Got GUILT?

[kodo]

I'm sure that I would feel guilty. However, Paul in the Bible said that we may fight for rightiousness sake.

 

[MA-Caver]

Shaolinwind, you're the man. :asian:

Great reminder to us all that, even when forced to it, actions have consequences and the person of character doesn't speak casually of "killin'".

At the risk of sounding defensive... I don't speak casually of killin' either but under those circumstances and from Jenna's description:

Your attacker though, is out cold. It is only then you see the oozing darkness of his blood against the grey pavement and realise what has happened.

It was regretable that the attacker died from his wounds (which might've been sustained from hitting his head on the sidewalk/concrete... autopsy will say for sure). Either way I caused him to fall to the ground and thus his head hit the ground... bla bla bla.
Regrets but not guilt.

From Dictionary.com
re·grets
v. tr.
1. To feel sorry, disappointed, or distressed about.
2. To remember with a feeling of loss or sorrow; mourn.

guilt
n.
1. The fact of being responsible for the commission of an offense. See Synonyms at blame.
2. Law. Culpability for a crime or lesser breach of regulations that carries a legal penalty.

 

[elder999]

Q: Is guilt over an emotion you would feel at this point?

Based on experience, I'd probably feel somewhat guilty. If the cops showed up at breakfast to tell me about it, I'd probably be guilty right up until my second beer with lunch...then I'd forget about it-it's in the category of "stuff happens," or karma-people who accost people with knives are risking getting deaded.

 

[green meanie]

NO part of you feels guilty bout this? Does that mean in this situation you are remorseless? And if so is there any part of your conscience that would say to you that you SHOULD feel pangs of guilt..

Sorry.. what I mean is are your feelings of guilt suppressed or do they just never actually occur at all.. sorry if I am mixed up in my questions maybe this makes a little sense..

Thank you my friend

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna

It wouldn't occur at all. I wouldn't feel guilty over this. I would only be concerned with the legal ramifications of what I had done. So long as there were no charges brought against me and I was considered legally within my rights I wouldn't have a problem with it.

 

[green meanie]

violence comes with guilt in all but the most de-humanized

Maybe I'm wrong, and maybe there's just something wrong with me for not feeling guilty over this. I'm open to that possibilty. But maybe, just maybe, you might be painting with a rather broad brush when you make a statement like that. No offense. :asian:

 

[DeLamar.J]

If someone is making a threat on my life with a weapon, they deserve to die. I am a very compassionate person until certain lines are crossed, then I turn sadistic. I would feel absolute pleasure in taking that scumbags life. By killing people like that you are saving the life of another innocent person. And his next victim may not be capable of defending themselves, so you must save the next victim by making sure he does not get the chance again.
Even though the man was on drugs, he still chose to take the drugs, and once you take that path you are a time bomb. There is a reason certain drugs are illegal, and everyone know even legal drugs can be abused.

 

[Xue Sheng]

In my opinion it is not a yes/no answer. I have never taken a life and I hope I never do so saying yes or no is baseless.

But based on the scenario you put forth it appears that the choice was him or my partner. If it is him I am going to feel much better than if it was my partner.

Will I feel guilty over taking a life, I do not know nor do I want to find out.

 

[Shaolinwind]

Someone can try to argue "But he (the criminal) was on drugs! He wasn't himself!"

Slight subject change but I believe when on drugs/alcohol you are even MORE yourself. "Within drink lies truth."

 

[Don Roley]

There is a book called "On Killing" by a guy named Grossman. I know Sheshulsa has read it. I reccomend it to all martial artists and I think everyone in this thread should try to read it.

Grossman gives quite a few cases and studies of people who clearly were forced into killing or dying who felt guit for decades after the events.

I contend that no one really knows what it is like to feel after killing someone unless they have been there. From what Grossman writes, people do not react logically to the act of killing. If someone tries to kill you and you have to kill them instead it is logical that you should not feel guilt. And yet so many people have.

In short, I do not see how anyone can say with certainty that they would not feel guilt if they have not been through that experience.

 

[green meanie]

I do not see how anyone can say with certainty that they would not feel guilt if they have not been through that experience.

Agreed. :asian:

 

[Jenna]

Slight subject change but I believe when on drugs/alcohol you are even MORE yourself. "Within drink lies truth."

in vino veritas perhaps my friend and yes there is also this truth or should I say tendency towards uninhibited with todays fashionable recreational substances.. as for the major Class A?? I do not know myself..

