EPAK Slapping from another Systems Viewpoint.

[M F]

The Five Swords I know all striking is done with the right hand, the left hand guards the head

WhiteTiger, could you explain how the five swords you know is done? I have never seen a version of five-swords without at least two strikes with the left hand. A palm heel (eye gouge, or handsword) following the initial right outward handsword, and then an outward handsword just after the uppercut. I am curious how this technique would look without them. Thanks.

 

[pete]

sift through this thread for some variations of 5 swords...

http://martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=10595&perpage=15&pagenumber=1

pete.

 

[kenpo_cory]

Originally posted by Doc
"Slapping" is an extrememly complicated science of alignment and energy managemnent and resistence tool (among many uses) that all physical activities that demand maximum anatomical efficiency utilize. Sometimes it is not always obvious, but if its missing, than alignment etc, are sacrificed.

This is how the slapping was taught to me as well. The main reason my instructor said it was used for was alignment. It wasn't something he taught to the class at all though. I saw him doing it often enough that it made me question it.

 

[Doc]

I received a private e-mail regarding this string from someone who asked me how the "Positional Check" was related to the "Slap-Check." I told them I would respond here for public consumption.

The "Positional Check" was created by Mr. Parker for his conceptual creation of kenpo to replace, (in most instances) and to avoid, (I believe) teaching the very complex "Slap-checks." I do feel however he would have introduced and began teaching more intricate aspects of his personal art, (what he did as opposed to what he taught most) had he lived longer. The Positional Check is non-existent in SubLevel Four Kenpo. Human anatomy demands the body exercise symetrical balance with no passivity of opposing appendages in movement. To do so is to circumvent most efficient and natural anatomical movement of the body architecture, as well as cause excessive and premature deterioation of the body. ie hips, shoulders, knees, ankles, and cervicle.

 

[Brother John]

Originally posted by Doc
I received a private e-mail regarding this string from someone who asked me how the "Positional Check" was related to the "Slap-Check." I told them I would respond here for public consumption.

The "Positional Check" was created by Mr. Parker for his conceptual creation of kenpo to replace, (in most instances) and to avoid, (I believe) teaching the very complex "Slap-checks." I do feel however he would have introduced and began teaching more intricate aspects of his personal art, (what he did as opposed to what he taught most) had he lived longer. The Positional Check is non-existent in SubLevel Four Kenpo. Human anatomy demands the body exercise symetrical balance with no passivity of opposing appendages in movement. To do so is to circumvent most efficient and natural anatomical movement of the body architecture, as well as cause excessive and premature deterioation of the body. ie hips, shoulders, knees, ankles, and cervicle.

What is the purpose of a slap-check?
What diferentiates it from any other check?
Thanks
Your Brother
John

 

[WhiteTiger]

Originally posted by Doc
"Slapping" is an extrememly complicated science of alignment and energy managemnent and resistence tool (among many uses) that all physical activities that demand maximum anatomical efficiency utilize. Sometimes it is not always obvious, but if its missing, than alignment etc, are sacrificed.

Those who find no value in it should perhaps re-examine any available video of Ed Parker performing techniques and/or forms, and I further remind those of Mr. Parker's idea's about "wasted motion."

I am sorry but this sounds just like alot of double talk for, " we don't really know why but the "Old man" did it this way, and his example must not be questioned".

If your free hand is slapping your body how can it check an incomming attack? Every instant your guard is not between your opponents weapon and whatever target, it is that much longer that the target is vulnerable to his attack.

What is "rebounding"? Alignment of what? In relation to what?

I do know something about conservation of energy, and if you are slapping yourself with enough force to alter the position of your body, that is energy you are wasting by not directing it at your opponent.

 

[Doc]

Originally posted by WhiteTiger
I am sorry but this sounds just like alot of double talk for, " we don't really know why but the "Old man" did it this way, and his example must not be questioned".

I never suggested it could not be questioned because "Ed Parker did it." I simply used Mr. Parker as an example for those who might question its efficacy in American Kenpo. If the progenitor utilized it in his own exceution, it becomes difficult to repute its existence.

