Has olympic Taekwondo ruined the reputation of the art?

[Tez3]

No I didn't.

Pepsi anyone? or Irn Bru, it's made in Scotland from girders! absolutely lush, to make this truly off topic, here's the latest ad for it, yes it is shown on national television.

 

[TrueJim]

Anyone attributing WTF/KKWs prominence to anything other than politics (wheter Choi brought it on himself is up for debate) is delusional.

I think there are multiple factors, of which politics was one.

• Most of the kwans kept with the KTA, and that fact alone gives any KTA-sponsored style a big boost right there.

• Kukkiwon/WTF-style lends itself especially well to sport competition, which makes it a popular choice for people who are looking for a sport (rather than a martial art per se), and especially for parents who are looking for a comparatively "non-violent" sport that their children/teens can do year-round. The more "martial" aspect of ITF-style may be a turn-off for people who aren't primarily interested in the self-defense aspects of taekwondo.
  
  
• The ITF itself split into at least three pieces (or more, if you also count other splinters such as the GTF), and it's hard to maintain preeminence when you keep splitting up into smaller and smaller federations.

There's another way to look at this too: the South Korean dictatorships were able to shut-down the non-Kukki dojangs in South Korea...but only in South Korea. So the politics of the old South Korean dictatorships doesn't necessarily explain why Kukkiwon-style is so popular outside of South Korea.

 

[Laplace_demon]

ITF was dominated by WTF torneys and KKW long before the split. ITF competitions are so small that they aren't even important enough to complain about. Very few watches or broadcasts them.

There are two things you can be assured of in this world: One: A former WTF/KKW asserting that he had useless hands when starting to kickbox (Because of their sparring format dominating their entire training), and secondly: that few people know that there exist an ITF TKD alternative.

 

[Tez3]

There are two things you can be assured of in this world:

Yes, death and taxes.

Are you going to cite your sources for your statements?

 

[Laplace_demon]

Yes, death and taxes.

Are you going to cite your sources for your statements?

Online people, all saying the exact same thing about their experience of KKW, including myself. Their hands are non existent.

 

[Tez3]

Online people, all saying the exact same thing about their experience of KKW, including myself. Their hands are non existent.

So, where on online?

 

[TrueJim]

ITF was dominated by WTF torneys and KKW long before the split.

So let me see if I follow your logic here.

1. First, you assert as your thesis statement that Kukkiwon-style taekwondo is preeminent worldwide for only one reason: because of the politics of old South Korea dictatorships. You further assert that anyone who believes otherwise is delusional.
   
   
2. I provide three other considerations that also factor into the preeminence of Kukkiwon-style taekwondo. By definition, that alone would demonstrate that indeed: there are other factors besides just politics.
   
   
3. You however choose to debate only one of the three factors I listed, leaving the other two completely unaddressed.
   
   
4. I further point-out that the politics of old South Korea would have primarily affected the preeminence of Kukkiwon-style only inside South Korea, not outside South Korea, and you likewise don't address that part of my argument. In fact, you even go on to point out that Kukkiwon-style taekwondo is preeminent even outside South Korea, thereby arguing against your own thesis statement!
   
   
5. But despite all those logical fallacies, you're still sticking to your original claim that the preeminence is primarily due to politics, and as evidence of this, you point out (a) one athlete who found Kukkiwon-style relatively unhelpful when he switched to kickboxing (which is an irrelevant non sequiter to the question of what role politics played); and (b) you also point out that relatively few people know that ITF taekwondo is an alternative (which is itself tautological with part of your original thesis statement in the first place).

Not only have you failed to prove your first point (that the only reason for the preeminence is politics), you've failed miserably to prove your second point (that anyone who believes otherwise is delusional). If anything, you've shown that there are perfectly good, non-delusional reasons to believe that the preeminence of Kukkiwon-style takewondo is due to a combination of factors of which politics is just one.

I contend that calling people delusional for believing something that is perfectly valid and is likely even true is both illogical and unnecessary. A more fair-minded approach would have been to ask the question, to what extent do we believe that politics are a contributing factor in the preeminence of Kukkiwon-style taekwondo? That, at least, would have been an interesting question.

 

[Laplace_demon]

WTF/KKW TKD also took over outside of South Korea is for the same reason - several places in the world simply don't have ITF dojangs nearby. I cannot comment on why that is, but the end result means that it's functionally the same - KKW/WTF domination. I am rather fortunate in my country to have an ITF club nearby.

If they don't have it, then it's pretty hard to not pick KKW TKD instead of no TKD at all.. There are other TKD styles as well with less than ideal reputation, but let's not go there...

 

[Laplace_demon]

Someone explained that it's related to being affiliated with North Korea. But that doesn't really makes sense given that A) ITF is not and has never been North Korean and B) ITF Headquarters are NOT in North Korea. Not now or before the split.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Anyone attributing WTF/KKWs prominence to anything other than politics (wheter Choi brought it on himself is up for debate) is delusional.

Acting as if the WTF and the KKW are synonymous is delusional.

 

[Laplace_demon]

Acting as if the WTF and the KKW are synonymous is delusional.

