Diffrent punches

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Talk' started by Rat, Jul 11, 2018.

  1. Rat

    Rat Blue Belt

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    (excuse title i always suck at these)

    Making this thread to get a objective comparison of some different punches out there, i will lay out the ones i know about and what i think they do and what i think their pros and cons are. This is also my first post here so haza. I am also not of much martial arts experience.

    Ok so all these basically have the same or similar mechanics of how to do the punch but its a different part of the hand you hit with.


    Horizontal Straight Punch
    So this is the one most people learn and i have learnt how to do it with the few styles i have done. Its basically the same mechanics wise, but you just strike with the first two knuckles and put more emphasis on the rotation of the arm.fist to generate power alongside the hips.
    The only complaint i can think for this one is, the twisting motion is important for its power and maybe its more dangerous for your wrists/fists. But it seems to work for the most part.


    Vertical Straight Punch

    As opposed to the horizontal straight punch, you put less or no emphasis on rotating your fist and arm for power generation, exactly the same without the rotation.* i have had this one cited to appearing in bare knuckle boxing and being "anatomically stronger" than the horizontal one because of bone alignment. For the most part i believe you aim with either your top two knuckles, bottom three or all of them. I have not been taught to do this one however i have grown into a habit of doing them when play fighting and thus growing out of using the other punch stated above. This one also seems to work


    * Three knuckle punching
    So technically under this one, i have not actually been taught how to do this, but do you aim with your second knuckle to hit with the bottom 3 or do you aim with your entire fist? I was trying to figure it out on a bag and bottom 3 knuckles seems to make the entire fist hit the target. What would be the difference if any to a normal vertical punch?

    Reverse Punch

    So another one i have not actually learnt how to do, but since taekwondo does punching from the belt its basically a punch palm up from the belt. This one i found in "self defence for gentlemen and ladies" a treatise for bare knuckle self defence. This is the type of punch he details the most i believe. Seems to work fine, i have accidentally done it while punching a heave bag before, seems simple enough to do. You aim with your entire fist this time, how ever you can only reliable hit the solar plexus and face, at least thats whats recommended in the treatise. It exists in kung fu and karate last i checked as well as probably a few bare knuckle boxing treatises.
    (edit): This punch also seems like basically the punch you do in a uppercut. this was also popular for the long boxing stances which used to be done.

    (edit)Hammer Fist
    I feel like this needs a mention as it can be done easily from a closed fist and is generally considered a good strike which limits the amount of injury you can do to your hands. I again haven't been taught how to do this but, its basically striking with the bottom of your closed fist fist.

    (edit)Backfist

    Another strike i should mention, i don't know the details of this or how well it works past you just hit someone in soft areas with the back of your closed fist, just believe it needs a mention. This one is a old bare knuckle boxing one mainly, i think anyway. It seems to work all right if you clip someone in the face with it, but im pretty sure it can damage your hand if you hit something too hard.


    Ok, i know about hooks and uppercuts etc, but i dont actually know how to do them safely and opted to avoid doing them on a heavy bag due to them putting your fist at compromised positions. For the most part, hooks seem to put your hand in a bad position without gloves. They work, but its a risk to benefit question.

    Opinions as it stands? I personally like the vertical punching as i have conditioned myself to use it when i play and use the heavy bag despite not being taught how to do it. Apologies if this is a little jumbled.
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2018
  2. skribs

    skribs Master of Arts

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    The important thing with any punch is that your wrist is straight. This applies to any punch regardless of what part of the hand you strike with, and what motion you make. If your wrist is straight and you are twisting (as in the horizontal punch) there is no more risk to your wrist than in a punch without the twist. If your wrist is straight as you swing in an arc (with a hook or uppercut motion) then there is no more risk to your wrist than in a straight punch. Uppercuts will be impossible on a heavy bag.

    If these punches were not safe to use, they wouldn't be staples in many, many fighting systems.

    Try not to take this the wrong way, but your knowledge of the various punches seems rather limited, both in scope (how many punches there are) and in terms of how individual punches work. This is something that can easily be rectified with instruction and experience, and is going to be hard to communicate via text over the internet. I am not trying to insult you, but rather suggest strongly that you take martial arts classes and learn these properly from an instructor, as they will be much better able to help you.

