EPAK Slapping from another Systems Viewpoint.

[MisterMike]

I must agree with Mike however, slapping the opposite shoulder is not a prerequisite as long as you execute the elbow with the same anatomical alignment. But I can see that slapping the opposite shoulder does aid in acheiving this alignment.

I'm going to agree with me too

I Can see that slapping your shoulder would have to put your hand in the right chambering position to execute a proper outward elbow, since it would follow a line rather than an arc if you had chambered somewhere else.

Also, by having your hand tight against your chest you have a strong brace for the outward elbow. If it is off of your body, then the arm is free to move.

If this is the final position of your elbow, then it will be strong.

 

[Doc]

Originally posted by WhiteTiger
I understand where your coming from here. But in this example you are trading off other efficiencies to gain proper anatomical form.

That is incorrect.

If your weapon, at any time for any reason moves away from the target, the time you will take to get to the target will increase, as well as telegraphing your intentions.

That is a misconception from a flawed interpretation. Human dynamics are simply different.

The human body can only move so fast, when velocity is fixed, distance and time are one and the same.

Although that is true, I told you not to bring inanimate physical principles to human interaction. Speed is a relative factor and your hypothesis doesn't take into account human traits beyond simple mechanical speed. There are intangibles like "Perceptual Speed" as well as "Mental Speed" that are major factors that come into play before "Mechanical Speed" can be addressed as an example.

I can see as the body ages proper anatomical form becomes more and more important in order to avoid injury.

So alignment is not important until you begin to age? Consider that improper movement causes premature aging of the body parts. To move any other way than properly is to destroy the machine which contridicts the overall purpose of training and study.

As in may cases with Martial Arts applications how you deliver any one attack will depend on what you are trying to acheive.

We can agree there.

Using this example you gain rigidity in your weapon but you sacrifice the ability marry additional forces into your execution.

Not so, in fact proper execution assures a "marrying" of other principles and your methodology excludes them.

I must agree with Mike however, slapping the opposite shoulder is not a prerequisite as long as you execute the elbow with the same anatomical alignment.

Sorry but that is a contridiction, and you missed my point. You CANNOT execute this action in 2 different ways and get a singular results either way. You must make a decision relative to what level you wish to study and train. Getting the weapon there "quickly" with no alignment isolates the weapon and places you at the level of a layperson executing "Blunt Force Trauma Impact." A person can learn that in a couple of days. So why do we train for years and how do we get better? Move faster, hit harder?

The human body is capable of a tremendous amount of speed when moved properly, but a direct path is not always faster in all cases or anatomically expeditious, and certainly not taking advantage of the body subcutaneous support mechanisms as its achitecture is designed to do.

There are some that would suggest a "bullwhip" is very effective, however it take a circuitous route to its target. Why? because it is a necessity to achieve the desired effect and to harness its physical mass and speed. In fact, it cannot work another way and achieve the same results. Some human actions are no different.

The human body is a large gellatinous bag with a semi-rigid substructure and multiple articulated appendages or armatures. Those appendages are connected to the body torso via "circular ball joints" and not hinges. That should be a clue.

Because the body can move in an inefficient mode for the sake of fluid everyday movement, doesn't mean these movements translate into efficient actions beyond the simplistic. When martial application is neccessary the entire body must be aligned to utilize the architecture properly. I guarantee that anatomical movement is not only stronger but is faster as well. I always thought you "strike" with the weapon, but you "hit" with the entrie body. Your methodology contridicts that assumption.

With Newtonian Physics in architecture when certain principles are ignored, sooner or later buildings, bridges, and structures collapse castistrophically. Human anatomy being more fluid will allow you to "do things wrong" but ultimately progress ceases and collapse is imminent as well in the form of injury.

But I can see that slapping the opposite shoulder does aid in acheiving this alignment.

I'll settle for that, but to continue to think only in mechanically expeditious execution terms without an understanding of human anatomy dictates will forever leave you at the learning stage of the "Tiger." (no pun)
I choose to follow the model that Ed Parker taught me. Considering he used it himself makes it good enough for me, and he was a big "Dragon." Thank you for the intelligent exchange. I'm truly sorry that we will have to agree to disagree. :asian:

 

[Doc]

Originally posted by MisterMike
I'm going to agree with me too

I Can see that slapping your shoulder would have to put your hand in the right chambering position to execute a proper outward elbow, since it would follow a line rather than an arc if you had chambered somewhere else.

