Fat

[bluekey88]

You're opinions about addicition just don't hold water or hold up to the research. Addicition isn't about mental weakness...addicition is not really a choice. A person can be discipplined in many areas if life...but somewhere in the neurochemical makeup is this prediliction to a certain behavior. It may be dirnking, could be using certian drugs, could be gambling, eating...whatever. It sites there lurking. When presented with the addicitve stimulus, your brain sabotages you. Your 'willpower' goes right out the window....you're hooked.

Here's the thing....you don't know what that hook is until you've been exposed to it. An alcoholic who never is exposed to alcohol will not manifest the addicittion...but have a drink or two and it's game over. Conversely, there are plenty of stories of soldiers in the Vietnam era who turned to heroine in times of extreme stress...became physically addicted....had to go through detoix and never touched the stuff again once back in the states. Plenty of others spent their lives chasing the dragon as it were.

With things like eating, shopping, etc. They are even more insidioous becasue, unlike drugs or alcohol, one needs to eat and shop, etc to get through day to day life. One has the unenviable task to learn to manage the addicitve stimulus rather than just avoid it all together. It takes more than the usual amount of "willpower" to do something...most people (soldier or no) are simply not up to the task. It takes a life time of hard trials and persistence to make any headway.

To those who have not had to struggle with any sort of addicition, thank your lucky stars that you've been so lucky. To those of you have are struggling...know that some of us respect your strength and are silently pulling for you.

Peace,
Erik

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Outstanding post, Bill. Glad you could participate. Its always good to have people contribute somethings usefull to the discussion apart from declarations.

By the way.


I am right.

See, that was usefull. Notice how I supported my position? Awesome, wasn't it?

If you think I'm wrong, demonstrate it. My experiences the I've had have shown me otherwise. But please enlighten me. Just attempt to elucidate you position, cause you see, you simply saying I'm wrong doesn't make me so any more than my counter point makes me right.

This being a discussion board, try discussing the matter.

Mark

Not this time. Your attitude makes my skin crawl, and I need to go out and get some sunshine. I would never want to be in your head with you, it appears be a very ugly place. Sorry, but although we've had cordial conversation, your recent statements make me sick to my stomach. I'm truly revolted.

 

[shihansmurf]

We'll just disagree, which is okay.

I will say that psychologists, social workers and mental health experts will disagree with your assertion that addiction is due to lack of will. A mental defect cannot be overpowered anymore than depression or psychosis. Addiction is a disease. By the by, will is centred in your pelvis, which could lead us to an entire, massive thread on it's relationship to mental toughness.

As a side note, I've never met a morbidly obese person or alcoholic who wasn't a broken person.

Fair enough, I see you point, and though I don't agree with you I have to say that I think your last observation is spot on.

Mark

 

[shihansmurf]

Not this time. Your attitude makes my skin crawl, and I need to go out and get some sunshine. I would never want to be in your head with you, it appears be a very ugly place. Sorry, but although we've had cordial conversation, your recent statements make me sick to my stomach. I'm truly revolted.

Wow, personal attack, Bill.
Can't defend your position so you run and hide from the discussion, I thought you were made of something sterner. I guess 48 year old ex-marines aren't that tough?

There is a function called an ignore list, if I bother you so much add me to it.I would hate to think that holding people accountable for their action, not moly coddling drunks, addicts, and the like is so offensive.

I hope you have a better day
Mark

 

[Ronin74]

Just wanted to throw this out there: are crack babies mentally weak?

 

[shihansmurf]

Just wanted to throw this out there: are crack babies mentally weak?

Oh good. lets use the obvious extreme example that bears no relevance.

That crack baby didn't engage in the behavior that lead to its affliction. The Mother did and inflicted that horror on that baby.

but, hey it isn't the addicts fault, right? I means it isn't like she chose to engage in behavior that lead to her addiction. Hell, she didn't choose to continue to use drugs during her pregnancy. I mean, all of these things were magically inflicted on her through no fault of her own, and she was powerless to stop them from happening, right?

I mean, none of these things were choices, right?

But of course, I'm the mean guy for not viewing the mother as a victim.

