Hapkido Q&A's

[American HKD]

Dear Bruce,

You seen this another form of HKD for a week in Korea and have been training in Hapkido for how long?
Master Whalen mentioned the style to me and it doesn't sound like the end all Hapkido style although he said it was good style with hard training.

Your Master Myung proudly tells all how Choi was his teacher when we all know it was Ji Han Jae. The point I'm making is Master Myung should have shown you and all his students this superior type of Hapkido unless he keeps it for himself as secret techniques.

The reason I'm having a hard time with all of this is many people are Choi's direct students not just Jung Ki Kwan how do they only know the alleged better form of Hapkido then people from the Ji tradition and many ohtes who trainned with Choi too.

Ji Han Jae
Kwan Sik Myung
Bong Soo Han
Hwang in Sik
Wollmenhauser ( 3rd dan Choi Yoong Sul )
Rim Jung Bae ( 6th dan Choi )
Many other Etc.

Somethings smells bad here if all these people have low level tech and only the Jung Ki Kwan know the true Art?

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Stuart:

I'm not altogether sure I know what you are asking but I can venture a guess about what I think you are asking because I have thought about it myself for sometime.

Arguably Ji has been the root of a great number of branches of the Hapkido arts. I don't think he is at all shy about identifying various people (including KS Myung) as his students. Now there is a lot of pride to be found in that, but there is also a limit. Ji trained with Choi for a goodly number of years before steping out and starting his own tradition called the Song Mu Kwan. What that tells me is that everyone who descends from his tradition could learn no more from him than what he learned from Choi in the time that he was a student. Nothing wrong with this and as I have said a number of times people like Myung, Kwang Sik and Bong Soo Han and Myung Jae Nam etc etc etc have made full careers following the yu sool level of the Hapkido arts. People can stay at that level for their entire career and not "miss-out" as far as I'm concerned. (And if the personalities in this country DID learn EVERYTHING that Choi had to teach, and purposely kept this material underwraps for the last 25 years from even their top students I figure they have a LOT to answer for!) Where the difference comes in is when someone gets towards the top of the Hapkido pyramid and starts looking around for the next mountain to climb. As I mentioned before my sword work is the same thing. I COULD have stayed at the level that Myung teaches sword, but decided I wanted to take my practice up another level. Its the same thing with the Hapkido arts. hapkiyusool is not the "be-all-&-end-all" of Hapkido. There is still "hapki sool" after "hapki yu sool". What it takes is a willingness to start over. By this I mean that progress through the Hapkido arts is a spiral. You come around full-circle and find yourself at a new leve, thats true, but you still have to approach it as a newby. I was only the 3rd person to be allowed to tape the hapkiyusool opening curriculum by Dojunim Kims' report. People who have viewed that tape get a real kick out of seeing me in a white uniform and a white belt after 19 years of Hapkido training. When I left I was given a Black Belt. It DOES'NT MEAN I have a Black Belt in Hapkiyusool. What it means is that Dojunim Kim recognized my background and acknowledged that I wasn't a White belt and that he was willing to accept me into the kwan. But, when he awarded me my certificate at the end of the week---- it was for 8th guep. Thats how its done. Make sense?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[American HKD]

Dear Bruce,

I think you understand my question.

How could this allegedly superior level of Hapkido been kept under wraps for all this time by many so called students of Choi.

Would so many be so narrow minded to abandon this side of the Art?

It seems hardly possible that only a few people are seaching for a higher mountain to climb in this Hapkido Tradition.

It's much more logical to believe that the material presented to you was also presented to Ji, Myung, and many others who trainned with Choi.

So again what happened! It really seems strange to me?

 

[glad2bhere]

Ouch!! I have to tell you, Stuart, you sure don't make it easy to have a disspassionate discussion about this.

"..... allegedly superior level of Hapkido......"

".....be so narrow minded......"

Add on Franks' "condemned" to the list and a guy could be forgiven for thinking that the name of the MA game here in the States is "contention". I was wanting to respond to your question but understandably I expect that no matter what I say or how I say it someone is going to be looking for a reason to strike-out at someone else, yes? Anyhow--- here goes.

Warning!! Personal Opinion Follows!!

I can think of four ways things could have produced what we are looking at right now.

1.) In the late 50-s people wanted to cash in on the efforts to define a martial tradition for the Korean nation. People who wanted to lead their respective movements were impatient to wait until they had garnered the necessary high ranks, or pursued arts where high ranks simply didn't exist. Therefore various people learned various skill sets depending on how long they gtrained, when they trained and how Choi felt about them.

