Groin and Eyes Attacks.........Cheap shots?

[Cobra]

The groin and eye are our most sensitve areas. They can't be conditioned an it is very difficult to block such attacks. People call them cheap shots, but are they cheap shots or are all attacks valid?

I think they are cheap shots and should only be accessed if they is no other way. If I was to make a sport on fighting (like UFC or Pride) the only fouls I would make is attacking the groin or eyes is illegal. Other than that, all other stuff is legal.

 

[MJS]

The groin and eye are our most sensitve areas. They can't be conditioned an it is very difficult to block such attacks. People call them cheap shots, but are they cheap shots or are all attacks valid?

Well, let me start off by saying that I'm impressed by the topic of your thread. I'm sure it'll generate some interesting replies. I'm also impressed that it isnt another animal thread!! Ok..back to the question. IMO, they are not cheap shots. Like anything you do in response to an attack, IMO, you should use as much force as whats being used against you. If the attack warrants an eye jab then do it. If it doesnt, then dont.

I think they are cheap shots and should only be accessed if they is no other way. If I was to make a sport on fighting (like UFC or Pride) the only fouls I would make is attacking the groin or eyes is illegal. Other than that, all other stuff is legal.

Well, if you did start an event like Pride or UFC, I dont think you'd get much positive feedback. What do I mean by that? I honestly dont think that if you allowed things like biting and fish hooking, that any state wold allow that! Another question for you. You wouldnt allow a hit to the groin, but you'd allow biting???? A bite is much worse than a kick to the groin.

Mike

 

[Cobra]

Well, let me start off by saying that I'm impressed by the topic of your thread. I'm sure it'll generate some interesting replies. I'm also impressed that it isnt another animal thread!! Ok..back to the question. IMO, they are not cheap shots. Like anything you do in response to an attack, IMO, you should use as much force as whats being used against you. If the attack warrants an eye jab then do it. If it doesnt, then dont.



Well, if you did start an event like Pride or UFC, I dont think you'd get much positive feedback. What do I mean by that? I honestly dont think that if you allowed things like biting and fish hooking, that any state wold allow that! Another question for you. You wouldnt allow a hit to the groin, but you'd allow biting???? A bite is much worse than a kick to the groin.

Mike

Like I said about the animal threads, I have only three of them compared to the 10 of other topics I have started thread about.

And about bitting the groin, all attacks to the groin or eyes would be illegal including punching, kicking, sqeezing, scratching, or bitting the groin ore eye.

As far as bitting, I think it should be legal cause i would want it to be a battle between man and man meaing pure combat meaning everything goes (except for cheap shots like eye or groin attacks). Some martial arts teachbitting techniques and I wouldn't want to disadvantage those people. Bitting is anyway ineffective when up against a real martial artist. What is fish hooking?

 

[MJS]

Like I said about the animal threads, I have only three of them compared to the 10 of other topics I have started thread about.

Ok.

And about bitting the groin, all attacks to the groin or eyes would be illegal including punching, kicking, sqeezing, scratching, or bitting the groin ore eye.

Ok.

As far as bitting, I think it should be legal cause i would want it to be a battle between man and man meaing pure combat meaning everything goes (except for cheap shots like eye or groin attacks). Some martial arts teachbitting techniques and I wouldn't want to disadvantage those people. Bitting is anyway ineffective when up against a real martial artist. What is fish hooking?

Ok..let me get this straight because honestly it sounds pretty crazy. You're saying that a groin shot is cheap but biting is not?? And why is that? And FYI, how do you figure that biting is ineffective??? You say in your profile that you do BJJ. If thats the case, then you should know that in the clinch, a bite can very easily be applied. It can be applied in many grappling situations. If you dont know which ones, then I suggest you check with your instructor. What is fish hooking??? Taking your thumb and putting it in the corner of your opps. mouth and executing a pulling or tearing motion. Again, if you are supposedly doing BJJ, you should really know that.

Mike

 

[theletch1]

Eye and groin shots are by no means cheap shots in a SD situation but I'd think they are a bit much for "friendly" competition. As for biting being ineffective...my daughter has tapped me out several times with a good bite while we were fighting and she's only 12 years old.

 

[Cobra]

Ok.



Ok.



Ok..let me get this straight because honestly it sounds pretty crazy. You're saying that a groin shot is cheap but biting is not?? And why is that? And FYI, how do you figure that biting is ineffective??? You say in your profile that you do BJJ. If thats the case, then you should know that in the clinch, a bite can very easily be applied. It can be applied in many grappling situations. If you dont know which ones, then I suggest you check with your instructor. What is fish hooking??? Taking your thumb and putting it in the corner of your opps. mouth and executing a pulling or tearing motion. Again, if you are supposedly doing BJJ, you should really know that.