Mark

 

[Ronin74]

Oh good. lets use the obvios extream example that bears no relevance.

That crack baby didn't engage in the behavior that lead to its affliction. The Mother did and inflicted that horror on that baby.

but, hey it isn't the addicts fault, right? I means it isn't like she chose to engage in behavior that lead to her addiction. Hell, she didn't choose to continue to use drugs during her pregnancy. I mean, all of these things were magically inflicted on her through no fault of her own, and she was powerless to stop them from happening, right?

I mean, none of these things were choices, right?

But of course, I'm the mean guy for not viewing the mother as a victim.

Mark

Relax Hoss. I'm just bringing up a VERY relevant point here, not trying to get you riled up.

If by your definition, an addiction is a sign of mental weakness, and that a person who works to overcome that addiction is demonstrating mental strength, then doesn't it stand to say that anyone who's done the work to overcome their own personal demons or afflictions were at one point "mentally weak" before they were "mentally strong"?

The point I'm making here is that it's easy for us to point fingers when we're not going through it. However unless we know the exact circumstances of how they got there, is it really fair to throw them under the "mental weakness" blanket? And if we're disgusted by people who may be going through the same trials we've overcome, perhaps the issue isn't with them.

Now I'm not saying our own personal opinions are wrong. They're just that- personal opinions. However there's that fine line we (I'm guilty of it too) cross when we try to classify someone else who may not fit into what we consider acceptable.

 

[shihansmurf]

You're opinions about addicition just don't hold water or hold up to the research. Addicition isn't about mental weakness...addicition is not really a choice. A person can be discipplined in many areas if life...but somewhere in the neurochemical makeup is this prediliction to a certain behavior. It may be dirnking, could be using certian drugs, could be gambling, eating...whatever. It sites there lurking. When presented with the addicitve stimulus, your brain sabotages you. Your 'willpower' goes right out the window....you're hooked.

Here's the thing....you don't know what that hook is until you've been exposed to it. An alcoholic who never is exposed to alcohol will not manifest the addicittion...but have a drink or two and it's game over. Conversely, there are plenty of stories of soldiers in the Vietnam era who turned to heroine in times of extreme stress...became physically addicted....had to go through detoix and never touched the stuff again once back in the states. Plenty of others spent their lives chasing the dragon as it were.

With things like eating, shopping, etc. They are even more insidioous becasue, unlike drugs or alcohol, one needs to eat and shop, etc to get through day to day life. One has the unenviable task to learn to manage the addicitve stimulus rather than just avoid it all together. It takes more than the usual amount of "willpower" to do something...most people (soldier or no) are simply not up to the task. It takes a life time of hard trials and persistence to make any headway.

To those who have not had to struggle with any sort of addicition, thank your lucky stars that you've been so lucky. To those of you have are struggling...know that some of us respect your strength and are silently pulling for you.

Peace,
Erik

Here's the thing.

I've been through this. As I stated in earlier posts, I was dignosed with PTSD and compulsivly ate as a coping mechanism. I'm not speaking from the perspective of someone that hasn't had to deal with this sort of problem.
It sucks, and its hard. I had to go through counseling and get help to beat it, but all that help came down to the same things.

1.Everything that you do is a choice, no matter how difficult that choice or unpleasent the consequences are for those choices.
2. Take accountability for your actions.
Every "addiction" that we face is a battle that we wage. We can choose to fight this battle, or not. Some times we choose to fight and loose. Tha sucks too, but it is better than not fighting.
3. Shifting responsibility for our actions from ourselves to whatever condition we have is self0defeating. It takes away our accountability and without that, we don't fight the battle. We don't fight we don't get better.

Now, I've parahphrased the hell out the process and maybe that is the problem here. The terminology that I use isn't soft and cuddly. Sorry about that, I think that euphamisms are a sort of lying. Calling a drunk anything else is a euphamism that serves to help keep that person bound to the bottle. Calling a glutton a "compulsive eater" is a polite way of handing him more food. I know because I've been there.

This what pisses me off about this sort of thing, I've been told in this thread that its not mental weakness to be overweight if you've served in combat. I was also told that I couldn't fathom what that was like.