2.) It is possible that various personalities, in turn taught various skill levels to THEIR students while still saying that they taught the way Choi taught them. Ji and Kims' introduction of Kicking techniques is pretty well-known. Why could they have not likewise deferred to a less demanding way of teaching the techniques, as well as a less demanding way of executing those techniques?

3.) Curriculums were reshaped to make the classes more friendly to general consumption not unlike the way Ueyshiba reshaped DRAJJ to produce a kinder/gentler Aikido. In this way marginal combat effectiveness might be lost but at the gain of having a more salable product for public consumption.

4.) Lastly, there is the possibility that Choi taught only the yu sool level and that people have been tacking stuff onto the stuff taught them by Choi and authenticating the add-ons by invoking the name of the great man himself.

Now---- do I know that any or all of these things happened? No, not for sure. However, if you take a look at the way people relate to MA in the US, I think its pretty easy to see that folks can easily say one thing, while knowing another and while practicing yet a third. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[SmellyMonkey]

This may be a stupid question, but...

Can you translate "yu sool", "hapki yu sool" and "hapki sool" for those of us who haven't used those Korean terms before?

Thanks,
Jeremy

 

[Master Todd Miller]

Wollmenhauser ( 3rd dan Choi Yoong Sul ).

Master Mike's only promotion from DJN Choi was 1st dan this was after he had already been promoted to 6th dan from Dr. Park.

The hard thing for many to deal with in this disscussion is that GM Ji and many others did not learn everything from Choi. Choi did not have that many students that trained with him for a long period! Hapki Sool , Hapki Yu Sool as Bruce puts it takes many years of dedicated practice under a qualified Master. GM Ji only trained with DJN Choi for 3 years as a very young man it only stands to reason that he would not be at the Hapki Sool or Hapki yusool level as a high school student. I am sure he was and is very skilled but not in the truest for of what DJN Choi taught.

I will be holding a Hapkid/Guhapdo Freindship meeting at my dojang on Saturday November 20th From 10:00 - 3:00, There will be a $25.00 charge for all. Those that hold the rank of 4th dan & above will be allowed to share some of what they do if they would like.

Take care

www.millersmudo.com

 

[Master Todd Miller]

Can you translate "yu sool", "hapki yu sool" and "hapki sool" for those of us who haven't used those Korean terms before?

Sool = technique
Yu = Soft

Hapki = coordinate spirit & body into one roughly

Hope this helps.

www.millersmudo.com

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Jeremy:

If you end the conflict by virtue of applying skills based on mass, leverage, balance, strength and speed you are using yu sool skills.

If you end the conflict by viture of impacting or manipulating a neuro-muscular system you are using hapkiyusool.

If you end a conflict by dint of your own personality, persuasion, psychology and personal power you are practicing hapki sool. Here in the West most people forgoe practicing hapkisool because a person who seeks to reason his way out of a situation is considered something of a wussie. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[SmellyMonkey]

Dear Jeremy:

If you end the conflict by virtue of applying skills based on mass, leverage, balance, strength and speed you are using yu sool skills.

If you end the conflict by viture of impacting or manipulating a neuro-muscular system you are using hapkiyusool.

If you end a conflict by dint of your own personality, persuasion, psychology and personal power you are practicing hapki sool. Here in the West most people forgoe practicing hapkisool because a person who seeks to reason his way out of a situation is considered something of a wussie. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

I guess you are right when you said you had to see/feel the difference between "yu sool" and "hapki yu sool" to believe it.

Is "hapki yu sool" something that can be taught? It sounds...well...like something that will come naturally so long as the hapkidoist continues to grow and mature as a martial artist. How can you teach this?

 

[American HKD]

Dear Bruce & others,

My comments are not personal, just trying to dive deeply into these situations.

Moreover the comments about superior etc. is how this level of Hapkido is being spoken about either directly or with undertones meaning such.

That's Ok, everyones comming from there own expiriences which are all different.

Bruce per your explanation which is feesable, I guess this is why so many variations of HKD exist today all comming from Choi one way or another.

 

[whalen]

Wollmenhauser ( 3rd dan Choi Yoong Sul ).

Master Mike's only promotion from DJN Choi was 1st dan this was after he had already been promoted to 6th dan from Dr. Park.

The hard thing for many to deal with in this discussion is that GM Ji and many others did not learn everything from Choi. Choi did not have that many students that trained with him for a long period! Hapki Sool , Hapki Yu Sool as Bruce puts it takes many years of dedicated practice under a qualified Master. GM Ji only trained with DJN Choi for 3 years as a very young man it only stands to reason that he would not be at the Hapki Sool or Hapki yusool level as a high school student. I am sure he was and is very skilled but not in the truest for of what DJN Choi taught.

