Gracie Breakdown on Catch Wrestling vs Bjj

[Hanzou]

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=EucIOqFgfMM

Interesting comparison between the 2 grappling styles.

I largely agree that catch is more geared towards larger people, while Bjj can be used effectively by a larger swath of the population.

i know some Catch fans are't happy about their comments.

 

[drop bear]

Yeah in the not happy crowd. Conditioning is not cheating.

Can't believe bjj used the rsbd argument.

 

[Chris Parker]

What RBSD argument?

 

[Hanzou]

Yeah in the not happy crowd. Conditioning is not cheating.

Can't believe bjj used the rsbd argument.

I wouldn't say its a rsbd argument. Its the argument that people of any size can utilize Bjj training, while catch wrestling tends to benefit much larger people.

Case in point, you wouldn't be able to use that winning Barnett submission on a larger person. A bigger person could pretty easily power out of it, and it would be difficult to achieve the necessary chest compression. On the other hand, there's several Bjj submissions that could be used by smaller people against bigger people.

 

[drop bear]

What RBSD argument?

That you don't have to be athletic to make fighting work. Provided you have the right system.

 

[drop bear]

I wouldn't say its a rsbd argument. Its the argument that people of any size can utilize Bjj training, while catch wrestling tends to benefit much larger people.

Case in point, you wouldn't be able to use that winning Barnett submission on a larger person. A bigger person could pretty easily power out of it, and it would be difficult to achieve the necessary chest compression. On the other hand, there's several Bjj submissions that could be used by smaller people against bigger people.

A bigger person can power out of a lot of submissions. Especially at an elite level. In fact let's turn this around what were these submissions that worked against a bigger guy? Josh Barnett for example.

 

[Hanzou]

A bigger person can power out of a lot of submissions. Especially at an elite level. In fact let's turn this around what were these submissions that worked against a bigger guy? Josh Barnett for example.

Rear Naked Choke. Rickson Gracie (5'10 176lbs) submitted Zulu Martins (6'4 220lbs) with that move twice in two Vale Tudo matches.

Pedro Sauer submitted a much larger muscle bound guy with an armbar.

Royce Gracie submitted Akebono with an Omoplata.

 

[Chris Parker]

That you don't have to be athletic to make fighting work. Provided you have the right system.

Okay… how is that an "RBSD" argument?

 

[Raymond]

Rear Naked Choke. Rickson Gracie (5'10 176lbs) submitted Zulu Martins (6'4 220lbs) with that move twice in two Vale Tudo matches.

Pedro Sauer submitted a much larger muscle bound guy with an armbar.

Royce Gracie submitted Akebono with an Omoplata.

Fedor Emmelianenko submitted Hong Man Choi with an armbar.

Anyway, I thought the commentary they gave was pretty biased.

 

[drop bear]

Okay… how is that an "RBSD" argument?

https://www.udemy.com/u/chrispizzo/

"Regardless of size speed or experience"

 

[drop bear]

Rear Naked Choke. Rickson Gracie (5'10 176lbs) submitted Zulu Martins (6'4 220lbs) with that move twice in two Vale Tudo matches.

Pedro Sauer submitted a much larger muscle bound guy with an armbar.

Royce Gracie submitted Akebono with an Omoplata.

Then why couldn't he submit Josh Barnet?

 

[Tony Dismukes]

In fairness, I don't think even Rener and Ryron would claim that size, strength, and athleticism don't matter when fighting in MMA or grappling competition against someone who knows all the same technique that you do. I think their sales pitch would be BJJ is uniquely suited (compared to other martial arts) for allowing a smaller, less athletic, but more technical individual to prevail against a larger, more athletic, but less technical opponent.

There's some foundation for that claim, but I think they're way overstating it. Not too surprising considering it's their family art. At least they show way more respect for other arts and other martial artists than their Dad used to.

 

[drop bear]

In fairness, I don't think even Rener and Ryron would claim that size, strength, and athleticism don't matter when fighting in MMA or grappling competition against someone who knows all the same technique that you do. I think their sales pitch would be BJJ is uniquely suited (compared to other martial arts) for allowing a smaller, less athletic, but more technical individual to prevail against a larger, more athletic, but less technical opponent.

There's some foundation for that claim, but I think they're way overstating it. Not too surprising considering it's their family art. At least they show way more respect for other arts and other martial artists than their Dad used to.

It seems a weird way to go. From a mma perspective you get toweled up by someone the first thing you do is go learn what they are learning. Which I can bet Josh Barnett did not overlook regarding bjj.

Technique Talk: Josh Barnett's pushing and pulling for catch wrestling's respect - MMA Fighting

 

[Hanzou]

Then why couldn't he submit Josh Barnet?

Because Josh Barnet is also a 2nd degree black belt in Bjj. Despite how he is currently marketing himself, he is not pure Catch.

 

[drop bear]

Because Josh Barnet is also a 2nd degree black belt in Bjj. Despite how he is currently marketing himself, he is not pure Catch.

Yeah bjj is good but it is really only suited to larger people. Look at Josh Barnet for example.

 

[Hanzou]

Yeah bjj is good but it is really only suited to larger people. Look at Josh Barnet for example.

All things being equal, Barnett's size advantage was the difference maker.

Like I said earlier, catch favors larger people. Barnett'ssubmission is a prime example.

 

[drop bear]

All things being equal, Barnett's size advantage was the difference maker.

Like I said earlier, catch favors larger people. Barnett'ssubmission is a prime example.

So now he is catch again?

 

[Chris Parker]

https://www.udemy.com/u/chrispizzo/

"Regardless of size speed or experience"

Er… okay… how is that an "RBSD" argument?

What I'm getting at is trying to gauge your understanding of exactly what RBSD is… so far, it's looking like you have an idea based in a complete lack of knowledge.

Oh, and you do realise that "Captain Chris" is nothing to do with RBSD, yeah? Really, the guys little more than a joke who lives in a world of his own fantasy… "trained with the last Japanese samurai"??? Some 130 years after the samurai ceased to exist??? Dude's a looney… and far from a "world leader in self defence"… bad, bad example…

 

[Hanzou]

So now he is catch again?

He never wasn't catch. My point earlier is that his extensive knowledge of Bjj, Catch, and his size advantage allowed him to win that match.

My issue with this new Catch craze is that people overlook the reasons why Catch isn't popular in the first place. Don't get me wrong, its a great style of grappling, and Bjj and Judo have a couple of roots in Catch, but it will never be nearly as popular as Bjj, Judo, or even the other forms of wrestling out there.

One of the reasons it won't be is because the advantage that size gives to a catch practitioner, even to the point that it effects the success of a hold.

 

[Tez3]

Whether or not it's particularly relevant to this debate I'd thought you'd like a look at this place, it has an old history, been through some hard times but is now going strong again.

The Snake Pit Wigan ? Home of Catch-as-Catch-Can Wrestling | www.snakepitwigan.com