Grandmaster?

[_Simon_]

He refers to and calls my teacher “Shuseki Shihan Don” another teacher at my school “Jun Shihan Scott” etc. Kyokushin does more or less the same. So do others.

Ah yep I remember when I went to check out a Seido dojo I was confused with the titles! There was Jun Shihan, Kyoshi.. there seem more titles than in Kyokushin, but there are still a few more than just Sensei.

Ours was
1st-2nd Dan: Sempai
3rd-4th Dan: Sensei
5th-6th Dan: Shiha
Then up from there is Hanshi and Kancho, unsure where they fall exactly, Kancho obviously meaning more the president or head of the organisation.

And our branch chief was honoured with the title Shihancho, meaning chief of the Shihans (moreso because the immense contribution and effort he put into developing and teaching Kyokushin over the many years)

 

[Buka]

Personally, I think Traditional refers more to the combat style of the art itself. If I think of something being Americanized, I think of it either being:

• Advertised to be a quick way to learn
• Focus more on Hollywood style fighting than actual combat
• Incorporate a lot of techniques you think more Americans would want, i.e. techniques common to MMA fighting, or punching styles more similar to boxing

I think saying "I'm Sensei Smith" makes sense for an American audience, but if that's all you're changing, the rest is still TJMA.

Start of rant, buckle up.

Whoa, whoa, WHOA! Just hold the F on there, bro. I've dedicated forty five years of my life to American Karate, and I'm pretty sure American Karate is as Americanized as a Martial Art can get. "Actual combat" my ****.

Ain't nothing quick about the way we learn. And rather than advertise that, we tell prospective students just the opposite.

Focus on Hollywood style fighting? I've worked in Hollywood, choreographed fight scenes and written movies, have you? Ain't got nothing to do with American Karate, or Americanized anything.

I could not give a rat's ask about what Americans want. I don' give a rat's ask what anyone wants. However, many of the things we happen to do can be found in MMA, and yes, we, amongst other ways, punch a lot like boxers. You know why? Because we fight a lot in training and find it effective.

I have years in TKD as well. High level I like to think. But we never sold Americanized anything short. Un uh.

Okay, I caught my breath now. Rant over. Us Americanized folks get all up in arms over certain things having to do with our country.

And...my wife wants to go to Seattle next year, she's never been. That ain't to far from you I don't think. Maybe we can hook up and get all Americanized over some fine food.

 

[JR 137]

Kaicho means President or Chairman. It is the acknowledged head of an organization.

I get what you're saying, it just doesn't change my original thoughts on it. The videos you are referring to here are narrated by some obviously American fellow, and we've no idea who wrote the text for him to narrate.

This conversation has made me think way back to an early job as Hotel maintenance. The hotel manager spoke fluent Spanish, so he could talk with the maintenance and housekeeping folks as they were all Mexican (El Paso, Texas). However, he spoke Spanish with a very strong and definite Minnesota accent. The staff used to ask him random questions just so they could listen to him talk. He was totally understandable, it just sounded pretty weird. That's the same sort of feeling I get.



Nope, but I think you should make some more ridiculous assertions to get it all out of your system.

So how do you judge if the martial art aspects are the same and it's only the words that have changed? Not saying they aren't as I've no way of knowing, just asking.

I really don’t want to keep this going more than it really needs to. And I’m pretty sure our opinions are significantly closer than what it would appear to be through this medium, however...

It is narrated by “Nidaime” Akira Nakamura, Tadashi Nakamura’s son. I’m quite sure he and his father scripted it, ut I can’t say that with 100% certainty. Nidaime Nakamura was born and raised here, but he is very much Japanese. He’s a very well spoken and articulate person, hence sounding like it may have been scripted.

And I’m aware of Kaicho’s translation into English. I just wasn’t sure if that’s looked at the same way as other titles such as Shihan, Hanshi, etc., or if it’s more freely used, if that makes sense. I guess what I’m saying is Kaicho isn’t strictly a MA title (I know the other ones aren’t either, but Kaicho is used far more outside MA than the others), so I don’t know if using Kaicho is looked at the same way or more acceptable.

 

[JR 137]

Ah yep I remember when I went to check out a Seido dojo I was confused with the titles! There was Jun Shihan, Kyoshi.. there seem more titles than in Kyokushin, but there are still a few more than just Sensei.