Well, I sure as hell ended up with an eating disorder(not to mention sleeping problems and an anger management issue) as a result of combat. I grew up watching my dad try to embalm himself due to the effects of his combat experiences. But, I guess my opinion isn't valid since I'm not polite about calling drunks by a nice name.

Now, here's the fun fact. Both of us worked through those problems. But, I suppose that can't be true since addiction and will aren't linked. It can't be true since we were not the ones that were accountable for our actions, or "diseases" were.


I've also been told that my head must be an ugly place. Probably is. I would however think, that the fact that I have endured the very thing that I am writing about allows me to speak honestly about it without being insulted, but that isn't the case. I mean, obviously, my first hand experience is trumped by pontification and pronouncements of my erroneous viewpoint, a viewpoint tempered by having had to work through this sort of thing but nonetheless. I am well and truly humbled.

At the end of the day, holding people accountable for their actions is the only way to help them. I may be wrong but I have yet to ancounter a singe person that was able to successfully quite a self0destructive habit that did so while still clinging to the view that they were not the one that was to blame for their condition.

Mark

 

[bluekey88]

Here's the thing.

I've been through this. As I stated in earlier posts, I was dignosed with PTSD and compulsivly ate as a coping mechanism. I'm not speaking from the perspective of someone that hasn't had to deal with this sort of problem.
It sucks, and its hard. I had to go through counseling and get help to beat it, but all that help came down to the same things.

1.Everything that you do is a choice, no matter how difficult that choice or unpleasent the consequences are for those choices.
2. Take accountability for your actions.
Every "addiction" that we face is a battle that we wage. We can choose to fight this battle, or not. Some times we choose to fight and loose. Tha sucks too, but it is better than not fighting.
3. Shifting responsibility for our actions from ourselves to whatever condition we have is self0defeating. It takes away our accountability and without that, we don't fight the battle. We don't fight we don't get better.

Now, I've parahphrased the hell out the process and maybe that is the problem here. The terminology that I use isn't soft and cuddly. Sorry about that, I think that euphamisms are a sort of lying. Calling a drunk anything else is a euphamism that serves to help keep that person bound to the bottle. Calling a glutton a "compulsive eater" is a polite way of handing him more food. I know because I've been there.

This what pisses me off about this sort of thing, I've been told in this thread that its not mental weakness to be overweight if you've served in combat. I was also told that I couldn't fathom what that was like.

Well, I sure as hell ended up with an eating disorder(not to mention sleeping problems and an anger management issue) as a result of combat. I grew up watching my dad try to embalm himself due to the effects of his combat experiences. But, I guess my opinion isn't valid since I'm not polite about calling drunks by a nice name.

Now, here's the fun fact. Both of us worked through those problems. But, I suppose that can't be true since addiction and will aren't linked. It can't be true since we were not the ones that were accountable for our actions, or "diseases" were.


I've also been told that my head must be an ugly place. Probably is. I would however think, that the fact that I have endured the very thing that I am writing about allows me to speak honestly about it without being insulted, but that isn't the case. I mean, obviously, my first hand experience is trumped by pontification and pronouncements of my erroneous viewpoint, a viewpoint tempered by having had to work through this sort of thing but nonetheless. I am well and truly humbled.

At the end of the day, holding people accountable for their actions is the only way to help them. I may be wrong but I have yet to ancounter a singe person that was able to successfully quite a self0destructive habit that did so while still clinging to the view that they were not the one that was to blame for their condition.

Mark

Not making light of your experiences...but were you mentally weak prior to your trauma? How about after?

Your experinces highlight my points exactly. One's brain can really high-jack ones life. It's not pleasant, but it is hardly a sign of weakness.

that being said, we are responsible for our actions, our behaviors, and our recovery. But being in recpovery and struggling with addicition (or trauma or whatever the cas may be) isn't what makes one weak. Giving up and saying one cannot change is a different thing...but most of us struggling with various addicitions are hardly saying that.

Peace,
Erik

 

[shihansmurf]

Relax Hoss. I'm just bringing up a VERY relevant point here, not trying to get you riled up.