Also, by having your hand tight against your chest you have a strong brace for the outward elbow. If it is off of your body, then the arm is free to move.

If this is the final position of your elbow, then it will be strong.

At your level that probably makes sense. Perhaps one day I or others will have the opportunity to dispel some of your assumptions and elevate you to a different perspective. Good luck sir.

 

[MisterMike]

A simple experiment for you.

Stand in a horse stance
Execute an outward elbow to the side
lock it out and have someone gradually
push on it counter direction to the strike.

I think that this discussion strayed away from the experiment.

As for striking someone, you may be on to something, but the test of this experiment begins _after_ reaching your outward elbow position. Then, someone comes to push on it. Could be 10 seconds later. Could be 20, right?

The things is you are static there, so what happened up to that point, to me, doesn't bear any importance. I could slap my shoulder, or not have.

After your last lengthly response, I had to check your profile

I had no idea it was you Dr. Chapel :asian:

I come up to these boards for fun as I am not training in Kenpo any longer but do enjoy the discussion.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Originally posted by Doc
As I know "Skip" to be intelligent and brilliant, I 'll take that as a pretty good compliment. Thank you and tell Skip I said "Hey Dude."

Doc,
Much of what skip professes about this subject comes from his study of Paul Mills' system. His conclusion as I've been trying to explain is that it is more important to take your time and do each move from its starting point of origin. Nay sayers be damned but you are actualy faster in the long run. Paul Mills is, after all, a world class quick draw champion. As Skip would say these days, "why not look to the experts?". I'll be sure to tell Skip you said "hi".
Sean

 

[Doc]

Originally posted by MisterMike
I think that this discussion strayed away from the experiment.

As for striking someone, you may be on to something, but the test of this experiment begins _after_ reaching your outward elbow position. Then, someone comes to push on it. Could be 10 seconds later. Could be 20, right?

The things is you are static there, so what happened up to that point, to me, doesn't bear any importance. I could slap my shoulder, or not have.

I have a feeling you have yet to actually conduct the experiment. The test is only to demonstrate a significant difference in structural integrity by a particular methodology. There are a few out there who have been in classes and seminars with me who have had the opportunity to compare in "real" time and "real" energy. Perhaps someone will post.

In terms of expeditious striking and power, I guess I'll just have to wait until I see you to "demonstrate" what I'm saying.

Thanks for the exchange, and I'm glad you wore a cup.:asian:

 

[kenposikh]

Hi Folks,

I would like to say my two cents worth here and that is that I personally have experienced the power and significant devastation from a technique using structural integrity principles.

You really have to try it to understand it and as SGM E K Parker said to feel is to believe, I therefore suggest that if anyone of you can get to train with Doctor Chapel then do so you won't regret it. If you can't get to him why not invite him to visit your class or to a seminar who knows.

Go in with an open mind and you will surely be impressed.

Try the test and if it doesn't work for you then ask the Doc what you are doing wrong, to question is good but to dismiss without trying is ignorance just my opinion and not intended to offend anyone.

 

[Doc]

Originally posted by kenposikh
Hi Folks,

I would like to say my two cents worth here and that is that I personally have experienced the power and significant devastation from a technique using structural integrity principles.

You really have to try it to understand it and as SGM E K Parker said to feel is to believe, I therefore suggest that if anyone of you can get to train with Doctor Chapel then do so you won't regret it. If you can't get to him why not invite him to visit your class or to a seminar who knows.

Go in with an open mind and you will surely be impressed.

Try the test and if it doesn't work for you then ask the Doc what you are doing wrong, to question is good but to dismiss without trying is ignorance just my opinion and not intended to offend anyone.

It been awhile. :asian: Thanks.

 

[kenposikh]

As my Instructor (Master Bob Rose 10th Dan) once said to us in a class, the day I stop learning is the day I give up Kenpo.

This is so true we don't all know it all but we must be open to differing methods.

respectfully yours

Amrik

 

[Doc]

Originally posted by kenposikh
As my Instructor (Master Bob Rose 10th Dan) once said to us in a class, the day I stop learning is the day I give up Kenpo.

This is so true we don't all know it all but we must be open to differing methods.

respectfully yours

Amrik

I agree as well. I've been AT the arts, (not IN the arts) almost 47 years, and have never been bored with the learning process nor taken any substantial time off. When I stop learning is when I'll quit, and considering all the things I don't know, that won't be happening in my liftime. I have more ranks and degrees than I'll ever need. Growth is what I seek within the science passed to me by the Kahuna. By doing that I honor him and his memory, and keep my promise.

