Grandmaster?

[pgsmith]

What do you think qualifies someone to be a Grandmaster?

Nothing.

 

[Buka]

Everyone shall now refer to me as Grandmaster, from now on.


I called dibs!

I've always loved a good dibs. Grandmaster Simon it is!

 

[JR 137]

I see the title grandmaster used in a lot of Americanized systems/organizations passing themselves off as “traditional Asian” systems/organizations where you’ve got these self-promoted and proclaimed Sokes and the like. I’ve seen it used very times by actual Japanese and Okinawan organizations and/or those with strong lineage and/or cultural ties to them. When I see it in those, it’s usually reserved for the head of and/or founder of an art/organization. And it’s being said by someone else, ie an instructor under that person. And it’s typically a non-Japanese saying it. I don’t think there’s an actual direct Japanese term for grandmaster.

For example, you may see someone saying Grandmaster Jigoro Kano, Grandmaster Gichin Funakoshi, Grandmaster Chojun Miyagi, etc.

I’m sure TKD people will discredit what I’m about to say, but by observation I typically see it mostly in TKD and it appears to me as a title tied to a very high rank like 8-10th dan.

 

[JR 137]

Then again whenever I see Grandmaster, I always think of this Grandmaster first. The truest Grandmaster of them all...

GRANDMASTER FLASH!

 

[pdg]

I’m sure TKD people will discredit what I’m about to say, but by observation I typically see it mostly in TKD and it appears to me as a title tied to a very high rank like 8-10th dan.

Not to discredit

In 'my' ITF, 7th and 8th dan are 'master' and 9th is 'gran master'. There is no 10th.

Other TKD orgs have different structures.

 

[Flying Crane]

People in the USA and other parts of the West seem to like titles and accolades that elevate them above the rest.

I think in China at least, they don’t have the same attachment nor see much use for them. Unless they are marketing to the USA or other parts of the West.

 

[skribs]

I’m sure TKD people will discredit what I’m about to say, but by observation I typically see it mostly in TKD and it appears to me as a title tied to a very high rank like 8-10th dan.

Maybe 7th Dan, but yes, it is entirely tied to rank. Just like in the Army when someone is an O-7 you call them General or Admiral, in TKD if someone is D-7 or so you call them "Grand Master."

People in the USA and other parts of the West seem to like titles and accolades that elevate them above the rest.

I think in China at least, they don’t have the same attachment nor see much use for them. Unless they are marketing to the USA or other parts of the West.

I can't speak for China, but I think in Korean culture it is important, because it is important to my Master. Of course, that may be him appropriating the American culture, so I can't be sure, but it seems like the title is important to him. It's important to him because it's something he's earned, it's a position given to him through the organization, and showing respect to him and his title is showing respect to him for the work he's done to earn it, and the organization that granted it. To be clear, he shows as much respect to everyone as he demands in return, so it's not like he's throwing around "I'm the master" as an ego trip.

 

[wab25]

In Taekwondo, you wouldn't call yourself that unless you've earned the appropriate rank. At which point I don't see the problem with demanding people call you by the title the organization has bestowed upon you. I call my Master "Master" and I tell my students NOT to call me Master because I haven't earned it yet. (I say "I'm mister, I'm not a master yet...although I like the sound of that!"). When I have earned the title, you bet I'm going to insist on my students calling me Master.

This is just me... but I don't do well with people demanding or insisting that I call them something. If it is a title that they have earned, why do they need to demand or insist I use the title? Do they lose the title, if I don't use it? Or if they don't hear it enough?

I choose to use titles. I do so, because I am trying to show respect. Its my choice. If you have to insist or demand the use of a title... you lose a portion of my respect.

It's important to him because it's something he's earned, it's a position given to him through the organization, and showing respect to him and his title is showing respect to him for the work he's done to earn it, and the organization that granted it. To be clear, he shows as much respect to everyone as he demands in return, so it's not like he's throwing around "I'm the master" as an ego trip.

I do even less well with folks that demand my respect. If you have to demand it, it is not respect.

In my view, respect can only be given. You can demand all you want, but you only get my respect when I choose to give it. You can do whatever you want, to earn my respect, but you still don't get it, until I choose to give you respect. It can't be true respect, unless I give it of my own free will.

The whole "sir" and "mister" thing, falls a little flat for me too. We are not in the military. We are in an after school program for adults. The places where I continue to go, we find ways to treat each other as adults and as people first.