If by your definition, an addiction is a sign of mental weakness, and that a person who works to overcome that addiction is demonstrating mental strength, then doesn't it stand to say that anyone who's done the work to overcome their own personal demons or afflictions were at one point "mentally weak" before they were "mentally strong"?

The point I'm making here is that it's easy for us to point fingers when we're not going through it. However unless we know the exact circumstances of how they got there, is it really fair to throw them under the "mental weakness" blanket? And if we're disgusted by people who may be going through the same trials we've overcome, perhaps the issue isn't with them.

Now I'm not saying our own personal opinions are wrong. They're just that- personal opinions. However there's that fine line we (I'm guilty of it too) cross when we try to classify someone else who may not fit into what we consider acceptable.

My apologies, I fired off that post right after the one to Bill. I didn't mean to be that harsh. I'm sorry.

Your second paragraph is EXACTLY what I'm getting at. Working through these issues takes tremedous strength, getting into them in the first place, however. No one is perfect. We all fail. Recognizing that in order get better we have to own our failures is difficult. Its painful. But its how we get past our shortcomings.

Look, I was a fat and gluttonous before I decided to make these changes. The process sucked, made harder by the fact that my brain was trying to sabotage me as bluekey88 pointed out on a chemical level. Nonetheless, I was able to push through and now I'm past it.

My dad endured horrible dt's and still fight his war with the bottle to this day. He is incredibly different as a person now, and the reserves of mental strength that he has shown with this, and his recent cancer dignosis have been amazing.

The circumstances that got people into the situations, while important, ultimately don;t account for that much when you are trying to get past the specific addiction. In my case, I know why I was cramming food ito my face, it didn't stop things, and I couldn't change any of the things that got my to that point. I could change things from that point onward.

As I've stated, I don't dislike fat people. I don't go around initiating converstions with them by saying things like.."Hey, do you want me to tell you what your obesity is doing to your health?"
I don't offer open critique of my associated even, unless asked, and then I am more tactfull but still honest. I thinkl it is the only real way to help a person that is suffering from addiction.

Mark

 

[JDenver]

GETTING TO THE ORIGINAL POST -

My own experience just gave me some insight into something.

I used to run alot. Since doing more MA, I rarely run anymore. I don't have time to run for 45 minutes, then do another 45 minutes of MA every day. You'd really have to be dedicated to do so much working out (and I literally do my MA stuff 20-40 minutes everyday...sometimes more of course).

So, maybe some MA folks do their practice, which isn't significant enough cardiovascular activity to burn excess calories?

 

[shihansmurf]

Not making light of your experiences...but were you mentally weak prior to your trauma? How about after?

Your experinces highlight my points exactly. One's brain can really high-jack ones life. It's not pleasant, but it is hardly a sign of weakness.

that being said, we are responsible for our actions, our behaviors, and our recovery. But being in recpovery and struggling with addicition (or trauma or whatever the cas may be) isn't what makes one weak. Giving up and saying one cannot change is a different thing...but most of us struggling with various addicitions are hardly saying that.

Peace,
Erik

This is what I've been trying to get at this whole time.

Was I weak before? I don't think so. I think that I allowed myself to become that way as I leaned on food as a coping mechanism. Its a fine distinction, but an important one. There was a cause(the PTSD) and a really bad series of decisions as to how to deal with the effects of that which lead to the problem.

I think that the way we get ourselves into these situations is what determines what sort of people we are.

The struggle to get past these hurdles is hard, and overcoming them is a sign of great mental strength. Being in recovery is a positive thing, it means that you have elected to fight the battle, not just continue along in your addictions. Continuing to enslave oneself to whatever sickness is destroying your life, is unacceptable.

I decided not to live on my knees. The way I see it, if a person chooses to crawl, thats weak.

Mark

 

[shihansmurf]

GETTING TO THE ORIGINAL POST -

My own experience just gave me some insight into something.

I used to run alot. Since doing more MA, I rarely run anymore. I don't have time to run for 45 minutes, then do another 45 minutes of MA every day. You'd really have to be dedicated to do so much working out (and I literally do my MA stuff 20-40 minutes everyday...sometimes more of course).

So, maybe some MA folks do their practice, which isn't significant enough cardiovascular activity to burn excess calories?