I will be holding a Hapkid/Guhapdo Freindship meeting at my dojang on Saturday November 20th From 10:00 - 3:00, There will be a $25.00 charge for all. Those that hold the rank of 4th dan & above will be allowed to share some of what they do if they would like.

Take care

www.millersmudo.com

You are wrong on this one Todd.

I met mike in 1980 and he had his third dan from Choi young sool I saw it in his home when i stayed with him his dojang was on Page Boulevard in springfield.

About two years later mike was promoted to 5th Dan By J. Park at one of the J. Park tournaments at the Civic center .He had skipped fourth

Several years later he was promoted to eighth Dan skipped both 6,7 dan i was there when he made the announcement at his Tournament during the Black Belt meeting , i was sitting next to chester Holibecki an issihn ryu master .

There was a lot of grumbling in the room about that move .

This not to disrespect the dead but Do not sell him short for years he was good enough to be your Teacher, All these promotions were before you were in Hapkido.

If it was not for him the doors would never have been opened for you.

 

[iron_ox]

Hello all,

Hi Stuart, I really think that a lot of the difference that some of us have seen in technique is a direct correlation to the amount of time and actual training that some masters did with Choi, Yong Sul. Many who claim long term relationships were there only for a few months, and this only on a week to week basis.

There are very few that stayed for more than a few months, fewer a few years and only a tiny amount that stayed for many years in Taegue.

I think that is the main difference.

Sincerely,

Kevin Sogor

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Jeremy:

"......Is "hapki yu sool" something that can be taught? It sounds...well...like something that will come naturally so long as the hapkidoist continues to grow and mature as a martial artist. How can you teach this?....."

This IS a VERY tricky point and I have to tell you in all honesty I'm not sure exactly HOW this shakes out. I know from experience that Dojunim Kim instinctively executes his techniques and they are right on the button every time. But, then again, he has been doing hapkiyusool since December, 1974 and was training in Hapkido up in Seoul before that. Figure with that kind of water under the bridge one would expect no less, right?

Now lets take your average American raised with the idea that there is always some easier way to get something. He might hang with hapkiyusool for a while. Then, with time, he might start thinking that the "marginal" improvement in his technique (if he even realizes such) might not justify the added workload and regular and severe discomfort. So he goes back to doing things the old yu sool way which is still a sound method of practice. I see this all the time with sword work. People come and learn to swing a sword and for the first few monthes they see huge gains. In time, though those gains slip from being by the foot to being by the inch. From what I witnessed and what every student conveyed to me, hapkiyusool, after years of yu sool level hapkido asks an awful lot of the student. I mean, think about it for a second. If you already had a decent art, and then decided to take a comparable art but at the expense of great discomfort how long would most people stick with it, right? Sometimes I think the people with the advantage were the newbies who came into hapkiyusool directly from the street or another different MA. They had no basis for comparison so they just dug in and took their lumps.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[Chris from CT]

How could this allegedly superior level of Hapkido been kept under wraps for all this time by many so called students of Choi.

Would so many be so narrow minded to abandon this side of the Art?

There was a topic on another website about some of the traditional styles of Hapkido that are practiced and why they are not prevalent in the USA today. So I responded...

Let me ask, is another reason because it's "too rough?" The principles that Dojunim Choi (the founder of Hapkido) taught takes time to learn, but also takes time for the body to be conditioned to train in them.

One of the things that seems "rough" is the strong wrist grabbing during practice. If the principles are applied you will be able to release the strong grip and apply your technique without the use of a strike or a fake. Constant repetition of this can wear on a person's wrists very quickly and cause redness, swelling and/or bruising. Many people here in the USA do not want to put up with this, but these people are not thinking that it is only temporary if you continue training. For the average person (that I have seen) if you continue this training for only 3 weeks, 2 times a week for approximately 20-30 minutes at a time, the bruising and tenderness goes away and does not return during training. From there you build a good foundation and can increase your conditioning.

Another thing that people think is rough is the "off balancing" that is used in traditional Hapkido. When you are actively moving a resisting person around without them having the ability to respond can be a little unnerving and let's just say uncomfortable. Here in the USA, the average person, who has to be in control, is getting man-handled and put in positions that is setting them up for a big fall. It ain't pretty and it ain't subtle, but it is efficient.

Another poster here mentions about how many Hapkido schools are too compliant during their training and that they are ineffective in a real confrontation. The quote above are just a couple of thoughts I had about why some of the traditional styles of Hapkido are not taught so readily here in the US, while also addressing the point of the ineffectiveness in what the other poster had experienced when visiting other Hapkido dojangs.


