Grappling only vs. knife...

[Cruentus]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=izDQwDT_ERg&feature=related

Interesting illustration on how grappling by itself (without a clear strategy to control or diminish the use of the blade), as with any unarmed defense against a knife, is dangerous.

 

[thardey]

Good stuff

It reminds me of this story

Lie #10 Grappling with a knife
I was in Germany with a group of martial artists teaching "street knife work." While demonstrating an empty-handed with one of them, he tackled me and took me to the ground (This is no big deal as when I do demo's I don't allow "courtesy attacks." I insist people attack me like they would were it a real fight -- this occasionally means that I get slugged or taken down. This was one of those times). Anyway, when we hit the floor I realized that there was no way I could contest this guys strength, he was a bull, full of muscle and grappling skill. The thing was I had landed next to a practice knife that I calmly picked up and dragged it across his throat.

We stood up and his eyes were the size of saucers because he realized what the significance of what had just happened. A knife had come out of nowhere and had this been real, he would have been dead. The amazing thing was is there were only a few other people there who did too. On of the bigger proponents of grappling stood there and said, "He tackled you." To which I replied, "Yes, and I slit his throat" "But, he tackled you."

In their minds there was no difference in the levels of damage. The fact that I had been taken down counted the same as a knife across the throat. Personally, I'll take getting slammed to the ground any day over getting my throat slit.

The myth of grappling is that it works everywhere. The fact that it proved so successful in the UFC ring has blinded many people to the fact that there are critical differences between fighting barehanded and fighting with weapons. While empty-hand fighting might easily turn into an endurance marathon, where size, strength, physical shape and ability to endure punishment significantly influence the outcome of an altercation, that is not applicable to weapons work. In that arena, every man bleeds the same.

Oh yeah, remember how I said bio-mechanical cutting did have validity to it about the damage a knife can cause? What makes you think you can keep on fighting with that kind of damage being done to you? All a guy has to do is cut you a few times to seriously reduce your ability to move and then wait while you bleed out. Now the really bad news, being pumped up on adrenalin is going to make that happen faster, the higher your heart rate, the faster you bleed out and lose strength. All he has to do is out wait for your strength to fail before finishing the job.

Do not attempt to "grapple" with a knifer. Once on the ground, you are not guaranteed to be able to control his knife arm well enough to prevent him from carving you up. If it were a barehanded fight, then you can often prevent him from being able to generate enough power to effectively strike you, but a knife doesn't need power, it just needs to touch you. And if you are attempting to control his arm while on the ground, he will wiggle free and repeatedly cut you until you can no longer continue to resist.

Now for the fun news, I know of a small knife being manufactured that is called the "clinch pick." A small concealable -- and easily accessible -- knife, that can be rammed into a grappler's guts and chest three or four times before the grappler knows it is there. Where it is carried makes it nearly impossible for the grappler to prevent its deployment. When you realize he has it, it is too late.

 

[Doc_Jude]

Marc is The Man. I love that story.

Main problem is, you don't know if they're armed or not. That trainer could have easily been an ink pen or a broken bottle... standing, with footwork, you might have a chance, if you see it coming. Assuming they're armed helps a lot to relieve the action/reaction gap, allowing you to use distancing & angling so you can respond with action.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Grappling with tools and particularly knives is essential. Not only knowing how to make everything work on the ground when you are doing it but how and when and where do you deploy it.

Just as important in the reverse is understanding how to tie up the limbs so that an opponent with a knife is limited.

 

[Doc_Jude]

Grappling with tools and particularly knives is essential. Not only knowing how to make everything work on the ground when you are doing it but how and when and where do you deploy it.

Just as important in the reverse is understanding how to tie up the limbs so that an opponent with a knife is limited.

When I started doing Silat (ironically, I started reading Marc MacYoung around the same time), I definitely became more weapon conscious. My new MO: I don't "go to the ground" unless I'm taken there, & I'm back up as soon as possible. Just me...