Yeah, there was a different intent of this thread wasn't there?

MA training alone has a weird point of diminishing return for a lot of practitioners. At first the movements are alien and the body struggles to perform them correctly so the work outs are a lot harder. As the Art gets internalized the movements get quite a bit easier, this coupled with the fact that in most martial arts classes there is a lot of start and stop activity to allow the teacher to explain things it makes MA alone pretty poor as far as a cardio activity goes. As silly as I found the whole Tae Bo thing, I tried it a couple f times and I gotta admit that its a good workout. I think that adding more cardio elements o most martial arts classes would help.

Mark

 

[bluekey88]

You're right...it is a very fine distinction. I have issues with drugs and alcohol. growing up, no one in my family had those problems. I didn't realize i was an addict until after that first drink. I wouldn't say I was weak...all my friends were drinking. I wasn't even being particularly risky in my behavior. Problem was that once started, it was very hard to stop. Maybe it's just semantics, but I find it veyr hard to hold someone accoutable for a trait that they had very little control in acquiring 9be it genetics, trauma, what have you). We all have to work with the cards we've been dealt in life...it's jsut that oftentimes, we don't know we're holding jokers until after it's too late.

i think we're closer in philosophy than not.

Peace,
Erik

 

[Zakky]

We all have to work with the cards we've been dealt in life...it's jsut that oftentimes, we don't know we're holding jokers until after it's too late.

So true. Well said Erik, excellent post.

 

[matt.m]

matt.m,

I am a professional soldier with three combat deployments since 2003. I have Bronze Star with a "V" device and two Purple Hearts. I have risked my life for my country, killed men in combat, and lost soldiers.

I can fathom quite a bit.

You may have been offended that I am a judgemental jackass because I hold people accountable for their physical fitness. I think that people are responsible for their actions. See, when people sit on their butts cramming food into their pie holes, they get fat. I'm sorry if this hurts your feelings.


Mantal toughness isn't a catch phrase, it is an accurate descriptor.
One last note, some us have served our country. Some of us went into combat and did some things that we would rather not have had to. In an earlier post, I commented on the fact that I was diagnosed with PTSD. One of its manifestations for me was compulsive eating. I worked through it. I used "Mental Toughnes".

Oh wait, I couldn't have since its just a ridiculous catch phrase. I guess instead what I should have done was to keep carrying around the extra weight and balming everyone but myself? Or should I have blamed my combat experiences, you know the ones that I could't possibly fathom?

I chose to take responsibility for my actions and fix the problem, you will I hope forgive me, as I think that other people have the same underlying strength to do the same. Patting them on the back and telling them its okay to put their health at risk because they can't control their appetites is unacceptable.



Mark

Mark,
Thanks for your service. What is your branch and M.O.S.? Are you in braces for mobility? Do you have P.T.S.D.? Oh wait, you are cured......so you were cured of a mental disease that there is no cure for.....only denial. I have been dealing with it since 94 so don't tell me. Anyway, there is no x-marine unless it was adishonorable. Funny, In Hati etc. we went in lit the place up and secured the area so the members of the Army could set up tents and serve chow. The problem with us strong willed military folk is that we just have to be right. I was that way until I left the Marines 12 yrs. ago and see how the P.T.S.D. wards and prostethics units are filled with the Marines who were fired upon. Combat is indeed ugly, I know I have that t-shirt plus some. I was the N.C.O. that got the letters from mom saying "Keep Johnny Safe." Yep my attitude on mental toughness is more "Survival" than "Hard Core". But I digress, I am not going to have a pee up the tree contest with you. I just know that living through a helicopter crash and being one of the only survivors after being shot down in africa is a big deal.

I was an N.C.O. who has seen a lot of lost life and hurt. "Mental Toughness" is as much a catchphrase as "Army Strong" and "Pain Is Weakness Leaving The Body."

Also spare me the lost land mines, bombs, etc in the middle east. Their is more unaccounted for in Bosnia, Albania, Kosovo than anywhere else in the world. It was true then and it is true now.