The above thought is more along the lines of Bruce's #3 reason...

Curriculums were reshaped to make the classes more friendly to general consumption...

I feel this theory is very probable in the "immediate gratification," "I'm not responsible," "litigation crazy" society we live in.

Thoughts?

Take care :asian:

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Chris:

Just a quick comment regarding the pain and abrasion, and only because I asked Dojunim Kim about this point blank.

During my training my wrists and forearms became very tender and swollen to some degree and I thoroughly expected to start losing the skin off my wrists. Dojunims' comment was that I could expect that my arms would begin to accustom to the training by just about the time I was getting ready to go back to the States. He was right on the money. Regarding the skin on my wrists though, he mentioned that if a person executes the techniques correctly this never becomes a problem. Apparently the only people who have this problem are the folks who can't seem to shake-loose of their own way of doing things. It is the struggling, not the correct execution, that does the damage. If it is of any testimony at all, I can share that on the first night I went through what is something of a rite-of-passage in which I was allowed to do any technique I wanted against a completely resistant partner. The object, as you know, is not to embarrass but to provide an object lesson from which a person can open their mind to an alternate way of doing techniques. That night was the only night that the skin on my wrists was rough and raw. Regardless of how much training I did the rest of the week the damage to the skin on my wrist was nothing like that first night. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[Chris from CT]

And therein might lay the only reservation I might have about getting together for a "friendship event". Certainly not everyone can pack things up and go to Korea for a couple of weeks to learn from a master, first hand. Still, I wonder if it would be doing the right thing to get together in such a manner and just share material back and forth. Do you remember that old story about the tea master telling his visitor that he had to empty his cup before any more tea could be poured in?

When I have shared at the past three "Hapkido Friendship Seminars," I have taught principles (not techniques) with the main focus being on how to move from your center. First explaining the benefit, then doing drills and finally showing how to apply it to specific techniques. This way a person can leave and apply it to their own techniques if they so choose to.

One of the reasons I feel a person would want to try and apply it is that I show them how it generates so much more power and then with the use of specific angles, that are weak to the human anatomy, can be used to execute techniques on a strong, resistant opponent without the use of strikes or fakes. The main focus is applying the technique without striking! It may sound to some that this is somewhat advanced, but this is basic skill that needs to be developed right from the beginning.

Empty cup or not, the "Hapkido Friendship Seminars" are an ego-free way to get together, hang out, get on the mat and meet some brothas and sistas in the Hapkido community.

But what do I know, I'm just a "martial arts junkie" Where did that number go for M.A.A.?

Take care :asian:

 

[Chris from CT]

During my training my wrists and forearms became very tender and swollen to some degree and I thoroughly expected to start losing the skin off my wrists. Dojunims' comment was that I could expect that my arms would begin to accustom to the training by just about the time I was getting ready to go back to the States. He was right on the money. Regarding the skin on my wrists though, he mentioned that if a person executes the techniques correctly this never becomes a problem.

The main thing here is that "it never becomes a problem." This is more of a mindset. It doesn't mean that the area won't get red and worn, but it is the continuation of the training, knowing that it's only tempoprary that there is not a problem. The problem arises when a person gets it in their head that there is no benefit to the conditioning and therefore stops... therein arises "the problem."

Take care :asian:

 

[Master Todd Miller]

I met mike in 1980 and he had his third dan from Choi young sool I saw it in his home when i stayed with him his dojang was on Page Boulevard in springfield.


I mean no dissrespect to Master Mikes memory but Master Mike was given a first dan by choi in 1979. DJN Choi never gave Master Mike any other rank and this is a fact!

Take care

www.millersmudo.com

 

[Master Todd Miller]

This not to disrespect the dead but Do not sell him short for years he was good enough to be your Teacher, All these promotions were before you were in Hapkido.

If it was not for him the doors would never have been opened for you.

The time that Master Mike was my teacher was good for the most part. As far as things that happened before I was in Hapkido. This does not mean I cannot find out what truly happened!

I will always be thankful that Master Mike introduced me to GM Lim. Now GM Lim is my teacher and I have had many conversations about Hapkido and the events of the past and without going into detail things are not always what they seem.

Enough said!

www.millersmudo.com

 

[Disco]

This post kind of got overlooked a while back, so we'll prop it up again.

The difficulty most people have is that the difference between the Yu Sool level and the Hapkido or Hapkiyusool level is very subtle.

Does the subtlety stem from the amount of time given to perfect techniques or would it be based upon the natural talents of the individual?