Why You Never Use 2 hands to Disarm a Knife

[sgtmac_46]

Do you know better than those guys, who really fought with sharps rather than sitting at their keyboards speculating? I doubt it. BTW, the technique I described is right out of one those books, written by Hans Talhoffer in 1447 (except Talhoffer used a closed fist not the palm heel). Personally, I'll take his advice over that of the armchair experts of today.

You might want to keep in mind that you are an armchair expert typing on a keyboard about things you've only read in books and practiced in dojos.....have you ever even seen the results of a real knife attack, in bloody person? I have! There was no chance to 'parry to a beautifully delivered arm bar'........it was, as Marc 'Crafty Dog' Denny describes it 'A crazed chimpanzee with a spike'.

One guy in a stabbing I showed up on DID punch his attacker in the face during the assault......of course he also got three stab wounds to the abdomen for his troubles.

The biggest problem I have with your posts is the dismissal of the threat of knife based on your 'dojo practice'.....the CERTAINTY that the attack will come in a certain manner, and you'll simply 'just parry to my horse stance and transition to the super-knife takeaway technique with the kung fu grip'......fortunately for you we live in a relatively safe society where the strong likelihood is that you'll never have to be confronted by a 'crazed chimpanzee with a spike'......but if you are, and you survive it, post some pictures of your injuries as a resulting object lesson.

 

[hafoc]

Quote:
Originally Posted by hafoc
So, you laugh. Actually, you deflect the attacking arm

The attack was a bait, so I pull it back across your deflection and cut you.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Let me write this in crayon for you guys. The techniques and defense approaches you sneer at are designed to deal with your average knifer, not your kali/escrimador expert who plays with you, feints, slashes and doesn't commit. The fact is, there is virtually nothing an unarmed guy can do against such a crafty and skillful enemy except try to run or pull out his piece. But that is not how the vast majority of knife attacks come down.

The average knife attack involves 2 key features: 1) it is committed, in that it is not preceded by feints. The guy just drives it home oblivious about any potential defense. 2) If the arm is not immediately controlled, the attacker will strike again and again, using multiple stabs.

This is a typical knife attack: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=BEjKU0p9JZw&feature=related

If you troll the web, you'll see a lot like them like this.

 

[sgtmac_46]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Let me write this in crayon for you guys. The techniques and defense approaches you sneer at are designed to deal with your average knifer, not your kali/escrimador expert who plays with you, feints, slashes and doesn't commit. The fact is, there is virtually nothing an unarmed guy can do against such a crafty and skillful enemy except try to run or pull out his piece. But that is not how the vast majority of knife attacks come down.

The average knife attack involves 2 key features: 1) it is committed, in that it is not preceded by feints. The guy just drives it home oblivious about any potential defense. 2) If the arm is not immediately controlled, the attacker will strike again and again, using multiple stabs.

This is a typical knife attack: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=BEjKU0p9JZw&feature=related

If you troll the web, you'll see a lot like them like this.

While 'trawling' the web is good.....i've seen plenty of knife attacks in real life, enough to tell you there IS no 'average knife attack'.

And if you're counting on your knife attacker to be drunk like the guy in the video......well, HOPE is not a plan of action.

I'll reiterate.....the problem I have with your comments is the surety that you know what the 'average knife attack' looks like. You're operating on a set of assumptions.......we're not even arguing about particular techniques.

The best thing you can do is perhaps find yourself a copy of the classic 'Surviving Edged Weapons' and at least alleviate yourself of the illusion of the 'average' knife attack.

 

[hafoc]

You might want to keep in mind that you are an armchair expert typing on a keyboard about things you've only read in books and practiced in dojos.....have you ever even seen the results of a real knife attack, in bloody person? I have! There was no chance to 'parry to a beautifully delivered arm bar'........it was, as Marc 'Crafty Dog' Denny describes it 'A crazed chimpanzee with a spike'.

One guy in a stabbing I showed up on DID punch his attacker in the face during the assault......of course he also got three stab wounds to the abdomen for his troubles.

The biggest problem I have with your posts is the dismissal of the threat of knife based on your 'dojo practice'.....the CERTAINTY that the attack will come in a certain manner, and you'll simply 'just parry to my horse stance and transition to the super-knife takeaway technique with the kung fu grip'......fortunately for you we live in a relatively safe society where the strong likelihood is that you'll never have to be confronted by a 'crazed chimpanzee with a spike'......but if you are, and you survive it, post some pictures of your injuries as a resulting object lesson.