    • Horizontal Punch vs. Reverse Punch - what you describe as a "Horizontal Straight Punch" sounds like a reverse punch. What you describe as a reverse punch as "punching with the whole fist" doesn't make sense. Drop the name "Horizontal Straight Punch" and call it a reverse punch.
    • Three Knuckle Punching is basically what happens when you aim a vertical punch for the face while keeping your wrist straight.
    You are also leaving out a lot of punches that you can learn if you go to a class. For example:
    • Jab, and various versions of the jab (some people have a vertical jab, horizontal jab, or more of a backfist)
    • You mentioned Backfist, but there's different ways of doing backfists. There's outward backfists to the temple, and forward backfists to the nose.
    • You mentioned Hammerfist, which can be a sideways motion or a downward motion.
    • There's the gut punch or underpunch, which is done with the fist pointing up, at lower targets like the groin or solar plexus
    • Hooks and uppercuts, which you glossed over due to lack of training
    • Then you get into open hand-strikes and elbow strikes
    • I'm going to leave out the exotic fist punches
    Right now, you sound like someone who wants to learn to punch, and do so safely. This is good.

    However, you want to do this on your own without the oversight of someone who knows what they are doing. This is not good.

    Take some classes, you will learn a lot more there than you do here.
     
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  3. Rat

    Rat Blue Belt

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    By that i meant you are less likely to damage your wrist or something by doing it. Its negligible for the most part so we agree on that. More or less what works for you/the situation.

    From what i understood a reverse to be there is no rotational mechanism, how ever this could just be the one from the treatise i mainly base a reverse punch from rather than a Karate one per say. Horizontal from the belt in my perspective would be whats done in the TKD 4 directional punching as a example i know. Video of what i mean when i say reverse punch:


    Fair enough, mine are more just a lead hand what ever strike.

    I can a horizontal one pretty well, due to basically everywhere doing them and i am looking into classes to learn the other ones, thanks for reply.

    Also glancing mention, i left out open hands due to it possibly mis leading due to the title.
     
  4. pdg

    pdg Senior Master

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    You said you'd done 'some' TKD...

    I have to assume, from the statement I quoted, that it was very little TKD you've done because that's in no way the definition of 'reverse punch'.
     
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  5. Rat

    Rat Blue Belt

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    Fair enough, see the video i posted, thats what i meant when i used it. Googling it now, it likes like the one they use from the belt specifically, so it basically is a horizontal punch. excuse the terminology difference, is the better word for the one i am using a upside down punch then?
     
  6. pdg

    pdg Senior Master

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    Upset punch is one performed with the palm up.
     
  7. JR 137

    JR 137 Senior Master

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    Where I come from, reverse punch simply means a punch from your back foot side. Or perhaps a better way of saying it - when in your stance, if your right foot is back, a right hand punch is a reverse punch. If your left foot is back, a left punch is a reverse punch.

    And “upside down” punch, where your palm is up when you make contact is an “inverted fist strike” aka shita tsuki in Japanese.
     
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  8. JR 137

    JR 137 Senior Master

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    In an inverted fist strike, your wrist isn’t always straight. It’s typically bent upwards a bit right after contact. Typical close range Kyokushin punch to the abdomen right under the ribs. That wrist bend really digs in and just flat out sucks to get hit with. #41 is throwing it nicely here.
    5FB23F1C-3DB7-4618-A01F-11A8F8D22B80.jpeg
     
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  9. wab25

    wab25 Blue Belt

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    First off, I would highly recommend skribs advice to go take some classes.

    Lots of people like to compare the different arts and the way they do things. In this case, the power of their punches. I have read a number of scientific studies that attempt to quantify the effectiveness between the different styles. These studies did in fact find differences in power and speed and accuracy between different arts. But, I think this kind of thinking misses the boat entirely.

    Lets assume the style A hits with the most power, C with the least amount of power and B is right in between. Just looking at this, we should all start studying style A, because no one wants to learn the weak punches. However, we are missing the scale.

    If we take untrained people and measure their punches, then train them in different styles and remeasure... we find an important detail. Compared with an untrained person, style A increases their punching power by 301%, style B by 299% and style C by 297%. So, any style you take, will effectively give you about 300% increase in your punching power.

    What makes the most difference, is how much you train the style you chose. Even if you choose the style with the strongest punch, if you are not too interested in training it, your punch will probably end up being less powerful than if you had trained one of the other weaker punching styles, that you enjoyed training in. Being trained at all, is many times more beneficial than the differences in the power between the arts.

    Further, the effects of the punch are not only determined by the power, but also the target you hit and the direction you are hitting it. The effect is the whole reason you are training the punch to begin with.

    Now, the worst thing you could do, would be to make a checklist of all the punches you can find, and then go take a lesson or two for each one, trying to collect a bunch of punches. Each type of punch is effective, when set up correctly, and used within the correct strategy. When you punch (or make any attack) you leave openings in your defense. Without being good at the setups, and the strategy and knowing where to go from here... you will be quite easy to defeat.

