or hard sparring without first getting some good instruction and drilling practice, then I am even more likely to sustain an injury and even less likely to learn much from that event. I am not someone who will tolerate being abused, even out of ignorance. If they want to fight, fine, but then they shouldn’t assume I will do that fairly, or at a time of their choosing. There is a lesson in that as well.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Well I have sparred and I have fought, I don’t want to downplay the lessons it teaches, but there is a diminishing return on fights and full contact hard sparring. If I get injured and spend 6 weeks recovering, then I may have gotten more from 6 weeks of hard training and focused drills than I did from 3-45 minutes of fighting or sparring. Furthermore, if I did that fight or hard sparring without first getting some good instruction and drilling practice, then I am even more likely to sustain an injury and even less likely to learn much from that event. I am not someone who will tolerate being abused, even out of ignorance. If they want to fight, fine, but then they shouldn’t assume I will do that fairly, or at a time of their choosing. There is a lesson in that as well.

I'm not saying that fighting or full contact sparring is necessary. I'm saying sparring to win occasionally is necessary.

And like I said, this isn't just for fighting. If I play chess, I can spend a ton of time trying out new strategies, but if I don't make earnest attempts to win occasionally, I'll be lacking.

If I play basketball, I can drill rebounding in one-on-ones, focus on defense, try my 3 point, whatever. But if I don't try to win, I won't know when to do the right thing to maximize that, and I won't have the confidence to rely on what's my actual strength, when I enter an actual game.

None of that has to do with fighting, risking injury, or being abused. and I wasn't replying to anything stating that either, I was replying to jowga saying 2. Make Mistakes / Learn -> Win. is preferred over 1. Win/lose -> Learn, implying that this is a binary choice, not a spectrum.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

I'm not saying that fighting or full contact sparring is necessary. I'm saying sparring to win occasionally is necessary.

And like I said, this isn't just for fighting. If I play chess, I can spend a ton of time trying out new strategies, but if I don't make earnest attempts to win occasionally, I'll be lacking.

If I play basketball, I can drill rebounding in one-on-ones, focus on defense, try my 3 point, whatever. But if I don't try to win, I won't know when to do the right thing to maximize that, and I won't have the confidence to rely on what's my actual strength, when I enter an actual game.

None of that has to do with fighting, risking injury, or being abused. and I wasn't replying to anything stating that either, I was replying to jowga saying 2. Make Mistakes / Learn -> Win. is preferred over 1. Win/lose -> Learn, implying that this is a binary choice, not a spectrum.

I guess I’m missing your point then. I can’t imagine not doing everything possible to win a fight. With sparring I’m trying to figure things out, and trying new things because the risk is lower, but definitely striving to be successful(win). Maybe you can help me understand the subtle difference between what you mean and what I thought I heard? It sounds like we are missing each other ever so slightly but I want to get the gist of what you are saying.