They are in most places. KKWS train and compete under WTF sparring rules. And the South Korean government supported WTF.

 

[TrueJim]

They are in most places. KKWS train and compete under WTF sparring rules. And the South Korean government supported WTF.

But Kukkiwon-style taekwondo includes more than just tournament-style sparring. To demonstrate that fact, you don't even have to look any further than the Kukkiwon webpage itself. As just one example, check out this webpage:

World Taekwondo Headquarters

On that webpage, the Kukkiwon itself defines its style to include some types of joint locks, tripping and sweeping techniques, and grappling, none of which are incorporated into WTF-style tournament sparring. Kukkiwon-style schools (including the one I attend) incorporate self-defense into their curriculums, in addition to tournament sparring.

If anything, I would think it's more accurate to say that WTF-style sparring incorporates a subset of the Kukkiwon-style curriculum, specifically the subset that focuses on kicking.

 

[Laplace_demon]

But Kukkiwon-style taekwondo includes more than just tournament-style sparring. To demonstrate that fact, you don't even have to look any further than the Kukkiwon webpage itself. As just one example, check out this webpage:

World Taekwondo Headquarters

On that webpage, the Kukkiwon itself defines its style to include some types of joint locks, tripping and sweeping techniques, and grappling, none of which are incorporated into WTF-style tournament sparring. Kukkiwon-style schools (including the one I attend) incorporate self-defense into their curriculums, in addition to tournament sparring.

If anything, I would think it's more accurate to say that WTF-style sparring incorporates a subset of the Kukkiwon-style curriculum, specifically the subset that focuses on kicking.

Many would be surprised to know that there are KKW schools which employ ITF patterns with WTF sparring. The reason for this is the attraction of WTF competitions such as the Olympiad, while many masters actually much preferred Chois patterns. A perhaps small victory for the General

 

[Dirty Dog]

They are in most places.

Really? They are? You've determined this how, exactly?

A philosophy student, even if they're just an undergrad, ought to know that you need a reasonable sample size. So tell us, exactly how many KKW schools have you trained at for long enough to have determined that they are purely sport-oriented?

I'm going to guess the actual answer is zero.

Or is this something your mythical daddy told you and you're just parroting it?

KKWS train and compete under WTF sparring rules. And the South Korean government supported WTF.

KKW schools do train under WTF rules. So do we. But in neither our, nor KKW schools in general, is there any reason to think that is ALL we train.

The South Korean government also supports the KKW. And lots of other groups.

 

[Laplace_demon]

Really? They are? You've determined this how, exactly?

A philosophy student, even if they're just an undergrad, ought to know that you need a reasonable sample size. So tell us, exactly how many KKW schools have you trained at for long enough to have determined that they are purely sport-oriented?
.

How do I know that? Because they cheerish their damn Olympics. I will never understand why. I can watch any martial art show, including Boxing, but I cannot sit through an entire WTF match.

 

[Dirty Dog]

How do I know that? Because they cheerish their damn Olympics. I will never understand why. I can watch any martial art show, including Boxing, but I cannot sit through an entire WTF match.

I notice (as I'm sure others do as well) that you didn't answer the question. So I'll assume that I was correct to surmise that the answer is either "none" or it's just something your mythical father said in one of your dreams.

 

[Laplace_demon]

I notice (as I'm sure others do as well) that you didn't answer the question. So I'll assume that I was correct to surmise that the answer is either "none" or it's just something your mythical father said in one of your dreams.

Yes I did. Every single TKD guy I have ever talked to or read about online have done KKW with WTF sparring only. This is the norm.

 

[Gnarlie]

Yes I did. Every single TKD guy I have ever talked to or read about online have done KKW with WTF sparring only. This is the norm.

There are up to 18 different types of sparring in the KKW range, many of which are still used at a lot of clubs. Most of them involve heavy use of hands and vital point targets all over the body.

As far as weak hands goes, we've already addressed that point in other threads, and you are wrong.

Regarding the ITF syllabus being more self defence oriented: also wrong. Outside of a few isolated techniques, there's nothing in the ITF training regimen that isn't also part of the KKW syllabus.

Frankly, you are not in a position to posit what 'the norm' is. What grade did you reach at this one KKW place you trained at?

 

[Jaeimseu]

How do I know that? Because they cheerish their damn Olympics. I will never understand why. I can watch any martial art show, including Boxing, but I cannot sit through an entire WTF match.

What's not to understand? They set out to create a competition that would be unique in the MA world, which it is. They sought to use this competition as a vehicle to promote both Taekwondo and Korea worldwide, which they have done. For years they tried to get into the Olympic Games. The talk had been that ITF and WTF would have to unite to make it happen, yet eventually they succeeded in their goal. If you worked to accomplish a goal for 30+ years, you wouldn't cherish it?

Just because you don't happen to like watching a sport doesn't make it less valid or unworthy. I'm sure there are many Europeans who can't understand why Americans like American football.

 

[K-man]

I'm sure there are many Europeans who can't understand why Americans like American football.

Don't limit that to Europeans!