Mike

Well, it might be effective if you can keep it in for a long time, but people an escape from a bite. In any case, who bites? Wether effective not, people usally feel uncomfortable to bite so people wouldn't bite therefore making it useless to even bring up when discussing rules fighting. In a BJJ, it is easily escaple to get out of a bite (it is bad technique and and easliy be pulled away and be put in the triangle hold). But we have never talked about bitting BJJ.

By doing BJJ I should no fishhooking? Well for all the time I've been doing BJJ, they never talk about illegal moves like that.

 

[Cobra]

As for biting being ineffective...my daughter has tapped me out several times with a good bite while we were fighting and she's only 12 years old.

But if you know martial arts, heck even if you know martial arts, you should be able to escape a bite especially one done by a 12 year old child. No offense in anyway, but it would seam you might have a very weak pain threshold. Are you sure you didn't just let her win?

 

[satans.barber]

The groin and eye are our most sensitve areas. They can't be conditioned an it is very difficult to block such attacks. People call them cheap shots, but are they cheap shots or are all attacks valid?

I think they are cheap shots and should only be accessed if they is no other way. If I was to make a sport on fighting (like UFC or Pride) the only fouls I would make is attacking the groin or eyes is illegal. Other than that, all other stuff is legal.

Depends what you're training for...if you're on about competition then I'm sure bouts would last longer, be safer and more fun if these targets were illegal (you mention the UFC et al.).

If you're talking about training for self defence (this is the self defence forum after all) then you must consider ALL targets legal, and train to both attack them and defend your own.

At our club, we kick the groin /as often as possible/, to get students used to covering it up and defending it well. Any man knows that if you take a kick in the 'nads in a fight you're finished unless you're on drugs or some kinda psycho (or, indeed, a eunuch ), and if course if you take an attack to the eyes you're going to be in as bad a situation.

Anyone who ignores these areas on the grounds of them being not very gentlemanly targets are deluding themlseves, and certainly in kenpo they should be focused on rather than ignored.

From an attack rather than a defence poit of view, these are also invaluable targets to teach women to strike when doing potential rape scenarios and things as well. Grim, but sadly necessary.

Ian.

 

[Brother John]

The groin and eye are our most sensitve areas. They can't be conditioned an it is very difficult to block such attacks. People call them cheap shots, but are they cheap shots or are all attacks valid?

I think they are cheap shots and should only be accessed if they is no other way. If I was to make a sport on fighting (like UFC or Pride) the only fouls I would make is attacking the groin or eyes is illegal. Other than that, all other stuff is legal.

These two areas are very sensitive, true.
#1: in the context of life or death combat...
NOTHING is "Cheap" in real combat. Survival is the word, and doing whatever it takes to persevere is the key. IF I need to, I'll grab hair, gouge eyes, crush throats, snap necks, break joints...etc. I'm not an "animal", but I've got a wife and two beautiful kids that are counting on me to either protect them and or make it home alive. As long as I do that, all else is appropriate.

#2: in the context of combative sport...
Making ONLY these two shots 'illegal' wouldn't work. What about the throat? What about the spine? The joints? No company would sponser or insure your 'event' with only these two areas prohibited.

Your Brother
John

 

[Cobra]

These two areas are very sensitive, true.
#2: in the context of combative sport...
Making ONLY these two shots 'illegal' wouldn't work. What about the throat? What about the spine? The joints? No company would sponser or insure your 'event' with only these two areas prohibited.

Your Brother
John

The spine and joints can be conditioned or blocked easier. And believe it or not, the throat can be conditioned or people could improve their throat protection (like shruggin the neck).

Another similar sport-like competion is the kumite which has no rules. I rather count on that as a true fighter chooser but if there is one thing that will make that most perfect determinar would be to attack the groin or eyes. In my opionion, those two attack should be the only thing banned in competion.

 

[MA-Caver]

I've never gone into any type of formal/informal competition so I canna speak about the "fairness" of a groin/eye attack.
But in the world outside the ring and dojos ... my oldest brother taught me this before I was into MA ... "...there's no such thing as a fair fight." I took that to heart and it's gotten me out of many a jam. If a person has me down (ground fighting) and is going to whomp the beejeezus out of me you bet your **** I'm gonna do what I can to get them up and OFF of me. If anything is within range of my teeth then you betcha. If I see an opportunity to gouge out their eyes you betcha. If I can connect knee, elbow, fist, to (their) groin you betcha! (the only thing I probably WON'T DO is bite the groin... :erg: )I will utilize what MA training I have but I'll also utilize the street fighting methods I've learned as well.
I realize that they may be construde as dirty fighting or whatever ... but "out-there" there are some attackers who - just- don't-care! They'll use whatever means at their disposal to come out ahead; a broken bottle, two-by-four, whatever! I see nothing wrong with utilizing the same tactics. A stay at the hospitial is just too dang expensive to let ethics and formalities get in the way of walking away from an altercation.

