Got GUILT?

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Talk' started by Jenna, Jul 13, 2006.

  1. Brandon Fisher

    Brandon Fisher Master Black Belt

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    I get flashbacks sometimes from 3 ordeals I walked away from luckily. I can't say that for 2 of them the other I was very lucky to put it mildly.
     
  2. Cirdan

    Cirdan Senior Master

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    The situation described certainly justifies the use of force, even extreme, so logically I shouldn`t feel any guilt. However never having killed anybody I really can`t tell what effect such an experience would have on me. I might feel sadness, anger, despair, or even joy at having survived. I think that unless you are a psycopath it is human nature to be deeply affected by this.
     
  3. MA-Caver

    MA-Caver Sr. Grandmaster

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    Twice in my life I could've taken the life of another... but with-held both times because it was in my power to do so (moment of choice). I don't recall feeling guilty because of what could've been.
    Another time I dealt a devastating blow to one's wind-pipe and walked away... didn't feel bad about that either... don't even know the outcome but speculate that he survived.

    In short... the answer is No under those circumstances.
    Doped up maniac that probably isn't fully aware of what they're doing isn't high on my sympathetic list. From the description of the scenario no amount of reasoning would've worked at all... thus he would've been an danger to society all-around even if we got clean away without any harm to the "three of us".

    I doubt that I would even meet his mother. But even if I did... it would depend upon how the mother's attitude towards me would be. Some mothers know that their "babies" have gone bad and regret it. Others entrench themselves in denial and get angry at the rest of the world and the one who killed them... instead of accepting the fact that she might've not been that good of a momma like she thought she was.
    Either way... I would say "I'm sorry that it had to happen that way." But I wouldn't say "I'm sorry I killed your boy." That implies guilt... which I would not have... under those circumstances.
     
  4. pstarr

    pstarr Master Black Belt

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    No, none at all. His demise is the result of his own actions. Unfortunate, yes. Guilt, nope.
     
  5. Jonathan Randall

    Jonathan Randall Senior Master

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    Shaolinwind, you're the man. :asian:

    Great reminder to us all that, even when forced to it, actions have consequences and the person of character doesn't speak casually of "killin'".
     
  6. Kensai

    Kensai Black Belt

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    Agreed. Regret that it happened at all, yes. Guilt for having defended myself, and more importantly, loved one? No.

    Actually, I'm talking crap. I served in the 2nd Gulf, and had a mate of mine killed. It was a blue on blue kill, and the weapons used to kill him where weapons that I had prepped and loaded onto the helos going ashore. Although I didn't pull that particular trigger, I was part of the cycle that led to his death. That has occured to me, and has kept me awake on more nights that I can remember. For those that don't think they'd experience any emotions, guilt or otherwise, you couldn't be human and not have them, regardless of how cold, hard, emotionless you think you are. You may not experience guilt as others may recognise it, but I promise you, there would be something in your mind, days, weeks, months or even years after it happened it would catch up with you...
     
  7. Andy Moynihan

    Andy Moynihan Senior Master

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    Sorrow that this person forced me to the act, yes. But that's all.

    Mercy to the wolf is cruelty to the sheep. *shrug*
     
  8. MartialIntent

    MartialIntent Black Belt

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    HS, having never been in this situation I *think* I'd agree. Lemme ask though does this imply - for everyone who claims they'd feel no guilt - that they're heartless and cold, period?

    What I mean is, imagine you killed someone in an auto accident, would you feel guilty about that? I'd guess probably yes, therefore how can this sense of guilt be so easily switched off for the scenario outlined in Jenna's original post?

    Respects!
     
  9. MJS

    MJS Administrator Staff Member

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    Another great thought provoking discussion Jenna!:ultracool

    It seems that there was no chance to talk him down or leave the area due to the fact that this is all unfolding very quick. That being said, you're faced with deadly force, so in turn we have to adjust our use of force accordingly. Would I feel guilty at that moment? No. Would I feel any remorse later on? Most likely, once things were over.

    I'm sure after the fact, there will be those questions. "Was there something I could've done differently?" "Could've I been more cautious with my defense, making sure he was subdued but didn't get fatally injured in the process?" The list can go on and on.

    Mike
     
  10. MJS

    MJS Administrator Staff Member

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    I'd say no, unless we completely have no regard for human life, regardless of the situation. If someone pushes us, I don't feel that we should take the persons life.


    If I was drunk, if I was driving like a complete fool, again, after the fact, things would most likely 'sink in' and reality would have to be faced as to what happened. If I'm minding my own business, driving normally, and someone on the opposite side of the street who's driving crazy causes the accident, sure I'd be sad that they died, but I would not let myself take the blame due to the fact that I was not the cause of it.

    I'm watching the news right now. There was a guy on a motorcycle who got killed because he passed a car and collided with an oncoming car in the other lane. I wasn't there so I don't know if the oncoming car swerved, etc. but regardless, that person did not tell the motorcycle driver to pass that car. It was his own reckless driving that caused that.