But yes I guess we should "trust" the intentions of someone drunk or hopped up perhaps as being faithful to how they are acting.. tho while their intentions are transparent their actual methods would tend not to be and would be largely unpredictable..

Thank you for this

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna

 

[Jenna]

I contend that no one really knows what it is like to feel after killing someone unless they have been there. From what Grossman writes, people do not react logically to the act of killing. If someone tries to kill you and you have to kill them instead it is logical that you should not feel guilt. And yet so many people have.

This is true certainly Roley-san.. though for most of us.. hypotheticals are closest we will come.. and giving our ENVISAGED reaction by anecdote analogy and metaphor I believe can be great aids to understanding.. If I had sought the opinions of hardened criminals I am confident I would know exactly where to look and but that is not the purpose of my asking.. this is simply one question dressed as another.. but thank you sincerely for providing input and a reading recommendation I am grateful

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna

 

[Martial Tucker]

Hey MT you say no guilt.. and yes to attribute blame and fault is a chicken and egg situation.. yes the attacker initiated where you had no mind to fight but still you DID respond in kind though it was out of necessity.. however the fact that you responded is THE only relevant fact because that ultimately put him in the ground.. he STARTED it certainly and unprovoked but you finished it purposefully or not.. so my question to you is that although by all contemporary parameters for who deserves what.. he definitely deserved it.. but still are you steadfast that you would feel no guilt at all?

thank you my helpful friend

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna

Jenna, if I really think about it.......the only answer is: "I don't know".
It's easy to say how you THINK you would react to a certain scenario,
but unless you've actually experienced that scenario, you'll never really know. Thankfully, I've never had to kill anyone, so I don't REALLY know
how I would react. I do know that it would bother and sadden me for awhile that I killed someone, even in self defense. But, given my personality
which is on the logical/analytical side, I'm fairly sure that after the initial shock wore off, I would rationalize it as a "him or me" decision of survival that was forced upon me by someone clearly trying to kill me. I suppose it would always be in the back of my mind that I had killed another human being, but I don't THINK I would feel guilt (read: feel like I had done something wrong, or immoral).

When I was in my 20's, I was a bouncer at a pretty rough bar. We had several fights it seemed, every weekend. While I always tried to be a peacemaker, there were a few situations where I had to injure someone pretty badly, to the point of their requiring hospitalization, to regain control
of a situation. Regardless of the fact that those people "asked for" and deserved what they got, I always felt bad afterwards about hurting another human being. But I never felt "guilty", as if I had done anything to violate my personal moral code.

That's about as close to your question as I can get. I would be interested to hear from any LEO's or ex-military people on this forum who HAVE had to kill someone in the line of duty to get their perspective on "guilt vs. survival"


MT

 

[DeLamar.J]

I think that there's a difference between the regret of having to take another life in a justified manner, versus feeling guilty about having done something wrong.

It's not wrong to take someone's life if the situation justifies it. After all, some attackers will keep coming after you until they are put down, and in those cases, you have to put them down, or else they'll kill you, and possibly your associates. In those cases, the person who legitimately defended himself should get over it, and accept the fact that he saved innocent lives.

Someone can try to argue "But he (the criminal) was on drugs! He wasn't himself!" but the fact still remains, that the offender had a chance to not use drugs, or to get help in the first place. If anything, the perpetrator had the greater responsibility to behave in a non-criminal manner, and failed.

I agree. I also feel that it is our responsibility to take these types of people out for good to prevent other innocent's from being harmed in the future. This goes much deeper than just the guilt you will feel.
How would you FEEL, when this man robbed, raped, and killed someone the next day, when you could have prevented it by relieving him of his wretched existence the day before. It is our duty as martial artists to protect the innocent.
Hypothetical situation here..... The criminal pulls out his weapon and is trying to rob you, as you are taking care of the situation this is what need's to be on your mind.... (It is unfortunate that I have to resort to taking life, but I will be saving others who do not have the same training as me, the world will be a safer place after I have done what need's to be done, thank you sir, for allowing me a chance to make the world a better place, by saving your future vicitms from you) Also, when your relaxed you will perform much better. When you start thinking about the big picture instead of just your own life, your martial arts will be more effective. When your fighting, don't think about saving yourself, think about all of the innocent people you are helping.
If someone attacks your child, all sense of self is removed and you will react like a true warrior.

