Goldman charged with fraud

Discussion in 'The Study' started by Ramirez, Apr 17, 2010.

  1. Ramirez

    Ramirez Black Belt

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    [URL="http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/goldman-fraud-charges-cast-shadow-over-wall-street/article1537813" ] Goldman fraud charges[/URL]

    some thoughts, if true, then I see a massive class action lawsuit against Goldman, did anyone here get burned?

    2) WTF? How is it one Wall Street firm getting charged with fraud can send the markets down into the red like happened yesterday? If they are so influential on the markets they should be broken up.

    3) with all those ex Goldman e'ees in Washington, I really wonder if anything will come of this.
     
  2. stephen

    stephen Purple Belt

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    I'm fairly sure that these were not 'investments' that the average person was involved in.

    I think a lot of the downturn is less related to simply Goldman's case and more related to a concern about 'inappropriate' future regulation risks as well as sympathetic moves in other financial stocks due to worry about similar action being taken against them.
     
  3. kaizasosei

    kaizasosei Master Black Belt

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    That is what seems to be the problem with the system, imho. Interests are far too scattered for it to work. Governement works on a national level basically, but these enterprises are what constitute global networks that more or less follow their own interests.
    You have people complaining about government and the system, but there is no real separating oneself from the system and aggression doesn't usually achieve anything than poisoning the surroundings and confusing further. You have people trying to get or salvage as much as they can.
    But ultimately, those corporate higherups are in bed with the government. When the people with the cash complain about the government,if even, they do it in a very different way-

    Because the government is more of a static system in my eyes, whereas the economy is moving and a direct result of peoples actions. On one hand you could say that people do whatever the government decides, but on the other hand, the government also is able to be influenced. But it's not the wining alone. It's the connection between the government and the -money people- like a horse and carriage. Also, from what i understand with the treasury issuing bonds with bad rates and people still go for it because they must.

    I don't like to complain much, but it does seem to me like there is a heavy unfairness factor. Life's tough, get a helmet-ok-but in this day and age. With the amount of wealth and knowledge that mankind has amassed...i sortof dont get it. It's like, those who know how the world works-stocks,bonds-property,etc- make big cash and it's awesome. But those who know nothing about this world often have great challenges just getting by. Ok, again, c'est la vie. But is it really? I mean, what if we simply handed everyone guns and told them that all they need to do was steal, rob or trick others. Then the world would work that way, but it doesn't make it right. I'm thinking it's all a bit out of balance.. probably because the big ones are fighting for nations, land and security of paper while the little joe is busting his *** to cover his family.

    Where HAS all the money gone? Well, the more you have the more it costs. And the money likes it that way. Actually the single most powerful action would be to somehow refute the system of excessive money hording alltogether. See that at some point, it weighs you down. Just me trying to apply some logic, but a friend of mine told me that the system that exists is in effect because it works best. -

    Because money makes people work and be productive, that's the idea. But it also makes them spend on all kinds of ********, and also makes others create 'work' out of ********. Brilliant as it is sad and disgusting.
    But there's that rule, no money no funny. makes the world go round-. ? nuts

    I'd rather buy a piece of wood in the middle ages from someone that claims it was the wood from jesus cross-than believe in much of the madness of the world. Have better luck convincing me that stuffed platapus with wings was the last of its kind.

    j
     
  4. Makalakumu

    Makalakumu Gonzo Karate Apocalypse

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    http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2009/11/01/77791/how-goldman-secretly-bet-on-the.html

    McClatchy Newspapers did a five part investigative series where they basically show that GS was in on the whole gigantic fraud from the very beginning. This could just be the tip of the iceberg.

    Or it could be just an excuse for the government to lock up all of the documents under some kind of national security clause. Don't be surprised if that is what happens and that is all this was meant to do.

    Somehow, I don't think we will suddenly blow the lid off of trillions in fraud with an action like this.
     
  5. stephen

    stephen Purple Belt

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    Things like this are always more complicated than journalists understand.

    Now, I think there's a reasonable chance that there was some fraud going on, but it's not going to be of the character that the media and the average joe thinks it is.