Ours was
1st-2nd Dan: Sempai
3rd-4th Dan: Sensei
5th-6th Dan: Shiha
Then up from there is Hanshi and Kancho, unsure where they fall exactly, Kancho obviously meaning more the president or head of the organisation.

And our branch chief was honoured with the title Shihancho, meaning chief of the Shihans (moreso because the immense contribution and effort he put into developing and teaching Kyokushin over the many years)

There’s a specific title to each rank from 3rd dan-8th dan. Nakamura is 9th dan, there are 4 8th dans, and I think 5 or 6 7th dans in the organization.

According to my teacher there were originally I think 3 titles - Shihan, Sensei, and Senpai. As the organization grew and expanded worldwide, and more people were getting up there in rank, Nakamura wanted a way to differentiate his senior-most students like Charles Martin and William Oliver from the rest. He started adding a few titles, and it sort of evolved into every dan rank from 3rd up getting their own title.

After Kaicho...
8th dan - Hanshi
7th dan - Shuseki Shihan
6th dan - Jun Shihan/Sei Shihan (depending on time in grade)
5th dan - Kyoshi
4th dan - Sensei
3rd dan - Senpai

1st and 2nd dans are called Senpai in their dojo, but it’s not an official title for them. 3rd dan is called Senpai everywhere in the organization.

I think it’s a bit overkill with the titles, but in the whole grand scheme of things it really doesn’t matter. It’s not like a title changes what’s being done nor taught. My CI has said a few times that he misses being called sensei. Protocol/etiquette is what it is, and again the titles don’t really change what’s going on. And there’s very very few with the top 3 titles when you take into account that there’s over 20,000 active members in the organization.

 

[_Simon_]

There’s a specific title to each rank from 3rd dan-8th dan. Nakamura is 9th dan, there are 4 8th dans, and I think 5 or 6 7th dans in the organization.

According to my teacher there were originally I think 3 titles - Shihan, Sensei, and Senpai. As the organization grew and expanded worldwide, and more people were getting up there in rank, Nakamura wanted a way to differentiate his senior-most students like Charles Martin and William Oliver from the rest. He started adding a few titles, and it sort of evolved into every dan rank from 3rd up getting their own title.

After Kaicho...
8th dan - Hanshi
7th dan - Shuseki Shihan
6th dan - Jun Shihan/Sei Shihan (depending on time in grade)
5th dan - Kyoshi
4th dan - Sensei
3rd dan - Senpai

1st and 2nd dans are called Senpai in their dojo, but it’s not an official title for them. 3rd dan is called Senpai everywhere in the organization.

I think it’s a bit overkill with the titles, but in the whole grand scheme of things it really doesn’t matter. It’s not like a title changes what’s being done nor taught. My CI has said a few times that he misses being called sensei. Protocol/etiquette is what it is, and again the titles don’t really change what’s going on. And there’s very very few with the top 3 titles when you take into account that there’s over 20,000 active members in the organization.

Ah yep makes sense, and exactly it doesn't change anything taught etc, but practically I can see why he did that. Grand scheme of things it's no issue, as alot of masters gone would say: "Just train!"

 

[Buka]

God, I love this place.

 

[dvcochran]

I really don’t want to keep this going more than it really needs to. And I’m pretty sure our opinions are significantly closer than what it would appear to be through this medium, however...

It is narrated by “Nidaime” Akira Nakamura, Tadashi Nakamura’s son. I’m quite sure he and his father scripted it, ut I can’t say that with 100% certainty. Nidaime Nakamura was born and raised here, but he is very much Japanese. He’s a very well spoken and articulate person, hence sounding like it may have been scripted.

And I’m aware of Kaicho’s translation into English. I just wasn’t sure if that’s looked at the same way as other titles such as Shihan, Hanshi, etc., or if it’s more freely used, if that makes sense. I guess what I’m saying is Kaicho isn’t strictly a MA title (I know the other ones aren’t either, but Kaicho is used far more outside MA than the others), so I don’t know if using Kaicho is looked at the same way or more acceptable.

