MMA=Kickboxing and Wrestling? aka the demise of BJJ

Discussion in 'MMA' started by Freestyler777, May 16, 2007.

  1. Freestyler777

    Freestyler777 Blue Belt

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    I don't want to offend anyone, but it seems to me like the BJJ/submission aspect of MMA has been phased out, and now you have American Wrestlers, well-versed in kickboxing, slugging it out in standup or ground 'n' pounding. This is very different from what the Gracies developed in the early twentieth century. However, MMA is the original art of Gracie Jiu-jitsu, sport jiu-jitsu came later! So how do BJJ people think about the change of emphasis?

    Me being a former wrestler, I am quite happy that the sport that I trained in has a reputation for being the best 'style'. I always thought wrestling was a great sport.

    My question to you is, is BJJ dead? Now that everyone knows how not to get traingled or armlocked, has MMA been reduced to wrestlers who punch and kick?

    I'm not saying either art is bad, I just want to know other peoples' opinions. Me, I only watch UFC DVDs when they come out at blockbuster.
     
  2. Andrew Green

    Andrew Green Grandmaster

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    Matches still end in submissions, and as long as it is allowed submissions will continue to happen. BJJ I think will loose some influence, or evolve to fit the no-gi piece of MMA. Which it seems most clubs do, some offer no-gi nights, others have dropped the gi altogether.

    MMA is young, and different aspects are still being put together.

    But even now, just looking at the UFC, there are still some really good Submission guys floating around. I think that will continue, there will be some really good strikers, some really good wrestlers and some really good submission guys.
     
  3. Freestyler777

    Freestyler777 Blue Belt

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    There will always be an avenue for everyone to win, since there are so many ways to win in MMA.

    But it seems to me that wrestling is better than bjj, in the majority of cases, as a background for MMA.

    Wrestlers are simply very physically gifted, and have great conditioning. And anyone who does MMA now has to know how to kickbox too, but it seems like wrestling is the beginning.

    I could be wrong.
     
  4. Andrew Green

    Andrew Green Grandmaster

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    I wouldn't say that, I think Wrestling is probably the basis of MMA, it controls the range. Without wrestling you can't fight, but you also need striking or submissions, otherwise you get nicknamed "The blanket"

    That's nothing to do with wrestling directly, just the intensity of the training and the sort of people that do it. But I wouldn't say wrestling is any better or worse for that then other systems, just matters how you train them.


    Yup, and they also know submissions, even if they never use them in fights ;)
     
  5. Freestyler777

    Freestyler777 Blue Belt

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    :deadhorse
     
  6. Andrew Green

    Andrew Green Grandmaster

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    yup, submissions "die" every year or two, yet they never seem to go away ;)

    That horse is dead :lol:
     
  7. Tez3

    Tez3 Sr. Grandmaster

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    In this country we don't have the tradition of wrestling that you do so BJJ is the main and probably only influence on MMA here. I can think of one fighter here who was an Olympic wrestler but not for the UK. I don't know anyone who actually trains or has trained in wrestling. We have regional wrestling ie Cumbrian, Cornish and Scottish, Catch as Catch Can etc but no one from these goes into MMA and interest is confined to small villages usually.
    There is a generation of MMA fighters now, in this country at least, who are training MMA as a whole not starting like a lot of us did from one TMA then learning another and another until we could do the whole. These new fighters aren't ground or standup based they do it all equally well, their training is balanced and focused on MMA which I think we see as a whole rather than wrestling (or BJJ) with kickboxing or vice versa.
     
  8. Andrew Green

    Andrew Green Grandmaster

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    And that right there is the future of MMA. Guys training MMA from day one, crosstraining out, not in.
     
  9. Freestyler777

    Freestyler777 Blue Belt

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    Maybe the whole 'style' thing is outdated. Everyone knows everything now, but individuals will always use their individual strengths against their opponnent's area of relative weakness. Ex: a G n P guy takes down a striker, a striker refuses to go to the ground against a BJJ expert, a BJJ expert looking to feign a striking attack in order to get close enough to clinch, etc...

    Renzo Gracie said, "The most important, and least practiced part of a fight, is the takedown."

    I always think it is a victory for the sport of wrestling when a big name wrestler wins, such as Randy Couture, Matt Lindland, Matt Hughes, etc...

    But really MMA is one complete entity, maybe style is outdated.
     
  10. zDom

    zDom Senior Master

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    And I always think it is a victory for the sport of taekwondo when a kicker — any kicker, even with a sloppy roundhouse — knocks one of them out cold as they attempt a takedown ;)
     
  11. Tez3

    Tez3 Sr. Grandmaster

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    Why TKD when a kick wins? Most of our MMA fighters also do Muay Thai, in fact my club is off to Thailand later this year to train at Fairtex who luckily sponsor us but a great many other fighters also go to Thailand as well as clubs locally.
    We have a fair few fighters who come from a Judo background. Judo has been in this country for over a century and is still very popular.There are a lot of TKD clubs here too but the UK has always had a wide variety of TMAs to chose from, the most popular I think is probably Shotokan and Wado Ryu.
    For a long time over here now we haven't talked about the separate parts of MMA, we talk about it and train it as a whole. More and more fighters are now very good MMA fighters full stop.
    We are supposed to be having a UK TUF so perhaps you will get to see what I mean. The trails were supposed to be later this month but have been postponed. We haven't heard when they propose to have them, I do know however most of the fighters who plan to try out. Should be good if it comes off.
     