 

[howardr]

I wrote a longer post (but this is plenty long) but IE crashed as I was about to submit my reply. Instead of recapitulating the entire thing, I'll just say the following.

Many here seem to "analyze" the experiment offered by Dr. Chapel but skip the crucial step of performing it. After all, it is an experiment, the point is to do it! Don't just talk about it, actually try it. When I've tried this experiment (and a large number of other ones of increasing complexity) it has yielded impressive results. My opinion is that these experiments are Dr. Chapel's way of offering objectively verifiable, inductive tests to demonstrate that various methods of executing basics will produce significantly different results. So, as opposed to the idea that if the final result "looks" the same, it must have the same effectiveness, what Dr. Chapel's experiments show is that the method of getting to the result will determine the level of effectiveness. Instead of him just asserting that, he is actually giving experiments that can be performed and independently verified. Analysis by itself, or "seeing" the experiment in the mind's eye, will not suffice to show why two ways of getting to the same place will produce different results. In the end, you must be willing to give the experiment an honest effort and not a half-hearted attempt (or worse still just a visualization).

I would note in conclusion that describing, grasping and performing these hands on experiments is not easy. So, I don't think it would be quite fair if a participant feels they didn't get the exact result expected, to come to the knee-jerk conclusion that the experiment failed. It may have, or perhaps it was not performed correctly. If these simple experiments are causing such a ruckus, is it any wonder why Dr. Chapel has not offered some of his more sophisticated experiments? I'm starting to see exactly why he hasn't.

 

[kenposikh]

Nice post Howard I would have loved to have read the extensive one.

 

[WhiteTiger]

Originally posted by howardr
Many here seem to "analyze" the experiment offered by Dr. Chapel but skip the crucial step of performing it. After all, it is an experiment, the point is to do it! Don't just talk about it, actually try it.

My training partner and I performed it, analyzed it, visualized it, and attempted to apply this concept to a few self defense techniques with similar movement. Perhaps it is something that one must be shown to understand, perhaps I just need another 15 or so years of experience, but when people talk about the "flow of certain energies" it usually translates to the mystic properties the chinese have attributed to Chi.

I will reserve my opinion at this time until I have further opportunity to work with this concept.

 

[Crazy Chihuahua]

Hmm.....I've been gone for quite a while, so I didn't get into this thread very early. Consequently, I've forgotten most of the huge, long posts I read over the past four pages. In any case, I felt like offering an answer if anyone cares to hear it and if you don't, well, there are tons of others in here, so here goes:

Most of you seem to practice American Kenpo, so MAYBE you have different purposes for "slapping" your own body. As many people in here like to remind me, however, the Kanzen and American systems have certain similarities, so perhaps my explanation can help SOMEBODY out there. That wasn't exactly a response, though, was it? Oh, well. Now my answer for real:

Slapping our bodies is a way to practice proper positioning for guards, (in our system, a weapon placed in readiness to counter an opponent's action or reaction to our strike is called a guard if it does not touch the opponent, and a check if it does [there are many types of checks, but that's irrelevant for now,].) By slapping yourself, you set your hand in it's proper place to counteract an attacker's action/reaction (for example, hand at the shoulder, guarding the face from an upward swinging arm as you lift an opponent from a bent-over position with a palm strike.) The slap noise is an audio cue that lets your instructor know that a guard has been placed. The feeling of slapping yourself is a self-teaching tool that reminds you that the guard is there at that time in the technique.

There you have it, for whatever it's worth...

 

[Touch Of Death]

Originally posted by Crazy Chihuahua
Hmm.....I've been gone for quite a while, so I didn't get into this thread very early. Consequently, I've forgotten most of the huge, long posts I read over the past four pages. In any case, I felt like offering an answer if anyone cares to hear it and if you don't, well, there are tons of others in here, so here goes:

Most of you seem to practice American Kenpo, so MAYBE you have different purposes for "slapping" your own body. As many people in here like to remind me, however, the Kanzen and American systems have certain similarities, so perhaps my explanation can help SOMEBODY out there. That wasn't exactly a response, though, was it? Oh, well. Now my answer for real:

Slapping our bodies is a way to practice proper positioning for guards, (in our system, a weapon placed in readiness to counter an opponent's action or reaction to our strike is called a guard if it does not touch the opponent, and a check if it does [there are many types of checks, but that's irrelevant for now,].) By slapping yourself, you set your hand in it's proper place to counteract an attacker's action/reaction (for example, hand at the shoulder, guarding the face from an upward swinging arm as you lift an opponent from a bent-over position with a palm strike.) The slap noise is an audio cue that lets your instructor know that a guard has been placed. The feeling of slapping yourself is a self-teaching tool that reminds you that the guard is there at that time in the technique.

