Grappling only vs. knife...

Discussion in 'Knife Arts' started by Cruentus, Jan 31, 2008.

  1. Cruentus

    Cruentus Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Apr 17, 2002
    Messages:
    7,162
    Likes Received:
    129
    Trophy Points:
    173
    Location:
    At an OP in view of your house...
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=izDQwDT_ERg&feature=related

    Interesting illustration on how grappling by itself (without a clear strategy to control or diminish the use of the blade), as with any unarmed defense against a knife, is dangerous.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  2. thardey

    thardey Master Black Belt

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2007
    Messages:
    1,274
    Likes Received:
    94
    Trophy Points:
    73
    Location:
    Southern Oregon
    Good stuff

    It reminds me of this story

     
  3. Doc_Jude

    Doc_Jude 3rd Black Belt

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2007
    Messages:
    916
    Likes Received:
    36
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Location:
    Southern Kalifornia
    Marc is The Man. I love that story.

    Main problem is, you don't know if they're armed or not. That trainer could have easily been an ink pen or a broken bottle... standing, with footwork, you might have a chance, if you see it coming. Assuming they're armed helps a lot to relieve the action/reaction gap, allowing you to use distancing & angling so you can respond with action.
     
  4. Brian R. VanCise

    Brian R. VanCise MT Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2004
    Messages:
    27,758
    Likes Received:
    1,514
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Las Vegas, Nevada
    Grappling with tools and particularly knives is essential. Not only knowing how to make everything work on the ground when you are doing it but how and when and where do you deploy it. [​IMG]

    Just as important in the reverse is understanding how to tie up the limbs so that an opponent with a knife is limited.
     
  5. Doc_Jude

    Doc_Jude 3rd Black Belt

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2007
    Messages:
    916
    Likes Received:
    36
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Location:
    Southern Kalifornia
    When I started doing Silat (ironically, I started reading Marc MacYoung around the same time), I definitely became more weapon conscious. My new MO: I don't "go to the ground" unless I'm taken there, & I'm back up as soon as possible. Just me...

    That & I started working my sprawl and anti-takedown tactics MUCH MORE.
     
  6. Rich Parsons

    Rich Parsons A Student of Martial Arts

    • Advisor
    • Founding Member
    • LifeTime Supporting Member
    • Martial Talk Alumni
    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2001
    Messages:
    15,804
    Likes Received:
    435
    Trophy Points:
    208
    Location:
    Michigan

    As in anything, practicing the deployment of a technique or chosen weapon in situations is important.

    I have rolled with "C" and we also tried accessing weapons on our body or on the opponents body.

    It works when you both just hide the weapon and sometimes one has one and the other does not. So if they go looking for yours it might not be there.
     
  7. arnisador

    arnisador Sr. Grandmaster

    • Martial Talk Alumni
    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    44,560
    Likes Received:
    435
    Trophy Points:
    193
    Location:
    Terre Haute, IN
    Rich Parsons makes good points, but the basic fact remains--grappling against a knife is very much different from grappling unarmed.
     
  8. Rich Parsons

    Rich Parsons A Student of Martial Arts

    • Advisor
    • Founding Member
    • LifeTime Supporting Member
    • Martial Talk Alumni
    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2001
    Messages:
    15,804
    Likes Received:
    435
    Trophy Points:
    208
    Location:
    Michigan
    Could the phrase Infinitely Different be applied here? ;)
     
  9. Andrew Green

    Andrew Green Grandmaster

    • Martial Talk Alumni
    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2004
    Messages:
    8,628
    Likes Received:
    446
    Trophy Points:
    208
    Location:
    Winnipeg MB
    One thing that bothers me about this, and other demonstrations like it, is that it needlessly dummies down the "attacker". The unarmed guy basically walked into the first stab and completely ignored a visibile knife.

    Now, barring a massive, and I do mean massive gap in skill level of the two, he could make a serious attempt to fight taking the knife into consideration and have the same result 95+% of the time.

    By getting the guy to dive in blind I think it seriously weakens the point they where trying to make.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  10. tellner

    tellner Senior Master

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2005
    Messages:
    4,380
    Likes Received:
    235
    Trophy Points:
    173
    Location:
    Orygun
    Empty hand versus the knife plain sucks pus out of stillborn orangutans no matter how you go about it.

    And you're welcome for that graphic visual image :)
     
  11. Brian R. VanCise

    Brian R. VanCise MT Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2004
    Messages:
    27,758
    Likes Received:
    1,514
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Las Vegas, Nevada
    It definately is different and yet similar. That is if you are very well trained in grappling, BJJ, Wrestling, etc. and locks in general. (something that can be found in Silat, Arnis, Budo Taijutsu, etc. You will have an advantage in body movement provided you train with a real world mind set that yes does include having a knife or other tool in the mix now and then. I know with my wrestling and bjj background that I have for years gone through and trained grappling with knives, etc. and accessing them and deploying them while grappling. (I specialize in a few distinct flavors) This is a skill set all by itself and one that complements well with already existing ground skill sets. I find BJJ body movement excellent for this even if 99.9% of Brazilian Jiujitsu practitioiner's do not practice this. (though most the ones I have flipped the switch with picked up pretty quick and had correct body movement to go along with it) My bjj skills have always aided in this department.

    Yes it pretty much is evident that the idea there was to make the grappler look bad in this video. (and in the real world anyone not addressing the knife would be in really bad shape quick) I can simply say that because he sees the knife and makes no effort to tie it up, which I believe most people would. (if they know what is good for them or run like crazy)

    Still having said all the above grappling with a knife is seriously bad mojo. You do not want to be there if you can help it.
     