  12. Kenpojujitsu3

    Kenpojujitsu3 Master Black Belt

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    Vote Tallied: Post of the Week winner right here :)
     
  13. Kenpojujitsu3

    Kenpojujitsu3 Master Black Belt

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    I think the case was being made that MMA fighters use everything and aren't "just wrestlers". As soon as Couture, Lindland, Hughes, Coleman, Kerr, etc use. a kick or a sub they are not wrestling. So if someone does a shoot, a takedown and ground control and can call it just wrestling than any kick can be considered muay thai, TKD, Karate, etc. Personally I think Mark Coleman is an excellent Boxer....well Horizontal Boxing from the top that is :)
     
  14. Tez3

    Tez3 Sr. Grandmaster

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    I love the 'horizontal' boxing! The thing about this thread too is that it is talking about professional MMA, no one has mentioned it so I don't know if you also do amateur and semi pro MMA as we do? Amateur being no head shots whatsoever and semi pro being head shots standing only. This does change the dynamic of fights though they are no less skilful or good to watch.
    I've never watched a wrestling match ( I know tv wrestling doesn't count though I do rather enjoy it but shhh about that please!) so I don't know what wrestling as opposed to grappling/BJJ/Judo is. Everyone I know who does MMA trains the BJJ way for groundwork.
     
  15. Freestyler777

    Freestyler777 Blue Belt

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    Kenpojujitsu man has some valid insights. No one has won anything with 'just wrestling'. Everybody does everything now in MMA. Maybe it's a self fulfilling prophecy that wrestlers do well in MMA. They're good athletes. What if football players or hockey players or rugby players started training in MMA? They'd also dominate, not because of their 'sport' but because of their 'athleticism'.

    Wrestling is essentially about takedowns and pins. There's no striking, and in freestyle and Greco-Roman there is no submission holds. Sambo is considered the 3rd international style, because it is practiced all over the world, not just Russia where it was invented. Sambo is like wrestling and judo combined, but more towards the wrestling side than the classical judo side. However, in Sambo, armlocks and leglocks are allowed. In Judo, only strangles and armlocks are allowed. Leglocks are considered to dangerous, and they cause rheumatism later on in life.

    Don't mean to blame anyone, but england has a rich tradition of wrestling, shame on you for not knowing more about the sport. Just kidding:)
     
  16. Tez3

    Tez3 Sr. Grandmaster

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    Er excuse me! I did mention the regional wrestling :whip1: ! (I put that smilie in coz I luv it lol) It's just that the wrestlers keep it to themselves and don't do MMA! It's mostly in the small country places they do it. We don't have the thing of doing it in schools and colleges that you do, it's not a very high profile sport.

    http://www.cornishwrestling.co.uk/
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cumberland_and_Westmorland_wrestling
    http://www.wrestle.co.uk/

    Btw over here we have been told to call Sambo - 'Sombo' to be politically correct! My instructor is old style Judo (amongst other things) and knows very wicked leg and ankle locks, he says Judo was vicious in the old days ( about 20-30 years ago)
     
  17. tellner

    tellner Senior Master

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    It seems that the people who do really well are good enough at everything and spectacularly good at something. Except for a few freaks of nature you don't find MMA guys who are championship level at boxing and at kicking and at takedowns and at submissions and at ground boxing. They're competent at all of them, at least competent enough not to get snookered by the specialists, and have some game at which they shine.

    BJJ was the first, and it dominated for a while. Then people learned how the Gracies and their students fought and how to counter it. Something else is the hot thing right now. Soon it will be something else. Even within the submission wrestling world there are fads and trends. Some day whatever the Gracies are doing will be more popular as they modify what they do to adapt to the changing conditions of the ring. As far as that goes, Gracie Ju Jitsu is[/] a form of submission wrestling. So is Judo. So are a lot of JJJ styles.
     
  18. Odin

    Odin 2nd Black Belt

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    MMA runs in an almost full cycle a couple of years ago all the Pride and UFC champions were mainly grapplers now the strikers are coming through as MMA stand up is improving but i have all the faith in the world that come next year it will turn back around again.

    BTW tell Big nog, BJ penn and Matt Serra that BJJ is dead.
     
  19. Odin

    Odin 2nd Black Belt

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    I personally thought that was a silly post.
     
  20. Kenpojujitsu3

    Kenpojujitsu3 Master Black Belt

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    To a large degree it was meant to point of something rather silly. Good pick up.123
     

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