Groin and Eyes Attacks.........Cheap shots?

[loki09789]

Well, it might be effective if you can keep it in for a long time, but people an escape from a bite. In any case, who bites? Wether effective not, people usally feel uncomfortable to bite so people wouldn't bite therefore making it useless to even bring up when discussing rules fighting. In a BJJ, it is easily escaple to get out of a bite (it is bad technique and and easliy be pulled away and be put in the triangle hold). But we have never talked about bitting BJJ.

By doing BJJ I should no fishhooking? Well for all the time I've been doing BJJ, they never talk about illegal moves like that.

I bite and a fish hook is simply a hooking palm strike (as far as I know) into a guys head (standard practice, not an illegal move by any means) around straight arms. I learned that from a guy who was a High School Wrestler.

In playful 'reality' sparring where anything goes, but the intensity and power is reduced, I have bitten and believe me, they do not try and get away because it only makes it worse. Ask Tyson if biting works and the cost of pulling away from a bite.

 

[Brother John]

Second, a bite can be applied in the clinch. Again, I suggest you check with your inst.
Mike

OR...
you could check with Mike Tyson.
:lookie:
Your Brother
John

 

[MJS]

OR...
you could check with Mike Tyson.
:lookie:
Your Brother
John

LOL!! Right on Brother!!!! And maybe even check with Evander.

Mike

 

[Brother John]

I bite and a fish hook is simply a hooking palm strike (as far as I know) into a guys head (standard practice, not an illegal move by any means) around straight arms. I learned that from a guy who was a High School Wrestler.

No. Maybe that's what your wrestling friend called a "fish-hook", but that's not the common understanding. A fish-hook technique is usually any technique that uses the fingers or thumbs (multiple or singular) that 'hooks' the cheek(s) and yanks them back in order to rip the flesh of the cheeks.
Very painful!!!!!
Very damaging.
That's what we're discussing here.
Your Brother
John

 

[loki09789]

No. Maybe that's what your wrestling friend called a "fish-hook", but that's not the common understanding. A fish-hook technique is usually any technique that uses the fingers or thumbs (multiple or singular) that 'hooks' the cheek(s) and yanks them back in order to rip the flesh of the cheeks.
Very painful!!!!!
Very damaging.
That's what we're discussing here.
Your Brother
John

Okay... that sounds worse than the palm strike. OUCH! I think the point that this brings up is that martial terminology tends to be in house usage, and the description of the technique can be more useful at times. Thanks for the info on the BJJ use of the term.

 

[Cobra]

First off I would like to say, to MJS. It seams every thread I write you are trying to compete with me or something. You like saying my threads are bad, or saying I know nothing about martial arts. I'm pretty new to this site so I'm not sure, but are you like that to everybody? Who knows, I might of learned of fishooking back in the days I started MA, but maybe I don't remember. Or maybe, our sensei or coach has enough faith in us not to do llegal stuff like that. Who knows, does it really matter so much wether I know that or not? I mean damn, kill me why don't for not knowing that. Who would do something like fishooking? Like doing a hand choke, it seams not right, right off the bat.

Anyway, back to the topic. What I obviosly meant was you can improve your throat block. We have been taught to do that. In any case, people must adapt to the situation. And about the kumite. It would be cool to have a competion like that is what I meant. No rules, no crap, real fight! I just think it would of been cool to add the banning of groin and eye attaks since I think they are cheap shots. But then everybody brings in every damn rule that exsist likes spine, joint, or whatever. First off I would like to say is that with that many rules, is it a true fight. Maybe a couple rules is okay, but if you look at UFC or Pride, they have a whole library of rules. They should make UFC like it was in the 90's, I heard there was a lot less rules.

And to 7starmantis, first off what I meant was in a sport situation. Have I talked once in this whole thing that I wouldn't try to use every advantage I would in a defense situation. Heck, if I was in a street corner and some crazy f***er tried to physically assualt me, I would use the nearest weapon instead of my own body like a thrown away baseball bat or something. It would actually be dumb to just fight him, he could have a gang around him.