Each organization sets their own titles, and requirements and so forth. When I meet and train with these people, I use appropriate titles out of my respect for them. Those I respect most, introduce themselves: "Hi, I am Bill, nice to meet you." If I wanted to know their rank, I would look it up elsewhere. But, I would only do that, after figuring out how much I respect them, and then only out of idle curiosity. I have already determined if I want to spend more time on their mat. When someone does not need to hide behind a title or pretend we are in the military for no reason... I tend to respect them a bit more. They tend to let their ability stand for what it is. If they have put the time in, it will show in the quality of their technique and/or their teaching... and most importantly, the quality of their character.

As an instructor, the highest form of respect I want from my students, is to try to do what I ask them to, how I ask them to do it. They can "Hai Sensei!" me and "Yes Sir!" me all day... but if they won't attempt to change the details I ask them to change, how much do they really respect me as an instructor? I do the same when I am the student. First and foremost, I do my best to do exactly as I am being asked, while on their mat. I find it very disrespectful to say "Hai Sensei" with my lips while my actions on the mat say "I don't believe what you are teaching me enough to even try it."

 

[skribs]

This is just me... but I don't do well with people demanding or insisting that I call them something. If it is a title that they have earned, why do they need to demand or insist I use the title? Do they lose the title, if I don't use it? Or if they don't hear it enough?

I choose to use titles. I do so, because I am trying to show respect. Its my choice. If you have to insist or demand the use of a title... you lose a portion of my respect.


I do even less well with folks that demand my respect. If you have to demand it, it is not respect.

In my view, respect can only be given. You can demand all you want, but you only get my respect when I choose to give it. You can do whatever you want, to earn my respect, but you still don't get it, until I choose to give you respect. It can't be true respect, unless I give it of my own free will.

The whole "sir" and "mister" thing, falls a little flat for me too. We are not in the military. We are in an after school program for adults. The places where I continue to go, we find ways to treat each other as adults and as people first.

Each organization sets their own titles, and requirements and so forth. When I meet and train with these people, I use appropriate titles out of my respect for them. Those I respect most, introduce themselves: "Hi, I am Bill, nice to meet you." If I wanted to know their rank, I would look it up elsewhere. But, I would only do that, after figuring out how much I respect them, and then only out of idle curiosity. I have already determined if I want to spend more time on their mat. When someone does not need to hide behind a title or pretend we are in the military for no reason... I tend to respect them a bit more. They tend to let their ability stand for what it is. If they have put the time in, it will show in the quality of their technique and/or their teaching... and most importantly, the quality of their character.

As an instructor, the highest form of respect I want from my students, is to try to do what I ask them to, how I ask them to do it. They can "Hai Sensei!" me and "Yes Sir!" me all day... but if they won't attempt to change the details I ask them to change, how much do they really respect me as an instructor? I do the same when I am the student. First and foremost, I do my best to do exactly as I am being asked, while on their mat. I find it very disrespectful to say "Hai Sensei" with my lips while my actions on the mat say "I don't believe what you are teaching me enough to even try it."

It's not A or B. Its not "you can call me sir or do what I say." Respect is shown at every level of the attitude and exchange.

It's not the military, but it ia formality, and being more formal is a way of being more respectful. And usually when someone doesn't refer to my Master by his title, it is part of a lack of respect towards him. As in, they're being little snots and that's just part of it.

Keep in mind that about 80 to 90 percent of our students are under 12 years old.

 

[Buka]

Little known fact from literature, in Hans Christian Anderson's story The Emperor's New Clothes, the Emporer's name was Johan Grandmaster.

 

[pgsmith]

I was at a competition a number of years back, and a fellow came up to me in the bar and introduced himself as "Master". Needless to say I was less than impressed, since he didn't even offer to buy me a beer to make up for it.

 

[Dirty Dog]

In our system, Master is 4th-6th Dan, GM is 7th Dan or higher. Because that's what the head honchos decided, and there doesn't really need to be any other reason.
All Dan holders are Mr/Mrs/Miss/Ms, or Sir/M'am.
Outside class I'm just Mark. And I don't really care if people forget to use titles in class, either. Unless they forget with one of my seniors. Then I care.

 

[skribs]

In our system, Master is 4th-6th Dan, GM is 7th Dan or higher. Because that's what the head honchos decided, and there doesn't really need to be any other reason.
All Dan holders are Mr/Mrs/Miss/Ms, or Sir/M'am.
Outside class I'm just Mark. And I don't really care if people forget to use titles in class, either. Unless they forget with one of my seniors. Then I care.

I think it's very interesting the difference between me and my Master (I am 15 years younger) and then my parents and my Master (my parents are 15-20 years older). With my parents, there is a 2-way street of deference. My parents respect him and his wisdom and experience as a Master, and he respects them and theirs as his elders.

With me, he is both my master and my elder.