Well, I am not as experienced as some, but I've been in more than two dozen street fights, I've been stabbed twice (three times if you count the time I stabbed myself ;-) ), I've had knives pulled on me more times than that, I once faced off with a guy knife to knife (though nothing happened after that), I was a cop reporter and not only saw the victims but read the cop reports and attended the trials of the killers, I worked for more than 20 years with corrections officers who live in the worst knife culture in the US and learned as much as I could from them about what comes down and how to deal with it, as well as discussing with cops their experiences and solutions. I've also spent a considerable amount of time looking at video of real knife attacks and studying everything in print I can get my hands on about what really happens on the street as opposed to what people think happens. I also have talked with quite a few guys who've faced knife attacks to find out how they happened and what they did to survive. If this means I'm an armchair expert, then I guess I am.

Now, lets talk about "dismissing the threat of the knife based on your dojo practice." Nothing I have said dismisses the threat of the knife. I'll be the first to tell you that they are very dangerous and that even a 10 year old with a knife is somebody to respect. The point of this discussion is my objection to some guys dissing a particular approach to edge weapon defense that has a proven track record and whose methods are found throughout the world spanning many centuries. The fact that so many people all over the world throughout so much time have found these methods useful should make one pause before shooting off an opinion. My point is that to dismiss that approach out of hand does nothing but display one's ignorance and indicates to me that the speaker has not spent any time determining how knife attacks really happen and what can be done to defeat them.

On your friend who punched a guy and then got stabbed: well, he probably didn't have control of the attacker's arm before he punched him. One key feature of this "classical" method is the first thing you try to do before anything else is get control of the other guy's arm so he doesn't get a chance to stick you again. If you don't do that, you might as well kiss your *** goodbye. Anyway, nothing is 100 percent certain to work, even this "classical" stuff.

Finally, let's address this "certainty" thing. You're right about that. You can't anticipate how the attack is going to be delivered because when you do that and deploy your defense in anticipation, you will be fooled, no question.

But the fact is, the average knife attack is in many ways predicable. Your average knifer tends to deliver blows in two ways: 1) the thrust from below in the forward grip to the heart or abdomen and 2) downward to the head and upper body with the icepick grip. The video evidence and the testimony I have received from people at the sharp end is consistent with this.

Here is a typical example of a knife attack which I've already posted but will post again: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=BEjKU0p9JZw&feature=related

Note the commitment behind the blow. Note how it is delivered. Note that the knifer doesn't change his general target while making repeated strikes. Note also that the victim defeated the attack even though he was wounded by gaining control of the attacker's arm and disarming him (altho the disarm is not seen).

Given that the average attack comes in either of these flavors, the majority of the medieval fight books, for instance, showing knife defenses describe defenses only for these types of attacks.

Of course, the attack may travel a different path, but if you have trained for the two basic ones, you can adapt to the attack as it unfolds and change your response to fit the situation. This assumes you see the attack coming and have time to react.

At the end of the day, this "classical" stuff is about how to defend yourself against the average knifer. It's not about how to defend yourself against the escrimador.

The mistake the two guys in the video that started this thread made is that they assume most knife attacks will be made as they make them. The facts don't support this assumption. They shouldn't have argued "these defenses are stupid and don't work." Instead, they should have argued "these defenses don't work against me." It is must harder to refute the latter argument, for a cautious knifer who anticipates a defense, who holds back and doesn't commit, who snipes away, who feints, weaves and dodges, is a really dangerous animal.

 

[hafoc]

The best thing you can do is perhaps find yourself a copy of the classic 'Surviving Edged Weapons' and at least alleviate yourself of the illusion of the 'average' knife attack.

A useful book. James LaFond's "The Logic of Steel" is probably better, tho. LaFond agrees that there is an "average" attack. He concludes after reviewing a mountain of evidence in Baltimore, that on the street, if the knife is deployed from the right front pocket it "will be used to stab up the center under the ribs." If it is deployed from the rear pocket or a case, these "tend to be used for an inward turning stab or a cut to the left side of the body." p. 80. "Virtually all blade and shank altercations are one-dimensional: with an armed party using a single posture and technique againt an unarmed party. . . . It's usually one way, all the way." p. 21. "Blade use tends to be pretty one-dimensional -- one way all the way, stab, stab, stab, stab!" p. 96.