And the whole thing around bitting. Bitting damn hurts! It hurts more than someone trying squeeze whatever you bite. True, it is more painful than normal. But in my opionion, people can escape it! For example, if someone jumps up on someone and starts to bite their forehead, it will hurt more, maybe even more than hard punch. It may make you bleed or tear flesh, but it doesn't mean you would get out of it. Grab his neck or punch him in the gut a few times, then he will be wailing in pain more than you. Why do I believe so firmly one this? I've have been attacked by some crazy f***ers. And that is all I am going to say about that. I have never been attaked in the groin, but gottin hit there. And let me tell you, it hurts way more than a bite!

Comming down to it. It maybe would just be better if they make a fighting contest with NO RULES.

 

[MJS]

First off I would like to say, to MJS. It seams every thread I write you are trying to compete with me or something. You like saying my threads are bad, or saying I know nothing about martial arts. I'm pretty new to this site so I'm not sure, but are you like that to everybody? Who knows, I might of learned of fishooking back in the days I started MA, but maybe I don't remember. Or maybe, our sensei or coach has enough faith in us not to do llegal stuff like that. Who knows, does it really matter so much wether I know that or not? I mean damn, kill me why don't for not knowing that. Who would do something like fishooking? Like doing a hand choke, it seams not right, right off the bat.

Dude, let me explain something to you. If you refer to the post that Paul made, that is probably one of the biggest reasons you get the arguments you do from me. You come on here, make these crazy threads and statements..Dude, what do you expect??? You claim to have all this experience, but you fail to back it up with anything credible. As for competeing with you..LOL..come on man. Trust me, thats not the case, even though it may SEEM that way to you. Yes, you are new to this site. I've been here for quite a while, and there are some very skilled people here, and there are some whos post, skills, etc. that we question. As for fighting dirty...let me tell you something...in a life and death situation, fighting dirty is the best way to survive. Be it a fish hook, eye jab, groin kick, etc. if its there and presents itself, then I'd use it. Why not use it?? Do you not think that if someone was attacking you, that they themselves wouldnt try to do a dirty move? Of course they would.

Anyway, back to the topic. What I obviosly meant was you can improve your throat block. We have been taught to do that. In any case, people must adapt to the situation. And about the kumite. It would be cool to have a competion like that is what I meant. No rules, no crap, real fight! I just think it would of been cool to add the banning of groin and eye attaks since I think they are cheap shots. But then everybody brings in every damn rule that exsist likes spine, joint, or whatever. First off I would like to say is that with that many rules, is it a true fight. Maybe a couple rules is okay, but if you look at UFC or Pride, they have a whole library of rules. They should make UFC like it was in the 90's, I heard there was a lot less rules.

There will never be a legal fighting competition like you say. If that is what you're looking for, then why dont you just go to the local bar, and start a fight if you want to do some eye jabs and groin kicks. As for the throat...as it was said before, the neck can be conditioned, but there is no way that anyone can take a hit to the throat like that. Even an improperly applied choke can do some serious damage. Didnt your Inst. teach you about that??? Keep in mind, when talking about the UFC/ Pride events...its no longer NHB fighting. Its MMA. Its a sport dude, thats it! Its much closer to a real fight than you'll ever see in any martial arts school. In the 90s there were less rules, but do to the politicians, who at one time, had those events pulled from PPV, the rules were added to bring those events back.

And the whole thing around bitting. Bitting damn hurts! It hurts more than someone trying squeeze whatever you bite. True, it is more painful than normal. But in my opionion, people can escape it! For example, if someone jumps up on someone and starts to bite their forehead, it will hurt more, maybe even more than hard punch. It may make you bleed or tear flesh, but it doesn't mean you would get out of it. Grab his neck or punch him in the gut a few times, then he will be wailing in pain more than you. Why do I believe so firmly one this? I've have been attacked by some crazy f***ers. And that is all I am going to say about that. I have never been attaked in the groin, but gottin hit there. And let me tell you, it hurts way more than a bite!

If you think you can escape from a bite, good for you. I'm simply saying that its harder than you think. If its so easy to escape from a bite, take a look at the Tyson/Holyfield incident. Holyfield was too busy jumping up and down to even think about doing anything else. Hmm...must be that biting took quite a toll on him.

Comming down to it. It maybe would just be better if they make a fighting contest with NO RULES.

Dude, if thats what you want, then go out and start a fight with someone on the street. Then you'll have your no rules event.