  12. MJS

    MJS Administrator Staff Member

    • LifeTime Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2003
    Messages:
    30,187
    Likes Received:
    427
    Trophy Points:
    208
    Location:
    Cromwell,CT
    Marc has some great stuff on his site and he makes some damn good points. In the event that you do find yourself in a grapple with someone with a weapon, I do feel that it is very important to know some solid defense. IMO, it opens up a new world. This is important, especially for those that are LEOs.

    While its obviously good to have skill with a weapon, a blade can be put in the hands of an untrained person and they can still inflict serious damage. If you train right with the blade, it can be deployed easily. Many folders have those clips that you can attach right into your pocket. Pull that out, while someone is working for a submission or control...well, the rest should be obvious. :)
     
    • Like Like x 1
  13. arnisador

    arnisador Sr. Grandmaster

    • Martial Talk Alumni
    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    44,560
    Likes Received:
    435
    Trophy Points:
    193
    Location:
    Terre Haute, IN
    This is a fair point. Where I take BJJ we do practice techniques to grab a hand and control it against the opponent's body (e.g., a rear bear hug where both of my hands control one of his, pinned hard to his body as I use my head/chest to buckle him forward). But the ability to switch the knife between one's hands makes a lot of that hard to do, and the video does show that as the grappler goes for a figure-4 armlock (it appears). Hence, I agree with you up to a point...the entry was unbelievable, and a good entry by the grappler could really change things; but once the grappling has started, I think the video is reasonably representative.
     
  14. Langenschwert

    Langenschwert Master Black Belt

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2007
    Messages:
    1,023
    Likes Received:
    349
    Trophy Points:
    123
    Location:
    Calgary, AB, Canada
    Excellent video.

    As a weapons practicioner myself, I find that many MAists underestimate the destructive capabilities of hand weapons. Note in the video the most basic of counters to knife control technqiues: shifting the knife to the other hand. Also note the efficacy of such a simple strategy. In Kunst des Fechtens, it's one of the oldest tricks in the book (literally!). In the Codex Wallerstein, it's shown as a counter to a scissors lock. Too bad I can't find the image online. :(

    Best regards,

    -Mark
     
  15. thardey

    thardey Master Black Belt

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2007
    Messages:
    1,274
    Likes Received:
    94
    Trophy Points:
    73
    Location:
    Southern Oregon
    When people find out I practice knife defense stuff, they often want to show their stuff. Usually, about halfway through their lock, I casually reach up and grab the practice knife with my free hand and drag it across their throat.

    It's amazing how many knife defenses don't take that into account.
     
  16. Andrew Green

    Andrew Green Grandmaster

    • Martial Talk Alumni
    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2004
    Messages:
    8,628
    Likes Received:
    446
    Trophy Points:
    208
    Location:
    Winnipeg MB
    I think it's a pretty simple explanation, there is no reliable way to get a knife away from a person that wants to use it without a weapon.

    Since a lot of people would rather believe that there is, and some instructors don't like to admit there isn't, "little things" like that get overlooked so that the fantasy can be made real in the dojo :)
     
    • Like Like x 1
  17. Cruentus

    Cruentus Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Apr 17, 2002
    Messages:
    7,162
    Likes Received:
    129
    Trophy Points:
    173
    Location:
    At an OP in view of your house...
    True. However, because the deck is stacked in someone else's favor when a weapon presents itself, that doesn't mean that we figure it to be a losing battle anyway, and never train material against such a situation.

    In self-defense, we are dealing with probabilities. Your probability of success decreases significantly when someone has a knife. However, there are tactics and techniques that increase your chance of survival over others. It is valuable to train those. The delivery systems (striking, clinching, grappling) should be the same whether or not the attacker has a knife or not; but there are technical and tactical considerations that will greatly increase the probability of success. And these considerations could greatly change your overall fight plan. If one does not train those, then one will be in even bigger trouble if a knife were to ever present itself...
     
  18. Andrew Green

    Andrew Green Grandmaster

    • Martial Talk Alumni
    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2004
    Messages:
    8,628
    Likes Received:
    446
    Trophy Points:
    208
    Location:
    Winnipeg MB
    Never said not to train it, just that the odds aren't good when the other person has a knife. Even with a big skill gap a knife can more then turn that around. Lot's of people don't seem to like admiting that, which leads to all the silly knife disarms like these:

    [yt]h_vvI26NnwE[/yt]

    Which, unfortunately, we've all seen done by people that where serious :eek:
     
  19. thardey

    thardey Master Black Belt

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2007
    Messages:
    1,274
    Likes Received:
    94
    Trophy Points:
    73
    Location:
    Southern Oregon
    It always amazes me that people who realize that there is no "magic combination" to win a fist fight against someone else your size seem to think that there is one or two "incredible knife defenses" that are guaranteed to work. But you're right, there's no reliable way to take that knife away. There are ways, they're just not trustworthy.

    However, I do believe that with training, and a survival mindset, the odds of escaping from a stupid situation can be raised, and sometimes that involves taking control of the knife, or knife hand.
     
  20. Doc_Jude

    Doc_Jude 3rd Black Belt

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2007
    Messages:
    916
    Likes Received:
    36
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Location:
    Southern Kalifornia
    I hate to preach to the choir, but the Dog Bros "Die Less Often" dvds are excellent at addressing this issue, they show many many drills for unarmed against knife.123
     

Share This Page