 

[jks9199]

While 'trawling' the web is good.....i've seen plenty of knife attacks in real life, enough to tell you there IS no 'average knife attack'.

And if you're counting on your knife attacker to be drunk like the guy in the video......well, HOPE is not a plan of action.

I'll reiterate.....the problem I have with your comments is the surety that you know what the 'average knife attack' looks like. You're operating on a set of assumptions.......we're not even arguing about particular techniques.

The best thing you can do is perhaps find yourself a copy of the classic 'Surviving Edged Weapons' and at least alleviate yourself of the illusion of the 'average' knife attack.

Looking at the couple of knife attacks my jurisdiction (where they're thankfully usually rare) has had in the last year, we have slashing attacks, we have stabs (including the throat), we have brandishings, and we have fights that escalated to stabbings.

H'mm... They seem to be all over the board, don't they? If I expand it to the region... it just magnifies the diversity. We have machete attacks, we have a couple of outright knife fights, we have unsuspecting, passive stabbing victims, and we have actively resisting victims. (I think there was even one outright SWORD attack!)

 

[Rich Parsons]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Let me write this in crayon for you guys. The techniques and defense approaches you sneer at are designed to deal with your average knifer, not your kali/escrimador expert who plays with you, feints, slashes and doesn't commit. The fact is, there is virtually nothing an unarmed guy can do against such a crafty and skillful enemy except try to run or pull out his piece. But that is not how the vast majority of knife attacks come down.

The average knife attack involves 2 key features: 1) it is committed, in that it is not preceded by feints. The guy just drives it home oblivious about any potential defense. 2) If the arm is not immediately controlled, the attacker will strike again and again, using multiple stabs.

This is a typical knife attack: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=BEjKU0p9JZw&feature=related

If you troll the web, you'll see a lot like them like this.

First, I did not sneer at your techniques. You sneered at anyone not doing them your way. I have as much or more data as you do with my limited exposure years ago, and I was able to survive many with single hand passes. You are the one who dismissed and discouraged. I said to keep an open mind.

Second, when you quote me, please quote me. Give me credit for being in disagreement with you. This will also make it easier for people to see the flow of the discussion.

Third, you now state it is nto an absolute for experts, but what should be used by your teachings and experience. This approach up front would have been better, and possible would not have as much of a disagreement factor involved.


I have seen and faught guys on drugs who did not feel pain. Breaking thier arm/wrist did not stop them. They kept on coming.

The one thing I know for sure about anything is that there are no absolutes. One can train to minimize the risk factors, one can train to be effective against the common approach, but you should put those disclaimers on there. If someone did your technique and got hurt, their family might bring a court case against you, or worse do something in person. I do not wish this on you or anyone else, which is why I tried to speak in Effective and Efficient and that there is always a counter so people do not walk away believing if they know technique "A" then they are "safe".


Good Luck

 

[sgtmac_46]

A useful book. James LaFond's "The Logic of Steel" is probably better, tho. LaFond agrees that there is an "average" attack. He concludes after reviewing a mountain of evidence in Baltimore, that on the street, if the knife is deployed from the right front pocket it "will be used to stab up the center under the ribs." If it is deployed from the rear pocket or a case, these "tend to be used for an inward turning stab or a cut to the left side of the body." p. 80. "Virtually all blade and shank altercations are one-dimensional: with an armed party using a single posture and technique againt an unarmed party. . . . It's usually one way, all the way." p. 21. "Blade use tends to be pretty one-dimensional -- one way all the way, stab, stab, stab, stab!" p. 96.

You have to question the veracity of anyone who says 'It's usually one way, all the way'.......with all due respect to James LaFond, the examples he found in his Baltimore neighborhood are by no means an exhaustive analysis of what you're going to run in to.

There is a certainty in youth that experience tends to demolish......you've got time, hopefully.

At any rate, good luck!