    Mike
     
  11. painstain

    painstain Green Belt

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    if he had children, yes regardless of the attack on me, knowing drugs can sway the mind. if he has no kids, yes because he may have had an oppertunity tomarrow to straighten his life up but won't get it now.
    also yes because people make mistakes and they aren't worth dying for.
    also i would be angry at the individual for putting me in such a possition.

    with respect,
    painstain
     
  12. Jenna

    Jenna Senior Master

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    Hey MT :) you say no guilt.. and yes to attribute blame and fault is a chicken and egg situation.. yes the attacker initiated where you had no mind to fight but still you DID respond in kind though it was out of necessity.. however the fact that you responded is THE only relevant fact because that ultimately put him in the ground.. he STARTED it certainly and unprovoked but you finished it purposefully or not.. so my question to you is that although by all contemporary parameters for who deserves what.. he definitely deserved it.. but still are you steadfast that you would feel no guilt at all?

    thank you my helpful friend :)

    Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
    Jenna
     
  13. CuongNhuka

    CuongNhuka Senior Master

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    violence comes with guilt in all but the most de-humanized
     
  14. Jenna

    Jenna Senior Master

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    wow.. I am amazed truly that you have been taken right to the terminal end of this line my friend and thank you for sharing this.. and can I ask please if it is not tactless of me.. would you be inclined to ask for forgiveness for a death that occurred at your hands or do you not believe forgiveness is required in such a situation as this where you were simply responding to a mortal threat on yourself or others you care for..

    Thank you :)

    Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
    Jenna
     
  15. Jenna

    Jenna Senior Master

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    NO part of you feels guilty bout this? Does that mean in this situation you are remorseless? And if so is there any part of your conscience that would say to you that you SHOULD feel pangs of guilt..

    Sorry.. what I mean is are your feelings of guilt suppressed or do they just never actually occur at all.. sorry if I am mixed up in my questions maybe this makes a little sense..

    Thank you my friend :)

    Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
    Jenna
     
  16. JBrainard

    JBrainard Senior Master

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    My response as well.
     
  17. Grenadier

    Grenadier Administrator Staff Member

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    I think that there's a difference between the regret of having to take another life in a justified manner, versus feeling guilty about having done something wrong.

    It's not wrong to take someone's life if the situation justifies it. After all, some attackers will keep coming after you until they are put down, and in those cases, you have to put them down, or else they'll kill you, and possibly your associates. In those cases, the person who legitimately defended himself should get over it, and accept the fact that he saved innocent lives.

    Someone can try to argue "But he (the criminal) was on drugs! He wasn't himself!" but the fact still remains, that the offender had a chance to not use drugs, or to get help in the first place. If anything, the perpetrator had the greater responsibility to behave in a non-criminal manner, and failed.
     
  18. Rich Parsons

    Rich Parsons A Student of Martial Arts

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    I would have to say yes, I would feel guilt.

    As stated below:
    I have put in the past many in the hospital. One such, was dropped on the ground and he was not breathing. When I turned and looked and my mind was faster then my conscious mind, and I knew he was not alive or soon to be dead, I wanted to vomit. A second before when I turned I was ready to smash his head into the pavement. Those emotions happened instantly, I was upset and guilty I had taken a life.

    I did not vomit. I looked at his body and tried to keep his spine as straight as possible and move it so his throat was not as constricted. He still did nto breath. I took a pen from my pocket (* People laugh for still today 20 years later I carry a pen with me. *) and pried his mouth open and saw that his tongue was in the back of his throat. I used the pen while holding his jaw to move his tongue. He began to breath instantly. This all happened real fast for I had yelled for someone to call an ambulance before I started. And his friends were yelling and running at me telling me that I had done enough and to leave him alone. By the time they covered the distance he was breathing.

    I told them to leave him alone and not to move him. They picked him up and his head rolled. I was so afraid he had broken his neck as well. A few minutes and he is almost conscious and aware and the ambulance is there getting him ready for the trip the hospital. They were upset he had been moved. I explained I did not move him other then discribed above. The police and EMT's stated I had saved his life.

    I would have spent the night in jail if not for a couple of things. The major being that customers heard me saying I did not want to fight and that he should just leave. (* I worked there. *) I also pressed charges for assault as he started it. So it was a mutual combative situation. Mutual in that he started it and I defended myself and ended it. The guy in going to hospital was already pressing charges for of course the police talked to him first. :(

    A few weeks later after he was out of the hospital and also feeling better, the guy I put out and into the hospital stopped by. He apologized and thanked me for saving his life from swallowing his tongue. So I got lucky in this case.
     
  19. evenflow1121

    evenflow1121 2nd Black Belt

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    Good question, I think you should ask for forgiveness at least I would. I dont know why someone would want to hurt me or a person I am with, but I guess that in itself is the million and one dollar question for any victim out there. Sure some people deserve a good lashing every now and then, but the point is we are all human beings, we all screw up. I mean if someone was to come at me with a knife or a gun or what not and I was able to defend myself, I could eventually forgive that person, I would not want to live my life hating anyone. If I were to kill someone well I guess in my opinion I have not given this person a chance to perhaps better himself or herself one day, moreover, I have probably gone further than I had to, which should be to incapacitate or render the assailant defenseless so no one gets hurt. If I kill the guy, I would ask for forgiveness.
     
  20. tradrockrat

    tradrockrat 2nd Black Belt

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    Guilt - No

    Sad - Yes

    Sleep - Like a baby

    This situation - and others like it - are all things I prepared for long ago. The death would most certainly affect me and change me, but not out of guilt.123
     

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