    By picking a style, and learning that style, you will get the power, the speed the accuracy... but also the set up, the strategy, the tactics, and where to go next. These are all much more important than the difference in power between one style or the other.

    Again, pick a style you are interested in and train that style. Don't worry about whether its punches are the hardest. At the end of the day, which ever punching style you choose, will be vastly superior to your untrained punch. And by learning a style, you will have learned the vehicle to applying that punch effectively. (the hardest punch in the world means nothing, if you can't land it)
     
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  10. skribs

    skribs Master of Arts

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    Fair enough.

    But I'd categorize those as exceptions to the rule I posted, and the rule should be learned before the exceptions.
     
  11. skribs

    skribs Master of Arts

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    In my school "reverse punch" is a specific punch, contrasted in our basic punching curriculum with the "vertical punch" and "underpunch."

    The underpunch (at our school) is what @pdg calls "upset punch" and what @JR 137 calls "upside down punch" or "inverted fist strike". I've also heard it called "gut punch" or similar (kidney punch, liver punch) or "body blow".

    This is why I want to echo @wab25 - don't worry about getting a checklist of all the punches. It'll make your head explode trying to categorize the differences of underpunch vs. upset punch, when really they're just the same thing. Instead, learn an art, and your collection of techniques will expand from there.
     
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  12. pdg

    pdg Senior Master

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    Add "shovel punch" and "body uppercut" to that list then ;)
     
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  13. Rat

    Rat Blue Belt

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    Im more intrested in the differences of the punches rather than styles but it does influence how they do them. at best i would like to know how they did punching in the old styles compared to the new ones that kind of thing. Im also a man of compromise so would choose B. I did make this list to get a good comparison/pros and cons of many common punches going/the evolution of punching. (its working all ready)

    Funnily enough,i think i have under a thousand repetitions of horizontal punches(Forms,focus pads etc), yet i have managed to habit myself into vertical ones now. Im taking the advice i got from "dead or alive" by geoff thompson and going to learn to do one technique at least well with both my hands and then go from there. I just don't know if my go to would be a vertical or horizontal one, its one of those two i just need to find out which. As for finding a style, its a struggle for me, i cant say i enjoy doing many of them. Its more after effect i cant believe they would work kind of thing rather than a not enjoying doing it, best way to summarize something i dont know the extent of yet. Plus i have a limited selection to choose from which never helps. :p

    Thanks for the reply anyway, all of it has been noted.


    Dont tempt me.:p
     
  14. skribs

    skribs Master of Arts

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    Train under a qualified instructor or master and you will learn the differences between them a lot better than asking here.

    Don't worry about the style, worry that it's a good instructor. And remember that you won't learn the whole curriculum when you first start. We teach our white belts basically 6 different punches, and for a lot of them we don't worry about a lot of the details until green belt (because it's just too much to try to learn). As a black belt, you are expected to know at least three dozen different types of hand strikes. But you have to trust the process in order for it to work.

    You misunderstood. He was adding those to the list of different names for the same punch. Those are all the same punch.
     
  15. Rat

    Rat Blue Belt

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    I didnt even get that many kicks and i did TKD. I got straight punch, front kick, back kick, side kick and spinning as my intro moves.

    I do have a MMA to look at lined up alongside two Filipino style schools and im looking back at the TKD i did. Oh on that, who is the resident Arnis expert?
     
  16. skribs

    skribs Master of Arts

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    Different schools have different lesson plans, but often by the time you get to black belt you'll know what the school needs you to know.
     
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  17. pdg

    pdg Senior Master

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    So, for how long did you do TKD?
     
  18. Rat

    Rat Blue Belt

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    I think i have around 10-50 hours in one style and 3 in another. I dont keep a track record, but i am still a beginner in it and its made harder by me originally doing it twice a week to doing it once, month wise i think it was closer to a year. Not all at once either, i had periods of leave during this.
     
  19. pdg

    pdg Senior Master

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    No offence, but that doesn't really count as 'did'...

    That's unlikely to have got out of white belt.

    Let's put it this way, I've been going 3-4 times a week for nearly 2 1/2 years and got to 3rd kup, only not going when they're shut for holidays, and I don't really class myself as much more than a beginner.
     
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  20. Rat

    Rat Blue Belt

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    Im not any belt, school didnt hand out white belts and i didnt grade when i went. I have my reservations about doing that if i did/do go back anyway.
     

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