 

[elder999]

.

I contend that no one really knows what it is like to feel after killing someone unless they have been there. From what Grossman writes, people do not react logically to the act of killing. If someone tries to kill you and you have to kill them instead it is logical that you should not feel guilt. And yet so many people have.

First Don, I'd direct you, and everyone else to this post

Your recommendation of Col. Grossman's book is to be commended itself, Don. It's interesting to me how much controversy this book has caused in certain communities, and how people can embrace one section and have complete contempt-not just disagreement-with others. People variously disagree with what he has to say about military firing/killing and video games, but just love the whole "Wolf and Sheepdogs" thing.

Interestingly though, the same section of the book you are referring to does make mention to a percentage of the population that won't feel "guilt" (or whatever we're going to call it) over having taken life. I'll admit, I've never felt any particular rush over killing livestock, or even from hunting, and I was raised to have a certain reverence for life, especially under circumstances like slaughtering and hunting,but the one thing I regret most about that day in the subway is finding that out about myself-that I would feel little in the way of guilt or regret from circumstances like those. I'd have been better off without that knowledge, I think-I didn't need to know, and I certainly wouldn't have chosen to know-that kid took that choice, and my ignorance, away from me, though, when he chose to cut me.

While what you say about the logic of the situation-that people have a hard time rationally accepting that what happened was necessary, or not their fault, I didn't have that issue at all, for the most part. Oddly, though, to this day I still go through the "what ifs" of trying to prevent my first wife's drowning, and, while I objectively realize it wasn't my fault, and there was nothing I could have done to prevent it-short of staying home, of course-I still feel guilty.

People are such odd creatures....

And sorry, Jenna, your question deserved a much more measured response from me, but I was having one of those days at work where I just want to kill someone, and didn't really have time to answer more completely. While I was being glib, I was also being truthful-I wouldn't feel much guilt at all-though, getting back ot the original hypothetical situation of the question, it isn't likely that it would happen at all to us, these days.

 

[fireman00]

I would feel very bad about taking another person's life; perhaps with some assistance they may have been able to turn their life around.

However; selfpreservation and the safety/ health of some that I would consider friend, family or even an innocent passer-by would take presidence over taking the life of an attacker.

So no guilt.

 

[Dark]

Weeks later, the police are happy and pursue no charges. Your partner got a few stitches for a flesh wound but it is apparent you have saved them from potentially much much worse. But your attacker well.. dead on the spot from cerebral haemhorraging. Though he was on heroin and weakened considerably by it.. it was haemhorraging incurred from the injury sustained from YOU while you defended yourself and your partner that was cause of his death..

Q: Is guilt over an emotion you would feel at this point?

Well that kinds a complicated question, I'd like to say no because I was defending myself but then again I'm ot the hardest person ir most "thick skinned" guy in the world. Me and my one of my old sensei was discussing my lack of heartlessness in a fight when we where shooting pool last night.

The sad reality is I've never reached that numb point where I could hurt others and walk away un-effected. So yes I would regret it but then again I have allot of regrets I can say I wouldn't let regret stop my from getting on with my life...

 

[kenpo0324]

Yes, I would feel guilty. I may had done what was necessary to protect myself and my companion, but I also have a strong aversion to physically harming another. Taking a human life would be the ultimate last resort. No way I could come out of that experience without having it affect me emotionally and psychologically.

I agree.

 

[Hand Sword]

HS, having never been in this situation I *think* I'd agree. Lemme ask though does this imply - for everyone who claims they'd feel no guilt - that they're heartless and cold, period?

What I mean is, imagine you killed someone in an auto accident, would you feel guilty about that? I'd guess probably yes, therefore how can this sense of guilt be so easily switched off for the scenario outlined in Jenna's original post?

Respects!

No, they aren't cold and heartless period. If it was an auto accident, yes, I would feel guilty. But, I think the comparison is apples and oranges.
Tough one to answer though, in terms of putting it into words. (especially for me) Speaking for myself, for the original situation, I'd be protecting a loved one from a nasty predator. In self defense terms, you have to take them out in order to obtain safety. I would regret the incident, but, wouldn't feel sympathy for the assailant. As I said, once the charges cleared, I would feel relieved.

 

[Haze]

Guilt, no. I did what I had to do. I would feel some sorrow knowing that a life was taken but I would not think I would call it guilt. I would feel great guilt if I had done nothing and my partner had been killed.