There you have it, for whatever it's worth...

I would agree with what you have just said but I'm a little hung up on the thing about the slap being a cue for your instructor. The slap is in fact a cue for yourself to make descisions based on your needs at that exact moment. You seem to be making semantic leaps and bounds with the word "guard" but if I'm reading this right I completely agree with you.
Sean

 

[Robbo]

Also,

Slaps can be used in many different ways,

1) As a auditory clue that your timing is correct.
2) As Mr. Chape`l mentioned a physical clue that your weapons are correctly aligned or on their way to being correctly aligned.
3) As a by-product of re-bounding.
4) As a means of setting the trajectory of your weapon (a upward lifting backfist should brush/slap the leg on the way towards it's target)
5) As a way of dispersing/generating power when practising alone without resistance.
6) As CC mentioned a way of knowing where your positioned checks are.
7)As a way of conditioning the body.

and I'm sure a bunch more but,

there are many different ways to execute the 'slap'.....remember to ask your instructor about the whys and hows.

Rob

 

[Karazenpo]

Okay, now I don't want to get ganged up on here, lol, I have corresponded privately and have the utmost respect for several of the members on this forum but I just want to throw this at you and get some input. I have been in law enforcement since 1977, working the streets, narcotics and bar room details in the past. I've experienced a lot of things and I have exchanged stories with others in and out of law enforcement who have also. Imho, many make fighting too complicated. Let's face it, it's really fairly simple, as some have great natural ability without any training what-so-ever! Don't get me wrong, I'm a firm believer in the martial arts and hardcore training whether a natural or not but there is only so much that can actually be used even by the most expertise practitioner. Most that do well in actual encounters from what I have seen and/or experienced do a lot of punching/striking, a little kicking, some elbows & knees and good old grappling. Please allow me to give this example. In a previous post the term Pak Sao was mentioned and how Mr. Parker changed the name to , I think what was said, positional checks. I remember the term Pak Sao block from Wing Chun Kung Fu which brought this to mind. Now, this was a while ago and I may be a little fuzzy on exact details but was it William Cheung who was giving a seminar on Wing Chun Kung Fu and a rival instructor or something like that 'crashed' the seminar and attacked him. There were some cameras clicking away at the time and it certainly didn't look like 'sticky hands' to me but more like Vince McMahon's World Wrestling Federation's 'Smack Down'! Now, this is not mean't to put anyone or style down, please believe that, my intentions are sincere but it does make one question; "How much of all this is actually used against a WORTHY opponent?" The key word being WORTHY. I know some can relate encounters where either themselves or someone else used this or that in but then again there are some trouble makers out there that pick fights that we could do a kata on and make it work, lol. I'm sure we're all on the same page when I say we all train to fight the 'ringer'and outside of movies, television, demonstrations or in the dojo, I'ver never seen all this stuff go down like it's related in practice, don't you agree? What say you? And again, Respectfully submitted.

 

[MJS]

Originally posted by Karazenpo
Okay, now I don't want to get ganged up on here, lol, I have corresponded privately and have the utmost respect for several of the members on this forum but I just want to throw this at you and get some input. I have been in law enforcement since 1977, working the streets, narcotics and bar room details in the past. I've experienced a lot of things and I have exchanged stories with others in and out of law enforcement who have also. Imho, many make fighting too complicated. Let's face it, it's really fairly simple, as some have great natural ability without any training what-so-ever! Don't get me wrong, I'm a firm believer in the martial arts and hardcore training whether a natural or not but there is only so much that can actually be used even by the most expertise practitioner. Most that do well in actual encounters from what I have seen and/or experienced do a lot of punching/striking, a little kicking, some elbows & knees and good old grappling. Please allow me to give this example. In a previous post the term Pak Sao was mentioned and how Mr. Parker changed the name to , I think what was said, positional checks. I remember the term Pak Sao block from Wing Chun Kung Fu which brought this to mind. Now, this was a while ago and I may be a little fuzzy on exact details but was it William Cheung who was giving a seminar on Wing Chun Kung Fu and a rival instructor or something like that 'crashed' the seminar and attacked him. There were some cameras clicking away at the time and it certainly didn't look like 'sticky hands' to me but more like Vince McMahon's World Wrestling Federation's 'Smack Down'! Now, this is not mean't to put anyone or style down, please believe that, my intentions are sincere but it does make one question; "How much of all this is actually used against a WORTHY opponent?" The key word being WORTHY. I know some can relate encounters where either themselves or someone else used this or that in but then again there are some trouble makers out there that pick fights that we could do a kata on and make it work, lol. I'm sure we're all on the same page when I say we all train to fight the 'ringer'and outside of movies, television, demonstrations or in the dojo, I'ver never seen all this stuff go down like it's related in practice, don't you agree? What say you? And again, Respectfully submitted.