Mike

 

[Cobra]

As for fighting dirty...let me tell you something...in a life and death situation, fighting dirty is the best way to survive. Be it a fish hook, eye jab, groin kick, etc. if its there and presents itself, then I'd use it. Why not use it?? Do you not think that if someone was attacking you, that they themselves wouldnt try to do a dirty move? Of course they would.

Dude, if thats what you want, then go out and start a fight with someone on the street. Then you'll have your no rules event.

Mike

That is exactly what I told 7starmantis if you read the whole post. Of coarse in a real street fight you would go for those areas. It would actually be better to find a wacking weopon in that situation.

And as far as competion goes. I mean a organization that supports a no rules competion.. If you go into a street, anything oes, even guns! Have you seen the movie Bloodsport? That competion they do which is no rules would be nice. I know the kumite is fiction, or so some people say, I'm sure that there are secret competions like that held. Or maybe not, who knows.

 

[Rich Parsons]

No offense man, and this next line may offend you, but it's honest...
You have got to be kidding me!

No, it can't. The muscles of the neck, most notably the sternoclydomastoid muscles, can be strengthened/thickened to a great degree... but these muscles do not cover the throat. Even still, these muscles are highly succeptible to damage! The throat being the area between these two muscles.. it is the trachea covered by some flesh...nothing more. No bone, exceedingly little muscle to speak of (you have more muscle covering the back of your pinky-finger bones than you do this area)...so WHAT are you going to condition...and how???
I worked out with a guy (back in college) named Earnest who had been a college level wrestler, got a full ride scholarship just for wrestling. He had a black belt in Judo, had wrestled since he was a child and was...at the time I met him...seeking out some TKD skills to become a NHB fighter. He was also an avid bodybuilder who had been taking anabolic steriods for about two years (through various cycles and stacks). I bring up Earnest because he had the neck of a Brahma BULL! THICK, hard...etc. But his throat was still 100% suseptible to damage! During a boxing match he was punched in the throat...the fight was stopped and earnest was rushed by ambulance to the emergency room.



This is a valid point, but one that works against your side of the argument as well. The eye are more mobile than the throat, and are a smaller target...plus something must pass into my field of vision for me to get struck in the eye(s)... but I can get struck in the throat from an obscure angle. THUS: the eyes are more easily protected than the throat. Just as a person could 'shrug' to 'improve' their throat protection... a person could shrug, dodge, bob, weave...block...to protect their eyes.
Same goes for the groin. In my style (American Kenpo Karate) we practice standing and moving in such a way as to seriously limit our opponents access to our groin. There are ways to stand, ways to move, ways to block...etc. in order to protect the gonads. NOT TO MENTION A CUP!!!


Again with the anatomy...
#1: how do you 'condition' your joints to withstand the torque of a well aplied twist/lock? The tendons the hold joints together can gain some flexibility, but NOT MUCH. If you were able to gain enough flexibility in a tendon in order to excape the damage of any one of a thousand different joint destruction techniques... you'd also have a joint that you couldn't keep in place and would slip constantly becuase the tendon wasn't tight enough to hold it there in it's appropriate ROM. Muscular resistance across a joint will only do so much too, and not enough. In all honesty there are joint manipulation techniques in which you want them to use all of their muscular strength...as it adds to their own pain and damage.
#2: how do you block a shot to your spine? A person doesn't have to be directly behind you to target and access your spine. Unless your arms swivel ALL the way around in their sockets and you can see directly behind you as well as you can to the front (not an owl are we?) then any Human is at a marked disadvantage to block a shot to the spine.
Dont let them get back there? Good idea! Doesn't always work like that. Fightings like that.
Back to the anatomy:
There are scant few muscles that cover the spine... at most the erector spinea cross it...a bit. There's no padding other than the very sensitive bone ridges built into your vertebrae...and if one of these ridges breaks (easier to do than you'd think) you are in a WORLD of hurt. WAY worse than any full on kick to the testes would ever give you!!!!!!

Now on to my favorite: The Kumite!