However whenever anyone is exposed to information beyond their knowledge, I'm sure it all sounds like "double talk" at some point. Although I am an educated man and reasonably worldly, my doctor, lawyers, and mechanic, all at some time or other have spoken "double talk" to me. Fortunately like they, (and of course Mr. Parker) I am capable of ultimately clarifying the validity of my statements.

If your free hand is slapping your body how can it check an incomming attack?

I never said it could or couldn't, (although it can), and I'm surprised you asked that question. That is a no-brainer and I'm sure someone here will fill you in.

Every instant your guard is not between your opponents weapon and whatever target, it is that much longer that the target is vulnerable to his attack.

? In your understanding that may be true, but I bet there are many here from American Kenpo who would engage you in a dialog on that one as well.

What is "rebounding"?

Simply, when a body part makes contact with something with sufficient energy to "bounce" and re-direct the energy in another direction.

Alignment of what?

Your body.

I do know something about conservation of energy, and if you are slapping yourself with enough force to alter the position of your body, that is energy you are wasting by not directing it at your opponent.

Your statement includes an assumption I have not included in any of my descriptions or definitions. Unfortunately your understanding of "energy" and its use appears to be, from my perspective, quite limited.

 

[WhiteTiger]

Forgive me Doc, but your replys offer no specific information or explainatons, only vague insinuation that these concepts are too complex for most kenpoists to understand. Judging by the posts in this thread, noone seems either willing or able to offer any explaination to this concept, so you may be right. But as someone with 20 years experience in martial arts and a graduate degree in engineering, there are few scientific principles that I have come across that I don't have at least a limited understanding of. Everything I have learned in kenpo thus far follows established scientific precepts, on the surface this "Slapping" seems to contridict them, lacking a detailed explaination it is impossible to make a determination.

If you could provide an example of the application and how the mechanics work, that might help several people understand it better.

 

[Doc]

Originally posted by WhiteTiger
Forgive me Doc, but your replys offer no specific information or explainatons, only vague insinuation that these concepts are too complex for most kenpoists to understand. Judging by the posts in this thread, noone seems either willing or able to offer any explaination to this concept, so you may be right. But as someone with 20 years experience in martial arts and a graduate degree in engineering, there are few scientific principles that I have come across that I don't have at least a limited understanding of. Everything I have learned in kenpo thus far follows established scientific precepts, on the surface this "Slapping" seems to contridict them, lacking a detailed explaination it is impossible to make a determination.

If you could provide an example of the application and how the mechanics work, that might help several people understand it better.

Fair enough and your points are well taken, but consider this: The basic laws of engineering and Newtonian Physics do not translate to human anatomical movement or action beyond a very superficial level, and the knowledge of human anatomical physics is almost non-existent in the martial arts. It is alive and well however in martial science. Some have taken to marketing the term, but few actually rise to the level of understanding necessary to call what they do a true "science."

I am more than sure you are an intelligent, educated, and competent individual. But the science of human movement, especially in martial interaction is extremely specialized and emcompasses a myriad of physical sciences all connected through the unstable human body. It is so specialized it cannot be learned through traditional formal education methods. However formal education can enhance the process.

Human dynamics deal with a complex living machine with hundreds of parts and connecting mechanisms and sensors that is/are in a constant state of flux and adjustment from one microsecound to the next. Also the body is not a solid so certain Newtonian Physical Laws applied to solid objects do not necessarily translate to human dynamics. The knowledge is passed from one to another. Take note that in professional athletics, most great coaches have no physics degrees yet have the ability to teach the dynamics of human physics at the highest level. Information accumulated over years of interaction with other teachers and coaches. The ones that excel develop the most effective methodologies.

A discussion here is like trying to tell someone how to technically perform a gymnastics "running round off flip flop to a pike and split." The variations are so great it is impossible to create "hard rules" of execution, and I've tried since the early seventies to write down my own lessons with some, albeit limited success.

Consider that the human body evolved under the weight of gravity or a constant unyielding resistence. Therefore the human skeleton and its structural integrity is inter-depedent on this resisting factor to achieve maximum efficiency and regidity.