 

[Touch Of Death]

I think both the eyes and groin are effective targets, however, how many of us are ready to pull someones eye out and live with the fact that we blinded someone? You really have got to wonder what exactly your opponent did to deserve such a fate. Once you feel eye jiz all over your hand, are you going to jerk your hand away or continue "defending" your self?.
By all means kick the guy in the groin, its not your fault he forgot to wear a cup :uhyeah:
Sean :asian:

 

[Brother John]

The spine and joints can be conditioned or blocked easier. And believe it or not, the throat can be conditioned or people could improve their throat protection (like shruggin the neck).

Another similar sport-like competion is the kumite which has no rules. I rather count on that as a true fighter chooser but if there is one thing that will make that most perfect determinar would be to attack the groin or eyes. In my opionion, those two attack should be the only thing banned in competion.

No offense man, and this next line may offend you, but it's honest...
You have got to be kidding me!

the throat can be conditioned

No, it can't. The muscles of the neck, most notably the sternoclydomastoid muscles, can be strengthened/thickened to a great degree... but these muscles do not cover the throat. Even still, these muscles are highly succeptible to damage! The throat being the area between these two muscles.. it is the trachea covered by some flesh...nothing more. No bone, exceedingly little muscle to speak of (you have more muscle covering the back of your pinky-finger bones than you do this area)...so WHAT are you going to condition...and how???
I worked out with a guy (back in college) named Earnest who had been a college level wrestler, got a full ride scholarship just for wrestling. He had a black belt in Judo, had wrestled since he was a child and was...at the time I met him...seeking out some TKD skills to become a NHB fighter. He was also an avid bodybuilder who had been taking anabolic steriods for about two years (through various cycles and stacks). I bring up Earnest because he had the neck of a Brahma BULL! THICK, hard...etc. But his throat was still 100% suseptible to damage! During a boxing match he was punched in the throat...the fight was stopped and earnest was rushed by ambulance to the emergency room.

or people could improve their throat protection (like shruggin the neck).

This is a valid point, but one that works against your side of the argument as well. The eye are more mobile than the throat, and are a smaller target...plus something must pass into my field of vision for me to get struck in the eye(s)... but I can get struck in the throat from an obscure angle. THUS: the eyes are more easily protected than the throat. Just as a person could 'shrug' to 'improve' their throat protection... a person could shrug, dodge, bob, weave...block...to protect their eyes.
Same goes for the groin. In my style (American Kenpo Karate) we practice standing and moving in such a way as to seriously limit our opponents access to our groin. There are ways to stand, ways to move, ways to block...etc. in order to protect the gonads. NOT TO MENTION A CUP!!!

The spine and joints can be conditioned or blocked easier

Again with the anatomy...
#1: how do you 'condition' your joints to withstand the torque of a well aplied twist/lock? The tendons the hold joints together can gain some flexibility, but NOT MUCH. If you were able to gain enough flexibility in a tendon in order to excape the damage of any one of a thousand different joint destruction techniques... you'd also have a joint that you couldn't keep in place and would slip constantly becuase the tendon wasn't tight enough to hold it there in it's appropriate ROM. Muscular resistance across a joint will only do so much too, and not enough. In all honesty there are joint manipulation techniques in which you want them to use all of their muscular strength...as it adds to their own pain and damage.
#2: how do you block a shot to your spine? A person doesn't have to be directly behind you to target and access your spine. Unless your arms swivel ALL the way around in their sockets and you can see directly behind you as well as you can to the front (not an owl are we?) then any Human is at a marked disadvantage to block a shot to the spine.
Dont let them get back there? Good idea! Doesn't always work like that. Fightings like that.
Back to the anatomy:
There are scant few muscles that cover the spine... at most the erector spinea cross it...a bit. There's no padding other than the very sensitive bone ridges built into your vertebrae...and if one of these ridges breaks (easier to do than you'd think) you are in a WORLD of hurt. WAY worse than any full on kick to the testes would ever give you!!!!!!

Now on to my favorite: The Kumite!

Another similar sport-like competion is the kumite which has no rules. I rather count on that as a true fighter chooser

And Nessie would make a nice aquarium pet.
Are you actually saying that you believe in the fictional competition in "Blood Sport"...that VanDumb movie?
It was a story.
Not real, not true.
Try this one little tidbit.
In the movie, and according the Frank Dux (the real man, with lots of TALL tales) the "Kumite" is an ancient event in China, promulgated by the Black Triad (AKA: the Tongs, Chinese mafia). This competition is called "The Kumite". YET "Kumite" is a Japanese word indicating a fight, and really wasn't even used by them until the last 170 or so years.
ODD..
Ancient Chinese competition with a modern Japanese name. :uhyeah:
Doesn't work.