And Nessie would make a nice aquarium pet.
Are you actually saying that you believe in the fictional competition in "Blood Sport"...that VanDumb movie?
It was a story.
Not real, not true.
Try this one little tidbit.
In the movie, and according the Frank Dux (the real man, with lots of TALL tales) the "Kumite" is an ancient event in China, promulgated by the Black Triad (AKA: the Tongs, Chinese mafia). This competition is called "The Kumite". YET "Kumite" is a Japanese word indicating a fight, and really wasn't even used by them until the last 170 or so years.
ODD..
Ancient Chinese competition with a modern Japanese name. :uhyeah:
Doesn't work.

Listen... I'm coming off very badly, I know. Please don't be too upset with me. I just find some of your reasoning....
wanting.
I really should get more sleep.
Helps me be less pissy..

Your Brother
John

I was going to cut this post apart and reply to the parts I liked. I found that I should just keep it intact.
:asian:

 

[blackbelt4me]

i really did not read all the post`s but i will say this my master tells us out side street fighting anything goes
including eyes groin anything
"when your opponent comes,greet him at once,if he withdraws,immediately send him on his way"
:asian:

 

[Cruentus]

I'll keep this brief.

For an example of some serious "NHB" fighting, look at our Bare Knuckle Boxing Traditions. I'm Talking London Prize Ring Rules and before to Broughton rules, and before to no rules.

There was a time when people "prize fought" without rules period. All kinds of nasty stuff was allowed, and groin grabs and eye pokes weren't the only things to worry about. THey had to worry about a whole host of problems such as kicks with spiked boots, skin grabs, fish-hooks (not just hooking the mouth, but eyes and even ears could be "hooked" finger and joint manipulation, the clinch and grappling, and the list goes on.

And, do you know what happened? People died. That was initially why the Broughton rules were developed. We will never go back to the no rules days because of it. But, if we read about and learn about how these people fought, we may be able to take with us how to handle our competition skills outside the ring.

I'm not sure what the point of this thread is, or why it was started. But, hopefully I gave good input on what seems like a pretty pointless, degenerated thread.

A side note, yall might want to read up on this as well, as I think it may apply here:
http://www.themartialist.com/pecom/vtg.htm

Thank you,
PAUL

 

[Brother John]

THey had to worry about a whole host of problems such as kicks with spiked boots, skin grabs, fish-hooks (not just hooking the mouth, but eyes and even ears could be "hooked" finger and joint manipulation, the clinch and grappling, and the list goes on.
PAUL

...yeah//
I heard that the titty-twisters were hell.

Your Brother
"Ow...leggo...leggooooo....."
John

 

[MJS]

That is exactly what I told 7starmantis if you read the whole post. Of coarse in a real street fight you would go for those areas. It would actually be better to find a wacking weopon in that situation.

But didnt you say that those were cheap shots??

And as far as competion goes. I mean a organization that supports a no rules competion.. If you go into a street, anything oes, even guns! Have you seen the movie Bloodsport? That competion they do which is no rules would be nice. I know the kumite is fiction, or so some people say, I'm sure that there are secret competions like that held. Or maybe not, who knows.

Regardless of if those events are real or not, what matters is, is that I really dont think that any org. will take the chance of having someone die at these events.

Mike

 

[7starmantis]

Cobra,
I remember when I was a kid I wanted to see no rules fighting as well. Now that I've been in some san shou and full contact fighting I don't see the point of it. First off, I don't really see why anyone would train only for competition, but thats a different thread I guess. Why would you want to see someone getting their elbow or knee broken? Why would you want to step into a ring and crush someones throat? Would you want to be in a ring with a 275 pound full contact fighter trying to kill you or at least brake a few bones?

One question for you, Have you done any full contact fighting?

7sm

 

[MJS]

Cobra,
One question for you, Have you done any full contact fighting?

Interesting question 7sm! In fact, I'm beginning to question his ENTIRE martial arts background. Does he even have one????????

Mike

 

[loki09789]

Cobra,
I remember when I was a kid I wanted to see no rules fighting as well. Now that I've been in some san shou and full contact fighting I don't see the point of it. First off, I don't really see why anyone would train only for competition, but thats a different thread I guess. Why would you want to see someone getting their elbow or knee broken? Why would you want to step into a ring and crush someones throat? Would you want to be in a ring with a 275 pound full contact fighter trying to kill you or at least brake a few bones?

