Discussion in 'General Self Defense' started by Hanzou, Dec 17, 2018.
Seems to be right in your wheelhouse. Learning a bit in ten minutes.
It is like anything. We all have these preconceptions that is why we produce evidence.
I went for years thinking high kick would just get caught until I saw through repeated experiments that it wasn't really the case.
I also spent years trying to drop bad guys with DT until I realized that it mostly doesn't work and then reviewed what does work. And how to tell the difference.
So that should I have an actual technical discussion on the subject I don't have to rely on hiding. Or vague concepts of specific requirements.
I can say what I do. Why I do it and the risks and the rewards of the techniques and tactics. Because that is knowledge of the subject.
BJJ is a sport art. As such, it is terrible for law enforcement (same with any sport art). I've detailed, in depth, why many times here. Royce Gracie use to teach at our regional training center (I know him, very nice guy). At first it was very popular and the flavor-of-the-month. When folks got over the newness (this was back in the 90's and early 00's) they started realizing that it not only was useless training but detrimental training. Royce had to extensively modify BJJ to make it usable in the 'street'. Eventually no one took the class as other more effective training was available (Tony Blauers' SPEAR, Ken Good's PCR, Boatman's Edged Weapon defense etc).
Now I know the BJJ guys will disagree. That's fine. But 99% of them have never been in law enforcement. Things are different in the street (or in a jail or prison) than on a mat.
Are you just here to talk trash about "sport arts"? Because you seem to be on a roll today of just saying things won't be useful in defense that people have actually used in defense. Just sayin'.
Gaps in a system aren't the same thing as it being "useless".
I know, have trained with, and am friends with a good number of cops, former cops, and correctional officers who include BJJ (and/or Judo) in their training. They're all pretty happy with it.
The problem with a thread about usefulness of (insert whatever martial art you like) for Police use (and of course it could be military use or self defence use or ...) is that it is not a simple yes or no question - it is going to depend on many factors and what is workable for one person will not be workable for another - and in many places (correct me if I am wrong) the defensive tactics taught to officers is regulated by the organisation they work for. Finally, for most of the police officers I have known in the UK their available time for practice (and let's not even discuss the little amount of time given to training) is quite restricted - which is why CS Spray / Tasers / Batons / etc are often pretty much their first line of defence when tactical communications fails or is inappropriate.
Last I checked, this forum was about sharing opinions and experience. And I have done so here and in the Judo thread. In neither instance was it 'trash-talking' as I detailed why I am of the opinion that I stated. And I stand by it and will be happy to offer debate.
Then I would state that your friends in L.E. have either never actually used in during a use-of-force, got very lucky if they did or modified the training to make it work. Which is what Royce had to do. And since he's pretty familiar with BJJ, and since he DID have to modify it for L.E. I would consider that as having more weight.
Our training unit also offers BJJ for some elements of ground defense, but it has been heavily modified.
Sure, you have to "modify" it for law enforcement. You always have to modify it for the context at hand.
Using BJJ in an IBJJF tournament is different from using it in an MMA match is different from using it in an ADCC tournament is different from using it in a consensual street fight is different from using it for self defense against a would-be rapist is different from using it as a LEO restraining a suspect. The underlying body mechanics are the same, but if you don't understand the context you are applying them in, you stand a good chance of getting yourself in trouble.
I agree, with one caveat. Some of the more 'known' techniques in BJJ i.e. the bread-n-butter techniques such as rear-naked choke, guilotine, triangle arm bar etc is ill advised for a L.E. setting because it is NEVER a good idea to tie up your arms or stay on the ground, particularly if a weapon is present (which it WILL be...yours) and/or the merest possibility of multiple perps. As such, many of the strategies of BJJ (sport) are detrimental to the L.E. arena as it tends to teach the student to try to get into these positions i.e. go for the submission.
So, others' experience doesn't count - they just "got very lucky"?
If that's how you'd like to receive what I said, yes. They either haven't really used it, got lucky or it was modified. Pick whichever of the three that applies to the specific individual.
I remember this thread!
I'm going to have to go back and reread the whole thing. I think I'll save it for tonight.
This does sound like some of the most egregious marketing hype.
You keep throwing out "if it worked, they had to modify it" as if that disproves the usefulness of something.
Most, if not all, martial arts have to be modified in application from training. It's pretty damn rare for someone to set down in front you, assume a stance, and deliver a textbook reverse punch -- even in the sparring ring, let alone the street. Or to set up a roll rather than be grabbed... We don't even shoot in the real world like we do on the firing line... because the training hall, whether it's a formal dojo, a gym, a park, whatever, is a laboratory, with inherent flaws to make it safe to practice. It's not the real world -- if it was, and the stuff we're doing, whether DT/CT or martial arts, is half as effective as we claim it is, and we did it, we'd be sending our training partners to the ER on a regular basis. Just about everything we do in law enforcement gets adapted, changed, modified, or tweaked for the application of the moment... whether that's notetaking, conducting a traffic stop, interviewing a subject, putting cuffs on someone... it all gets adjusted for the real world.
So, of course, when it comes to actually using something, there's adjustment, adaptation, and modification. That said -- there are plenty of pretty damn skilled cops out there using Judo in one fashion or another on the street. (Look up Steve Jimerfield, for instances...) There are others using BJJ. Or various styles of karate, hwrang do, hap ki do... you name it.
I just reread this whole thread. I felt like I was in the film One Flew Over The Cuckoo’s Nest.
Man, I haven't seen that movie in ages...
You keep mentioning your long list of "real world" and LEO experiences where you used your MA. Can you list and describe these encounters to help us understand where you are coming from?
And I would say you don't know what the hell you're talking about, have an agenda to drive, or are protecting your ego by defending a thesis proven to be false.
So, you know, whatever dude.123
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