But the human body as a machine has a unique "living" capability beyond the mechanical machine. A human body has the ability to function "inefficiently" and does so as a normal part of its everyday function. This is what allows humans to exhibit fluid movement and allows the machine to perform things "incorrectly" as well as correctly. But the human body is only supposed to momentarily slip into its inefficient mode for the sake of certain movement, and return immediately to a strong and efficent mode to prevent injury to the machine.

Repetitive inefficient movement (improper training) produces significant injury or "breakdowns" to the machine. This is why, absent blunt force trauma and externally induced hyperextended activity, the body can function for many years without "wearing out."

Unfortunately modern martial arts have been marketed around blunt force trauma and expeditious physical movement for "quick" acquisition of some functional skills in violation of human anatomy principles creating ignorant "Counter Anatomy Applications." Most teach asthetically drawing on "how" they think something should look, instead of "how" something should be properly executed relative to human anatomy.

The human body must dictate how all movements are executed for long term success and the ultimate development of "internal energy" and long term mechanical supremacy. Over the years I've seen so many people in and out of kenpo tear their bodies apart executing improper movements. Double hip replacement surgery, shoulder surgeries, knee and back injuries are rampant, all through improper dynamic movement that destroys rather than enhances the human machine.

This is also why when things are learned impropely, it doesn't take long for you to "lose" the ability to perform through inactivity or age. Proper anatomical movement sufficiently learned lasts a lifetime, even with extended inactivity. It is also why some "old men" seem to demonstrate significant speed and power with a minimum of movement beyond the younger more musclebound student.

A simple experiment for you.

Stand in a horse stance
Execute an outward elbow to the side
lock it out and have someone gradually
push on it counter direction to the strike.

The results will be a gradual collapse and movement of the upper body until the stance, elbow, and upper body give way to a lack of structural integrity (for a variety of reasons).

Then let's execute the elbow again, but this time have the arm that is executing the outward elbow, "slap" the "opposite" shoulder and "slide" your arm across your body to execute the elbow.

Have someone push again. You should experience a significant increase in strength induced by proper structural integrity of the elbow and body and a directing of certain energy.

With proper training the human body responds tremendously and there is no loss of speed in the execution and efficiency and effectiveness reach maximum human potential.

The human body is stronger than steel and fragil as an egg from moment to moment. The secret is to be able to identify and create the moment you desire in yourself and your opponent and capitalize on it.

Tell me how the experiemnt goes.

Thank you for your intelligent interaction.

 

[Dominic Jones]

Wow! a long but im my opinion a great reply by Doc.

Living in Japan I have limited access to personal instruction, Doc,
do you have any recommended texts, or subject areas that will help me improve my knowledge of anatomonically correct positions and movements. I have gained a small amount of experiential knowledge from being shown short simple experiments such as the one you describe above.

Also ones where:

shifting your body to forward movement e.g by planting forward with the front leg-makes the body stronger

Using a "slap check" to increase the power of certain strikes for example a downward hammerfist

Using a "possitional check" touching the body to improve the stability of a stance

These experiments work for me and I look for similiar situations within the kenpo sets, forms and techniques. But I`m almost completly lacking on the why-at the moment.

I do not believe you are teaching kenpo "magic" but that you have a higher level of knowledge than I posess.


I DON'T want people to think that my 14 plus years of EPAK training with the BKKU has been wasted. Far from it!! I consider Grandmaster Bob Rose and his Instructors to be excellent.

Unfortionately being 12,000 miles away I rarely see my instructors for hands on training.

Anantomically correct positions and movement is the next exciting avenue of study for me. Its now time for me to try to get more knowledge about the why.

Cheers Dom
PS. As mentioned in a separate thread I am also interested in how and why different breathing techniques (applied to the martial arts) work.

:asian:

 

[Touch Of Death]

Originally posted by WhiteTiger
Well it sure sounds technical, I guess it must be correct.....

I have to assume you are being sarcastic. I was speaking about this subject to a Kenpo freind of mine and we both agree that by bringing your hand all the way back to, at the very least, tap the return points of reference, your strikes are truer. These are also great times to make snap desiscions.(or should I say slap desiscions)
sean

 

[Touch Of Death]

Originally posted by WhiteTiger
I am sorry but this sounds just like alot of double talk for, " we don't really know why but the "Old man" did it this way, and his example must not be questioned".