One question for you, Have you done any full contact fighting?

7sm

Along those lines, why would you want to even try and ENSURE such an event as a promoter? What audience would you try and promote the event too? Do you have the money set aside to pay for civil lawyers to defend your 'right' to show this stuff when the protesters hit?

Come on, there are people banning boxing even today - and, as Paul pointed out, it is much 'nicer' than it has been in the past (maybe not less corrupt...).

 

[OULobo]

So I'm thinking a few things to throw out here.

First the biting thing, what Cobra is missing is that the damage from a bite is not from pain or clamping, it's from bulk tissue loss, tendon/soft tissue damage, blood loss and most of all infection. The jaw is an unbelievabley strong joint, but the strength isn't what makes it a good weapon. If a person is biting it is either an attack of opportunity, a distraction, a vital area attack, or a disabling attack. It's hard to hold a knife or clench a fist if your forarm tendons are severed. Anyone who bites boney or thin muscled areas is not attacking efficiently.

On to the other targets mentioned. I always hear from police that the areas of attack if in desperate situations are eyes, throat, plexis, groin and knees.

I don't usually attack the plexis, or knees because I have come across too many hardasses and muscleheads that are pretty damn resistant to these attacks.

If I am serious, I love attacking eyes. People are generally heavily dependant on sight so eyes are great targets. They also show suprisingly good ability to recover from damage. Eyes aren't the easiest target to hit. The are often recessed into the orbital and can be insulated by layers of muscle and skin when tightly shut.

I also love the throat. It's a classic target for multiple reasons; the large vein and artery are accessable for chokes, slashes and disruption from shock; the trachea is available for collapse form strike and constrictions in a hold; and there are numerous pressure/pain points and nerve targets. The only negative is coverage from shoulder hunching, chin dropping, large traps, ect.

Finally the groin. It's a valid target and I have seen whole systems designed around attacking the groin. The only problems I have are that it is a pain centered target and it can be pretty easily defended. I was talking to an officer once that told a story about a guy who was choking his brother in a domestic violence call. The guy doing the choking was livid. The officers restrained him and took him to the jail for booking. About the 20 mins. after they arrived, the attacker who was previously upright, heathy, calm and talkative, collapsed on the ground vomiting, moaning and holding his stomache. The officers took him to the hospital down the road and after about 30min. the M.D. returned and began questioning the officers about their restraining tactics. The officers offered that they only applied an arm bar and then cuffs. The M.D. then told them that the attacker had two fully ascended testicles and he may loose them both from tissue damage. The officers questioned the victim and found out that the whole time he was being choked he was hammering his knee into the attacker's groin. His estimate was that he struck about 20 times. In his rage the attacker felt none of these strikes and continued his offense. So just how effective is a groin strike?

 

[c2kenpo]

First I agree with many of the posters on this one. MJS, Paul, 7Star.

Cobra, your threads are starting to become "matchsticks" and some of your statements do give people reason to question your thinking and training background.

I have been in 3 FIGHTS in my life, and several competions, along with sports etc. Each fight ended in a matter of seconds due to strikes to the "SOFT" target areas or a simple matter of avoidance.
In sport competitions I have watched many fighters go down even with protective gear on due to a well placed hit or accidental blow to a soft target. I to have gone down to an accidental hit to the throat and I was checking at the time.
For sporting events take a look at all different sports and look at the injuires and how the people reacted to some of those. (The Tyson / Hollyfield match is a great example!)

I have trained in MA for over 7 years now. Have been an avid watcher of boxing and sporting events and am also certified in First Aid and CPR and have been a lifeguard and college sports player.
My belief is that soft targets no matter what claim that there is CANNOT be trained or toughend (Barring extreme surgery or / Drugs that block the transmission of neurons to the brain that regulate pain).

Pinching, biting all of those "small" things ARE PROVEN METHODS of self-defense and are taught worldwide and most professional law enforment and secuity personnell will agree with me on that.
I help teach a women's self-defense class that focuses on pinching, I would rather be and Ukei or Body for ANY Martial Artist / Boxer for 24 hrs straight then do a 2 hr seminar. WHY? BECAUSE IT WORKS. The human nervous system is the same for everyone they will react no matter what barring my previous stement before drugs and surgery.