    Things like this :

    Show that the people writing the article don't really understand what they're talking about. So the rest becomes suspect as well. The use of scare quotes is especially telling.



    This sort of stuff:

    Is where the real fraud might be.



    People are focusing on which 'bets' made money as their barometer of how morally right or wrong Goldman and it's traders were. But, really that's totally unrelated due to some of the complexities of the financial markets.


    Recently the industry I work in has become a common subject of financial news sources, I then realized that these people really, really, don't know what they're talking about. I was shocked at how clueless the media was. I wouldn't trust any of these sources. Especially those that pander to 'common sense' as usually sense which was evolved to help our ancestors in the hunter-gatherer savanna is not actually equipped to understand mortgage default swaps.
     
  6. Makalakumu

    Makalakumu Gonzo Karate Apocalypse

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    I agree, I think it's worse then the media will report. Essentially, we have a collusion between the the government, the ratings agencies, the multinational banks, and the various organizations that manage piles of money.

    Essentially, they created a shell game where (worthless) products of rated value were traded for investments of real value. Then, these products were transferred to the taxpayer. The "criminals" made money on both sides of the deal.

    When Tiny Tim Geithner was questioned about all this, his response was, "It was legal."
     
  7. Makalakumu

    Makalakumu Gonzo Karate Apocalypse

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  8. Ramirez

    Ramirez Black Belt

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    okay so explain, the allegations seem fairly straightforward, Goldman sold securities that they intended to fail so Paulson could collect on the CDS'. I wouldn't doubt Goldman also took out credit default swaps on the securities themselves.

    they can call it an exercise in risk management but it sure seems suspect to me.
     
  9. Makalakumu

    Makalakumu Gonzo Karate Apocalypse

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    The thing to watch here are the numbers. If its less then a trillion dollars its a cover up sham investigation. The media is hyping new regulations. Beware of the problem action solution cycle where a little tiny price of this fraud is reveiled and it is used to put regulations that make even worse fraud possible. This is part and parcel of bow the corporate media manipulates the general public.
     
  10. Ramirez

    Ramirez Black Belt

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    Stephen, I am just getting sick and tired of this bait and switch game, when regulations are pending the banking sector (not all mostly the investment banks) , say that no one can really understand their complex business except them (as you have tried to say in this thread), so really just leave it to the experts.

    Then when it all goes to hell, guys like Fuld show up in front of Congress and say the business is just so complex that he really couldn't see the risks give me a pass on wiping out trillions in pension savings.


    So which is it ?
     
  11. dancingalone

    dancingalone Grandmaster

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    Most US investors were impacted in some fashion through exposure in their 401(k), IRA, or pension plans. While they probably did not buy these credit swaps directly, their investment plans probably participated to some extent.
     
  12. CoryKS

    CoryKS Senior Master

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    The stock market is like a flock of birds and when something happens to one bird the rest freak out. A lot of people aren't investors in the true sense of the word, they are speculators. They don't research the companies they buy and they aren't interested in long-term ownership. They just want to see the little numbers go up. So when something bad happens, they panic sell before the little number goes too far down.

    And then the stock goes on sale and you buy. [​IMG]
     
  13. CanuckMA

    CanuckMA Master of Arts

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    The stock market has no relantionship to the real world.

    Remember when MCI, or whatever they were called at the time, filed for Chapter 11 after end of trading on a Friday? their stock actually opened UP on Monday morning.

    Recently, RIM anounced a 37% increase in PROFIT. but because the gross income and number of handset sold did not meet some 'analyst' expectation, the stock dropped. Maybe I'm just dense, but I always thought that the goal of a company is profit.
     
  14. blindsage

    blindsage Master of Arts

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    There is no investment in the stock market, it is all speculation.

    Is it really a wonder that the SEC wasn't doing it's job when the Bush administration cut it's budget by 3/4s during it's term?

    What I don't understand is why I don't hear anything about the SEC or anyone else going after the ratings agencies. G&S is guilty of fraud but Standard and Poor's isn't? GTFOH!123
     

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