 

[JR 137]

I was at a competition a number of years back, and a fellow came up to me in the bar and introduced himself as "Master". Needless to say I was less than impressed, since he didn't even offer to buy me a beer to make up for it.

There was this guy who taught TKD as an after school program where I teach (academic school). He introduced himself to EVERYONE as “Master John.” Parents, faculty, etc. Of course me being me, I couldn’t help but mutter “Master Bates is here” whenever he walked in. Two teachers at the school actually thought that was his last name. One teacher unknowingly mentioned “Master Bates” during a staff meeting (fortunately he wasn’t there). Everyone knew exactly where it originated, even the ones who never heard me say it knew it had to come from me.

Yeah, I’ve got a reputation for absurdity.

 

[JR 137]

Why is it I have serious issues with calling anyone Master anything, yet I have zero problems with calling someone Master in another language, like Shihan (Japanese)? I’d honestly not attend any school where I had to call anyone master, no matter how good the instruction hypothetically would be.

Edit: For the record, I’m white. Many of my black friends say they’d never call anyone master; I understand and respect that. My disdain for it has nothing to do with that. My mind doesn’t go anywhere near there in a MA context.

 

[_Simon_]

Why is it I have serious issues with calling anyone Master anything, yet I have zero problems with calling someone Master in another language, like Shihan (Japanese)? I’d honestly not attend any school where I had to call anyone master, no matter how good the instruction hypothetically would be.

Edit: For the record, I’m white. Many of my black friends say they’d never call anyone master; I understand and respect that. My disdain for it has nothing to do with that. My mind doesn’t go anywhere near there in a MA context.

Haha yeah I'd also find it weird to call someone master to be honest... but very comfortable with Shihan, Sensei and Sempai.

And nup I still can't not imagine you as being black (have always just associated your avatar with you hahaha XD).

 

[Dirty Dog]

Why is it I have serious issues with calling anyone Master anything, yet I have zero problems with calling someone Master in another language, like Shihan (Japanese)? I’d honestly not attend any school where I had to call anyone master, no matter how good the instruction hypothetically would be.

Edit: For the record, I’m white. Many of my black friends say they’d never call anyone master; I understand and respect that. My disdain for it has nothing to do with that. My mind doesn’t go anywhere near there in a MA context.

I'm going to guess it's because you have a western definition of the title stuck in your mind.

 

[now disabled]

I'm going to guess it's because you have a western definition of the title stuck in your mind.

That to me is a very very pertinent point, the difference in the definition and what goes with that between east and west

an example (only my opinion) the Japanese looked on the first westerners as barbarians and we looked on them as backward heathens ... Our western definition of barbarian differed from theirs and conversely until there were christian converts in Japan they had no idea of what a heathen was.

So different ideas yet the same words

 

[oftheherd1]

I hate that term and refuse to use it. I don't see the point of it apart from ego flashing.

Everyone can decide things for themselves, but my GM would accept the title Master from Americans, but preferred GM, since he was one, so I called him that. He did not designate himself a GM, but was promoted to that by other GM. It required testing of the techniques of the art, and proofs of contributions to the art. Calling a GM by that title was considered polite and proper. To call them less implied impropriety and impoliteness.

But every art and practitioner gets to set their own standards and ranks/titles.

 

[oftheherd1]

Haha yeah I'd also find it weird to call someone master to be honest... but very comfortable with Shihan, Sensei and Sempai.

And nup I still can't not imagine you as being black (have always just associated your avatar with you hahaha XD).

In the USA, for those who continue to make it so, there is baggage connected with the title 'Master,' in Asia, at least in Japan and Korea, especially in the martial arts, it is a title of respect for a level of learning, and abilities of the art. We have terms that imply that in the western world, such as 'Doctor' mentioned above, for those of a certain learning in the medical field. In my understanding of some asian cultures, I have no problem calling some teachers Master or Grand Master. But that's just me.

Why is it I have serious issues with calling anyone Master anything, yet I have zero problems with calling someone Master in another language, like Shihan (Japanese)? I’d honestly not attend any school where I had to call anyone master, no matter how good the instruction hypothetically would be.

Edit: For the record, I’m white. Many of my black friends say they’d never call anyone master; I understand and respect that. My disdain for it has nothing to do with that. My mind doesn’t go anywhere near there in a MA context.

I don't know you but I would guess it is the baggage issue I mentioned above. If you have a lot of black friends, you may choose to try and ensure you never hurt or anger them by using a title Master or Grand Master. Or not, since you say not. But that is just you. Many are like you in the west, especially in the USA. It is sort of part of our history and culture.

But consider - If you went to teach somewhere in asia, and got angry with students who insisted they should bow to you when they encountered you, and let them know that, what would you expect their reaction to be?