Holding people accountable for their own physical fitness isnt your job, you thinking so makes you a jackass. So tell me man, what's your b.m.i.? What is your body fat percentage. Ya know, unless you are an olympic champion or Mr. Olympia, world champion of something you have no room to talk. That is your superiority complex coming out. I was a member of the Marine Judo and Wrestling teams, I decided to try and help not shun others. This is what I think you were doing.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

To suggest that compulsive eating means that you are weak minded is to also suggest that a compulsive gambler, heroin addict, smoker, and alcoholic all lack mental toughness.

Firstly, nobody said weak minded as I recall. And the compulsive gambler has a lack of mental toughness in that area.

The heroin addict's mental toughness is eroded by the drug, so yes, they lack mental toughness as a result of the drug.

Same for the smoker and the alcoholic. These areas are areas where those persons' mental toughness is lacking, even though they may have it in abundance in other areas.

A compulsive eater has an issue with being able to resist the urge to overeat. Thus they lack mental toughness in that paricular area.

Addictive behaviour has nothing to do with your will or mental toughness.

Actually, it very much has to do with your will, though depending upon the behavior in question, chemical dependency and physiological issues can also be a factor.

Daniel

 

[thetruth]

WOW!!! Hasn't this discussion got heated in a short time. I'm not an addict by any definition so I am not going to assume that all addicts are weak minded however I will just say one thing. Was it not a choice to have the first smoke or shot of heroin? Regardless of how easily someone can quit they clearly made a choice in the first place. Also if 1 person can quit and be considered strong willed in doing so doesn't that by it's very nature make those who can't quit not as strong willed?

Also on the fat thing again. This clearly comes from poor choice a vast majority of the time. Very few people have gland issues or food addiction or and other medical issues that cause it.

Cheers
Sam:asian:

 

[yorkshirelad]

First of all, there are numerous pleasantly plump, rotund....ok fat martial artists, who have not only proved their worth as teachers, but who were top notch in their sport. Tom Kelly, Frank Trejo, Ron Chapel, Mas Oyama, Chojun Miyagi and even Ed Parker can be put in the 'fat' category, but they are/were top notch teachers and practitioners.
I don't drink (often), don't smoke, don't do drugs, don't gamble and train every day, but there are facets of my personality that may be considered 'weak'. For instance, I run up to six miles per day, but take me for a hike in the mountains with a 60lb pack and you'll probabaly get me crying like a six year old girl. Am I weak, YES, in the mountain hiking department. I like to spar hard and in the past I loved taking offense at idiots and starting stupid fights. Then again, give me an M16 and throw me in a combat team against a group of pissed off Taliban in Kabul and I'd probably **** myself and drop like a pair of knickers. Am I weak, in the "engaging pissed off Taliban ' department, yes.
We can all pick out pieces of people's character or body shape and make judgements, but it doesn't mean those judgements are correct.
I had an uncle, who sadly died in '07. He was hardworking and built a small business up in a small town in Co Kerry,Ireland to the point were many people relied on it to make a living. He sacrificed his health for those people and his family. He had little time to do anything other than work and when he ate, he would eat whatever he could get his hands on in the little time he had. He was fat and out of shape, but I never saw anyone more disciplined and hardworking than him. If I had heard anyone who saw him say "I'm not a fan of fat", I would've gotten quite angry.
My brother was on prednisone for years as a kid, because of his asthma. The drug made him balloon in weight. His face was bloated and working out was hard, because he had trouble breathing and osteopirosis in his legs because of the medication. I suppose he was weak also.
I'm not getting a Ssmurf in this post. I know you are speaking from experience, have served your country and have battled weight yourself. I just think that we all have to look at each case seperately. Of course there are fat people who are undisciplined, but there are thin people that are just as undisciplined. matt, Army, Navy, Air Force, Marines, who cares, your all heros in my book, Shihan Smurf, you and Bill. Kudos gentlemen.

 

[JDenver]

The heroin addict's mental toughness is eroded by the drug, so yes, they lack mental toughness as a result of the drug........

Daniel

Certainly, in some instances, by sheer will power, some may overcome personal issues. Shades of grey I suppose. But I'll also stick with what mental health practicioners know - that addiction is a disease.