That & I started working my sprawl and anti-takedown tactics MUCH MORE.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Grappling with tools and particularly knives is essential. Not only knowing how to make everything work on the ground when you are doing it but how and when and where do you deploy it.

Just as important in the reverse is understanding how to tie up the limbs so that an opponent with a knife is limited.

As in anything, practicing the deployment of a technique or chosen weapon in situations is important.

I have rolled with "C" and we also tried accessing weapons on our body or on the opponents body.

It works when you both just hide the weapon and sometimes one has one and the other does not. So if they go looking for yours it might not be there.

 

[arnisador]

Rich Parsons makes good points, but the basic fact remains--grappling against a knife is very much different from grappling unarmed.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Rich Parsons makes good points, but the basic fact remains--grappling against a knife is very much different from grappling unarmed.

Could the phrase Infinitely Different be applied here?

 

[Andrew Green]

One thing that bothers me about this, and other demonstrations like it, is that it needlessly dummies down the "attacker". The unarmed guy basically walked into the first stab and completely ignored a visibile knife.

Now, barring a massive, and I do mean massive gap in skill level of the two, he could make a serious attempt to fight taking the knife into consideration and have the same result 95+% of the time.

By getting the guy to dive in blind I think it seriously weakens the point they where trying to make.

 

[tellner]

Empty hand versus the knife plain sucks pus out of stillborn orangutans no matter how you go about it.

And you're welcome for that graphic visual image

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Rich Parsons makes good points, but the basic fact remains--grappling against a knife is very much different from grappling unarmed.

Could the phrase Infinitely Different be applied here?

It definately is different and yet similar. That is if you are very well trained in grappling, BJJ, Wrestling, etc. and locks in general. (something that can be found in Silat, Arnis, Budo Taijutsu, etc. You will have an advantage in body movement provided you train with a real world mind set that yes does include having a knife or other tool in the mix now and then. I know with my wrestling and bjj background that I have for years gone through and trained grappling with knives, etc. and accessing them and deploying them while grappling. (I specialize in a few distinct flavors) This is a skill set all by itself and one that complements well with already existing ground skill sets. I find BJJ body movement excellent for this even if 99.9% of Brazilian Jiujitsu practitioiner's do not practice this. (though most the ones I have flipped the switch with picked up pretty quick and had correct body movement to go along with it) My bjj skills have always aided in this department.

One thing that bothers me about this, and other demonstrations like it, is that it needlessly dummies down the "attacker". The unarmed guy basically walked into the first stab and completely ignored a visibile knife.

Now, barring a massive, and I do mean massive gap in skill level of the two, he could make a serious attempt to fight taking the knife into consideration and have the same result 95+% of the time.

By getting the guy to dive in blind I think it seriously weakens the point they where trying to make.

Yes it pretty much is evident that the idea there was to make the grappler look bad in this video. (and in the real world anyone not addressing the knife would be in really bad shape quick) I can simply say that because he sees the knife and makes no effort to tie it up, which I believe most people would. (if they know what is good for them or run like crazy)

Still having said all the above grappling with a knife is seriously bad mojo. You do not want to be there if you can help it.

 

[MJS]

Marc has some great stuff on his site and he makes some damn good points. In the event that you do find yourself in a grapple with someone with a weapon, I do feel that it is very important to know some solid defense. IMO, it opens up a new world. This is important, especially for those that are LEOs.

While its obviously good to have skill with a weapon, a blade can be put in the hands of an untrained person and they can still inflict serious damage. If you train right with the blade, it can be deployed easily. Many folders have those clips that you can attach right into your pocket. Pull that out, while someone is working for a submission or control...well, the rest should be obvious.

 

[arnisador]

One thing that bothers me about this, and other demonstrations like it, is that it needlessly dummies down the "attacker". The unarmed guy basically walked into the first stab and completely ignored a visibile knife.