Listen... I'm coming off very badly, I know. Please don't be too upset with me. I just find some of your reasoning....
wanting.
I really should get more sleep.
Helps me be less pissy..

Your Brother
John

 

[8253]

every body part is open to attack during a physical altercation

 

[Tony]

I don't think you can afford to be nice when your life is in danger! I would attack the groin, eyes, throat and any other area, and even bite my way out!

 

[7starmantis]

I'm not completely convinced that Cobra's posts are legit, they seem to full of faulty reasoning and lean towards trollish behavior, but I'll assume he is completely serious.

How is it that the groin is a hard target to defend? There are a myriad of things you can do to protect your groin. I see that you train simply for sport so that explains your reasoning, but in a real self defense situation your being stupid if you try and keep yourself from attacking some "cheap" target. Cheap is being attacked by a mugger with a knife coming home from the grocery store, in which case I'm free to use any technique I find effective. There is "iron crotch" dedicated to conditioning the groin. I'm not atesting to its validity, but you said you couldn't condition it....there are those who do. I can't reply to the starting a sport event as I do not train for anything except pure self defense, but it seems Cobra is a little off in his reasoning. If you allow certain technique to be removed from your fighting than you put yourself at a disadvantage, this is stupid to do if truly defending your life.

7sm

 

[MJS]

Well, it might be effective if you can keep it in for a long time, but people an escape from a bite. In any case, who bites? Wether effective not, people usally feel uncomfortable to bite so people wouldn't bite therefore making it useless to even bring up when discussing rules fighting. In a BJJ, it is easily escaple to get out of a bite (it is bad technique and and easliy be pulled away and be put in the triangle hold). But we have never talked about bitting BJJ.

Easy to get out of?? LOL, dude, if you take a look at Paul Vunak, he teaches an art called Kino Mutai. There is an entire art to biting, and its much more complex that you would think. My FMA teacher has gone over this with me on a few occasions. As for the triangle....first, you need to be in the right position for that choke. Second, a bite can be applied in the clinch. Again, I suggest you check with your inst.

By doing BJJ I should no fishhooking? Well for all the time I've been doing BJJ, they never talk about illegal moves like that.

Well, seeing as how youve done BJJ and wrestling you should KNOW about that. So you're saying that your inst. does not talk about what moves are illegal?? Wow. If you've done any competing, I'm sure that they have a list of do's and dont's.

Mike

 

[MJS]

But if you know martial arts, heck even if you know martial arts, you should be able to escape a bite especially one done by a 12 year old child. No offense in anyway, but it would seam you might have a very weak pain threshold. Are you sure you didn't just let her win?

Dude, its very apparent that you SEEM to not have a clue about biting. Seeing as how you're so into animals, why is it then, so hard to pull away from a dog biting you?

Mike

 

[MJS]

The spine and joints can be conditioned or blocked easier. And believe it or not, the throat can be conditioned or people could improve their throat protection (like shruggin the neck).

Yeah, ok. And I have a bridge that I can sell you real cheap too!! LOL! The throat can be conditioned?? Ok.

Another similar sport-like competion is the kumite which has no rules. I rather count on that as a true fighter chooser but if there is one thing that will make that most perfect determinar would be to attack the groin or eyes. In my opionion, those two attack should be the only thing banned in competion.

Ok.

 

[MJS]

I'm not completely convinced that Cobra's posts are legit, they seem to full of faulty reasoning and lean towards trollish behavior, but I'll assume he is completely serious.

I'm glad that I'm not the only one that thinks there is a troll lurking here!! For someone who claims to have all of this fighting knowledge, he cetainly does not show it.

How is it that the groin is a hard target to defend? There are a myriad of things you can do to protect your groin. I see that you train simply for sport so that explains your reasoning, but in a real self defense situation your being stupid if you try and keep yourself from attacking some "cheap" target. Cheap is being attacked by a mugger with a knife coming home from the grocery store, in which case I'm free to use any technique I find effective. There is "iron crotch" dedicated to conditioning the groin. I'm not atesting to its validity, but you said you couldn't condition it....there are those who do. I can't reply to the starting a sport event as I do not train for anything except pure self defense, but it seems Cobra is a little off in his reasoning. If you allow certain technique to be removed from your fighting than you put yourself at a disadvantage, this is stupid to do if truly defending your life.

7sm---I agree 100% with the above.

Mike