 

[Sandstorm]

Some very practical and informative comments on such a delicate subject. I say delicate due to differences in belief at what is/isn't acceptable as defence against the knife in general.
I have always been a little worried about how brazen some people are/can be with regards to their sequence of planned moves against the armed assailant. I have also been mortified when I see the reaction on students' faces when you tell them there is no real tried and tested answer to dissarming the 'average' attack, simple because there are far too many variables to warrant the use of the word 'average', and that you most certainly should at least expect to uncur damage. Oftentimes, these students move elsewhere to train in another school. Must be a defence mechanism I guess, wanting to believe they can control the situation.

Knives are lethal. They can and will kill you. You face a knife-wielding assailant, you are in a whole new world. It's frightening! Couple your fear, nausea and adrenalin with the blur as your mind adjusts to the scenario, and you've already lost time. That is of course, providing the assailant hasn't already stabbed/slashed you. Your palms, now sweaty, making it difficult to make any form of grab etc etc

To all who have the answers to this scenario, you really don't. There is no answer, only the years you spent training and drilling may help you. Then again, they may not. But for christs sake, please do not be so complaicent about the situation. It could and probably will cost you your paralysis/deformation/your life!

Just my 2 pence worth. Nice to be a part of these baords.

Os.

 

[Glycerine0160]

This thread was a very good read, although I only read a few pages. It really opened my eyes up to what it might really be like. It's actually somewhat ironic because last night I was at this party. Some moronic situation about a girl and guy breaking glass in the house made them all head outside and get rowdy. I had a little to drink, and I went outside with no intentions of anything just to see what was going on. I see these kids getting in each others faces and they are screaming at the top of their lungs at 3 AM. I get in between there little tough struts, and push them apart and tell them to break it up. Well the one kid who broke the glass and started the whole problem threw what I believe to be a hay maker which got me in the ear/cheek bone area. I never really broke up a real potential fight before, I was very naive not to be ready for an attack and quite buzzed. I was also very mad that he hit me given I had nothing to do with it, and I am a very approachable looking person, so therefor, he wanted to just hit someone. So he took off in the fastest sprint and I ran after him but not very intently. Kind of in anger but kind of like, this isn't worth it. So he gets way out of range and I'm just slowly walking now just about to turn around. (none of the kids who would of been on my side were really near me) So this kid's friend, goes into his car, and puts on a show he's getting a gun. I must admit, I was worried but I was not able to discern the severity or authenticity of the situation. I immediately took my karambit out of its holster and put it in my pocket with my hand on it. The kid who was playing like he had a gun was shouting "who has a problem with my boy" as he had his right hand vested into his jacket. He came up to me and asked if I had a problem. I easily decided, if he has a gun, I will stab him but I'm not going to instigate this. If he doesn't, well my mind is so set on stabbing, I think that will be my only option. So I told him his friendpunched me and I had nothing to do with this and to chill out. Not to mention, I"m going for law enforcement and I want to avoid trouble. Actually, I'm not going to parties anymore I decideded. It just makes too much risk for a person aiming for law enforcement to be gambling.


Just wanted to get that story out.
Great tip on the Quik Clot.
I think I will aim to buy this relatively soon.

 

[Jeff Richardson]

Todd has issued some good advice here in the early posts. The problem I see with those first video's is not only the distance problem others have pointed out. The unarmed guy should not be hanging in that distance at all. But also in a two handed grab you should be moving to his outside and putting his arm between you and his other arm while attacking and breaking things.

Grab both hands steppig to the outside, then control his elbow by leveraging it against your arm, shoulder or side. Control the wrist with a lock if you have the chance. Then break some joint and/or disarm him.

Knife fighting is nasty business, best to just accept that if you can't run you may get cut or stabbed and just deal with that reality. I don't care if you are unarmed or you both have knives... that's the reality.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

The one thing I know for sure about anything is that there are no absolutes. One can train to minimize the risk factors, one can train to be effective against the common approach, but you should put those disclaimers on there. If someone did your technique and got hurt, their family might bring a court case against you, or worse do something in person. I do not wish this on you or anyone else, which is why I tried to speak in Effective and Efficient and that there is always a counter so people do not walk away believing if they know technique "A" then they are "safe".


Good Luck

No Absolutes....... now that is a term that is right on the money regarding all martial practices, attacks, etc!

I say this all the time when I am training and teaching. It is also one more reason why you need to have options or variations built into your training!