This is a fair point. Where I take BJJ we do practice techniques to grab a hand and control it against the opponent's body (e.g., a rear bear hug where both of my hands control one of his, pinned hard to his body as I use my head/chest to buckle him forward). But the ability to switch the knife between one's hands makes a lot of that hard to do, and the video does show that as the grappler goes for a figure-4 armlock (it appears). Hence, I agree with you up to a point...the entry was unbelievable, and a good entry by the grappler could really change things; but once the grappling has started, I think the video is reasonably representative.

 

[Langenschwert]

Excellent video.

As a weapons practicioner myself, I find that many MAists underestimate the destructive capabilities of hand weapons. Note in the video the most basic of counters to knife control technqiues: shifting the knife to the other hand. Also note the efficacy of such a simple strategy. In Kunst des Fechtens, it's one of the oldest tricks in the book (literally!). In the Codex Wallerstein, it's shown as a counter to a scissors lock. Too bad I can't find the image online.

Best regards,

-Mark

 

[thardey]

When people find out I practice knife defense stuff, they often want to show their stuff. Usually, about halfway through their lock, I casually reach up and grab the practice knife with my free hand and drag it across their throat.

It's amazing how many knife defenses don't take that into account.

 

[Andrew Green]

It's amazing how many knife defenses don't take that into account.

I think it's a pretty simple explanation, there is no reliable way to get a knife away from a person that wants to use it without a weapon.

Since a lot of people would rather believe that there is, and some instructors don't like to admit there isn't, "little things" like that get overlooked so that the fantasy can be made real in the dojo

 

[Cruentus]

I think it's a pretty simple explanation, there is no reliable way to get a knife away from a person that wants to use it without a weapon.

Since a lot of people would rather believe that there is, and some instructors don't like to admit there isn't, "little things" like that get overlooked so that the fantasy can be made real in the dojo

True. However, because the deck is stacked in someone else's favor when a weapon presents itself, that doesn't mean that we figure it to be a losing battle anyway, and never train material against such a situation.

In self-defense, we are dealing with probabilities. Your probability of success decreases significantly when someone has a knife. However, there are tactics and techniques that increase your chance of survival over others. It is valuable to train those. The delivery systems (striking, clinching, grappling) should be the same whether or not the attacker has a knife or not; but there are technical and tactical considerations that will greatly increase the probability of success. And these considerations could greatly change your overall fight plan. If one does not train those, then one will be in even bigger trouble if a knife were to ever present itself...

 

[Andrew Green]

Never said not to train it, just that the odds aren't good when the other person has a knife. Even with a big skill gap a knife can more then turn that around. Lot's of people don't seem to like admiting that, which leads to all the silly knife disarms like these:

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Which, unfortunately, we've all seen done by people that where serious

 

[thardey]

I think it's a pretty simple explanation, there is no reliable way to get a knife away from a person that wants to use it without a weapon.

Since a lot of people would rather believe that there is, and some instructors don't like to admit there isn't, "little things" like that get overlooked so that the fantasy can be made real in the dojo

It always amazes me that people who realize that there is no "magic combination" to win a fist fight against someone else your size seem to think that there is one or two "incredible knife defenses" that are guaranteed to work. But you're right, there's no reliable way to take that knife away. There are ways, they're just not trustworthy.

However, I do believe that with training, and a survival mindset, the odds of escaping from a stupid situation can be raised, and sometimes that involves taking control of the knife, or knife hand.

 

[Doc_Jude]

It always amazes me that people who realize that there is no "magic combination" to win a fist fight against someone else your size seem to think that there is one or two "incredible knife defenses" that are guaranteed to work. But you're right, there's no reliable way to take that knife away. There are ways, they're just not trustworthy.

However, I do believe that with training, and a survival mindset, the odds of escaping from a stupid situation can be raised, and sometimes that involves taking control of the knife, or knife hand.

I hate to preach to the choir, but the Dog Bros "Die Less Often" dvds are excellent at addressing this issue, they show many many drills for unarmed against knife.