For a true test of a fighters skill I don't measure it by how tough they are or if they can break so many bones or can survive a cage match.

I measure it by how many times they have not gotten into a fight. The mind is more powerful then any fist.

Please choose your threads more carefuly and be prepared to give a reason for your statements so that they just don't look like a "firestarter"

JMHO.

Forgive me if I have stepped on any toes here.

Dave

 

[loki09789]

So I'm thinking a few things to throw out here.

First the biting thing, what Cobra is missing is that the damage from a bite is not from pain or clamping, it's from bulk tissue loss, tendon/soft tissue damage, blood loss and most of all infection. The jaw is an unbelievabley strong joint, but the strength isn't what makes it a good weapon. If a person is biting it is either an attack of opportunity, a distraction, a vital area attack, or a disabling attack. It's hard to hold a knife or clench a fist if your forarm tendons are severed. Anyone who bites boney or thin muscled areas is not attacking efficiently.

On to the other targets mentioned. I always hear from police that the areas of attack if in desperate situations are eyes, throat, plexis, groin and knees.

I don't usually attack the plexis, or knees because I have come across too many hardasses and muscleheads that are pretty damn resistant to these attacks.

If I am serious, I love attacking eyes. People are generally heavily dependant on sight so eyes are great targets. They also show suprisingly good ability to recover from damage. Eyes aren't the easiest target to hit. The are often recessed into the orbital and can be insulated by layers of muscle and skin when tightly shut.

I also love the throat. It's a classic target for multiple reasons; the large vein and artery are accessable for chokes, slashes and disruption from shock; the trachea is available for collapse form strike and constrictions in a hold; and there are numerous pressure/pain points and nerve targets. The only negative is coverage from shoulder hunching, chin dropping, large traps, ect.

Finally the groin. It's a valid target and I have seen whole systems designed around attacking the groin. The only problems I have are that it is a pain centered target and it can be pretty easily defended. I was talking to an officer once that told a story about a guy who was choking his brother in a domestic violence call. The guy doing the choking was livid. The officers restrained him and took him to the jail for booking. About the 20 mins. after they arrived, the attacker who was previously upright, heathy, calm and talkative, collapsed on the ground vomiting, moaning and holding his stomache. The officers took him to the hospital down the road and after about 30min. the M.D. returned and began questioning the officers about their restraining tactics. The officers offered that they only applied an arm bar and then cuffs. The M.D. then told them that the attacker had two fully ascended testicles and he may loose them both from tissue damage. The officers questioned the victim and found out that the whole time he was being choked he was hammering his knee into the attacker's groin. His estimate was that he struck about 20 times. In his rage the attacker felt none of these strikes and continued his offense. So just how effective is a groin strike?

Don't discount the psychological impact of how these areas are usually consciously/subconciously reserved for intimate access only. The psychological invasion of that personal space, especially violently ('my throat, I can't breath - self fulfilled prophecy will create a muscle contraction that doesn't need to happen). Look at the defensive posture of most animals, they cover and screen the very targets you are identifying. As humans, we do this as well, BUT we also are conscious of it and can/do psych ourselves up and out with what will happen if we get nailed in these areas.

Similar to the guy who takes a grazing shot, but is convinced that gunshot always kill and wills himself into shock and death because of that self fulfilled prophecy.

 

[c2kenpo]

Don't discount the psychological impact of how these areas are usually consciously/subconciously reserved for intimate access only. The psychological invasion of that personal space, especially violently ('my throat, I can't breath - self fulfilled prophecy will create a muscle contraction that doesn't need to happen). Look at the defensive posture of most animals, they cover and screen the very targets you are identifying. As humans, we do this as well, BUT we also are conscious of it and can/do psych ourselves up and out with what will happen if we get nailed in these areas.

Similar to the guy who takes a grazing shot, but is convinced that gunshot always kill and wills himself into shock and death because of that self fulfilled prophecy.

DONE!! The best example is the chair when you were in school and rocking back and forth. How your body would tense up if you felt like you would fall. All called the nervous condition that we put up our hands to protect our eyes, we turn our hips and try to cover our groin, and we are terrified of suffocation, all creation a mental / physical reaction.

Sir i couldn't have siad it better.

Dave