Excellent post! This does bring up many good points! You are right- Here we are, spending many years, and lots of money to study an art to learn to defend ourselves. Before I go on, I'd just like to say again, that we all do the arts for differnet reasons, so of course, everybody is going to have a very different outlook on this subject. When I would teach a student a SD tech, I would tell them that this is ONE possible way of looking at the attack, whatever it may be. I tell them that they are learning the tech. in the "perfect world" where everything is going to go as planned. I then go on to tell them that eventually, its up to them to take the skills that they learned and move on, by looking at the "what ifs" and use their mind to create a way, using the skills that they have, to defend themselves from an attack. Unfortunately, some dont seem to understand. When working a tech. line, I intentionally throw out an attack that they have never seen a defense for. They stand there, with a very confused look. I then say to them, "Do you know how to block, punch, parry, kick, etc.?" The reply "Yes!" I then look at them and say, "Well, then do it! Dont just stand there, do something" You can see the light slowly coming on as they realize how much sense this makes.

While we may practice to an extent, some realism in the class while doing a tech. you will still not be able to create the way a person on the street, who is hell bent on killing you or causing you some serious harm. The example of William Cheung is a perfect example. Emin Boztepe came out of nowhere and attacked him. Granted, the arts DO NOT turn you into a superman, but you would think that the skills that you have would give you an edge over the average guy. Will we in a fight, be able to do a SD tech. properly? Probably not. Yeah, I'm sure there are some that could get it off without a problem, but in the long run, IMO, those techs. are going to go right out the door. It will, like you said, turn into the striking/hitting/knees/elbows/grappling, that you mentioned. The guy isnt going to throw one punch, stand there, and wait until you do your 8 move tech. Instead, its going to be a flurry of things thrown at you. Are you really going to be thinking about which punch tech. you want to do, or are you going to be thinking about saving your butt? I know what I'm going to be doing!

Mike

 

[Crazy Chihuahua]

Originally posted by Robbo
Also,

Slaps can be used in many different ways,

1) As a auditory clue that your timing is correct.
2) As Mr. Chape`l mentioned a physical clue that your weapons are correctly aligned or on their way to being correctly aligned.
3) As a by-product of re-bounding.
4) As a means of setting the trajectory of your weapon (a upward lifting backfist should brush/slap the leg on the way towards it's target)
5) As a way of dispersing/generating power when practising alone without resistance.
6) As CC mentioned a way of knowing where your positioned checks are.
7)As a way of conditioning the body.

and I'm sure a bunch more but,

there are many different ways to execute the 'slap'.....remember to ask your instructor about the whys and hows.

Rob

Oh, sure, go for the multiple answers and show me up...Ha ha ha!

 

[kenpo_cory]

Originally posted by Doc
A simple experiment for you.

Stand in a horse stance
Execute an outward elbow to the side
lock it out and have someone gradually
push on it counter direction to the strike.

The results will be a gradual collapse and movement of the upper body until the stance, elbow, and upper body give way to a lack of structural integrity (for a variety of reasons).

Then let's execute the elbow again, but this time have the arm that is executing the outward elbow, "slap" the "opposite" shoulder and "slide" your arm across your body to execute the elbow.

Have someone push again. You should experience a significant increase in strength induced by proper structural integrity of the elbow and body and a directing of certain energy.

With proper training the human body responds tremendously and there is no loss of speed in the execution and efficiency and effectiveness reach maximum human potential.

The human body is stronger than steel and fragil as an egg from moment to moment. The secret is to be able to identify and create the moment you desire in yourself and your opponent and capitalize on it.

Tell me how the experiemnt goes.

I have a question about this Doc. Lets say that we're doing the outward elbow with the right arm. Wouldn't the left side of the body have a huge impact on structural integrity? What I'm asking is doesn't the positioning of the left shoulder and arm increase or decrease the effect of your alignment?