I am way outside my purview but a person of another decent ,Japanese in this discussion, born and raised in the US may be 100% Japanese by blood but they will surely have quite a bit of American influence and tendencies. IMHO

 

[JR 137]

I am way outside my purview but a person of another decent ,Japanese in this discussion, born and raised in the US may be 100% Japanese by blood but they will surely have quite a bit of American influence and tendencies. IMHO

True. But growing up in a household where both parents and all siblings are speaking Japanese, I’d say he’s well aware of the customs and traditions.

I was born and raised here. My father and all of his side of the family spoke nothing but Armenian to me until I was around 20 or so. I’m well aware of what’s acceptable and not acceptable in my culture.

Same for anyone else in his and my shoes.

 

[Balrog]

What do you think qualifies someone to be a Grandmaster?

There are several methods. Number of students overall, number of students who have become masters, whatever.

I personally think that we are always students. A Master is just someone who is a really good student. A Grandmaster is someone who is a really, really, really good student.

 

[JR 137]

There are several methods. Number of students overall, number of students who have become masters, whatever.

I personally think that we are always students. A Master is just someone who is a really good student. A Grandmaster is someone who is a really, really, really good student.

A grandmaster is someone who never stopped training.

I just wanted to take one of those cheesy black belt motivational quotes and make it my own

 

[Gerry Seymour]

A grandmaster is someone who never stopped training.

I just wanted to take one of those cheesy black belt motivational quotes and make it my own

A black belt is a white belt who wouldn't quit.

An instructor is a black belt who wouldn't shut up.

 

[JR 137]

A black belt is a white belt who wouldn't quit.

An instructor is a black belt who wouldn't shut up.

So I guess by progression...

A master is an instructor who wouldn’t stop beating up on his underling instructors.

A grandmaster is a master who wouldn’t stop hazing the underling masters.

 

[_Simon_]

A black belt is a student who loves to learn and is so humble like a flower opening to the sun's rays!

A grandmaster is a rainbow who learns from every colour of the spectrum and doesn't discard anything and never ever gives up and falls down but gets back up, oh and drinks unicorn tears!


(... too much? XD)

 

[JR 137]

A black belt is a student who loves to learn and is so humble like a flower opening to the sun's rays!

A grandmaster is a rainbow who learns from every colour of the spectrum and doesn't discard anything and never ever gives up and falls down but gets back up, oh and drinks unicorn tears!


(... too much? XD)

Yeah, just a little bit too much. Drop the unicorn tears part and I think you’re good to go.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

A black belt is a student who loves to learn and is so humble like a flower opening to the sun's rays!

A grandmaster is a rainbow who learns from every colour of the spectrum and doesn't discard anything and never ever gives up and falls down but gets back up, oh and drinks unicorn tears!


(... too much? XD)

I'm seriously going to put all of these on signs and put them up in my training space.

 

[_Simon_]

I'm seriously going to put all of these on signs and put them up in my training space.

Please do! You should put these up too:

There are too many good ones, I'd just better stop now!

 

[TSDTexan]

Why is it I have serious issues with calling anyone Master anything, yet I have zero problems with calling someone Master in another language, like Shihan (Japanese)? I’d honestly not attend any school where I had to call anyone master, no matter how good the instruction hypothetically would be.

Edit: For the record, I’m white. Many of my black friends say they’d never call anyone master; I understand and respect that. My disdain for it has nothing to do with that. My mind doesn’t go anywhere near there in a MA context.

Shihan, "Teacher of teachers" or "Model Instructor"
Typically, this is a Title (honorific) that is awarded, and usually the last in the Renshi, Kyoshi, Shihan sequence.

I don't think it would be fair to translate Shihan as master per se. At least in a formal sense.

 

[dvcochran]

Shihan, "Teacher of teachers" or "Model Instructor"
Typically, this is a Title (honorific) that is awarded, and usually the last in the Renshi, Kyoshi, Shihan sequence.

I don't think it would be fair to translate Shihan as master per se. At least in a formal sense.

Like your edit. But I would stop short of saying never until you had real time under a legitimate master.
That said, I have two Masters degrees. Other than putting them at the end of my name on LinkedIn they are seldom used. The exception is in meetings where some insecure knucklehead has to know your credentials to feel like you know what you are talking about. Frankly they have little to do with my business expertise.

 

[Martial D]

Then again whenever I see Grandmaster, I always think of this Grandmaster first. The truest Grandmaster of them all...
View attachment 21585
GRANDMASTER FLASH!

I was literally digging up a GMF video to post when I saw this.