If your free hand is slapping your body how can it check an incomming attack? Every instant your guard is not between your opponents weapon and whatever target, it is that much longer that the target is vulnerable to his attack.

What is "rebounding"? Alignment of what? In relation to what?

I do know something about conservation of energy, and if you are slapping yourself with enough force to alter the position of your body, that is energy you are wasting by not directing it at your opponent.

Just so I can be clearer, there are starting points of reference for certain strikes. These happen to be the points that we return to with such speed that a sound might occur. I would never recomend to some one that the left is only a check. Be that as it were you can check from the return point; so, it is not as if we are not checking.
Sean

 

[MisterMike]

A simple experiment for you.

I looked at this experiment and if the position of the outward elbow is the same in both cases, I would expect the results to be the same. The route or method applied to get to the outward elbow strike should not matter.

The outward elbow strike is braced because your fist should be tight against your chest at the point of completion.

yay, or nay?

 

[Goldendragon7]

At times they are used as timing devices when practicing alone.....

:asian:

 

[Touch Of Death]

Originally posted by Doc
Fair enough and your points are well taken, but consider this: The basic laws of engineering and Newtonian Physics do not translate to human anatomical movement or action beyond a very superficial level, and the knowledge of human anatomical physics is almost non-existent in the martial arts. It is alive and well however in martial science. Some have taken to marketing the term, but few actually rise to the level of understanding necessary to call what they do a true "science."

I am more than sure you are an intelligent, educated, and competent individual. But the science of human movement, especially in martial interaction is extremely specialized and emcompasses a myriad of physical sciences all connected through the unstable human body. It is so specialized it cannot be learned through traditional formal education methods. However formal education can enhance the process.

Human dynamics deal with a complex living machine with hundreds of parts and connecting mechanisms and sensors that is/are in a constant state of flux and adjustment from one microsecound to the next. Also the body is not a solid so certain Newtonian Physical Laws applied to solid objects do not necessarily translate to human dynamics. The knowledge is passed from one to another. Take note that in professional athletics, most great coaches have no physics degrees yet have the ability to teach the dynamics of human physics at the highest level. Information accumulated over years of interaction with other teachers and coaches. The ones that excel develop the most effective methodologies.

A discussion here is like trying to tell someone how to technically perform a gymnastics "running round off flip flop to a pike and split." The variations are so great it is impossible to create "hard rules" of execution, and I've tried since the early seventies to write down my own lessons with some, albeit limited success.

Consider that the human body evolved under the weight of gravity or a constant unyielding resistence. Therefore the human skeleton and its structural integrity is inter-depedent on this resisting factor to achieve maximum efficiency and regidity.

But the human body as a machine has a unique "living" capability beyond the mechanical machine. A human body has the ability to function "inefficiently" and does so as a normal part of its everyday function. This is what allows humans to exhibit fluid movement and allows the machine to perform things "incorrectly" as well as correctly. But the human body is only supposed to momentarily slip into its inefficient mode for the sake of certain movement, and return immediately to a strong and efficent mode to prevent injury to the machine.

Repetitive inefficient movement (improper training) produces significant injury or "breakdowns" to the machine. This is why, absent blunt force trauma and externally induced hyperextended activity, the body can function for many years without "wearing out."

Unfortunately modern martial arts have been marketed around blunt force trauma and expeditious physical movement for "quick" acquisition of some functional skills in violation of human anatomy principles creating ignorant "Counter Anatomy Applications." Most teach asthetically drawing on "how" they think something should look, instead of "how" something should be properly executed relative to human anatomy.

The human body must dictate how all movements are executed for long term success and the ultimate development of "internal energy" and long term mechanical supremacy. Over the years I've seen so many people in and out of kenpo tear their bodies apart executing improper movements. Double hip replacement surgery, shoulder surgeries, knee and back injuries are rampant, all through improper dynamic movement that destroys rather than enhances the human machine.

This is also why when things are learned impropely, it doesn't take long for you to "lose" the ability to perform through inactivity or age. Proper anatomical movement sufficiently learned lasts a lifetime, even with extended inactivity. It is also why some "old men" seem to demonstrate significant speed and power with a minimum of movement beyond the younger more musclebound student.

A simple experiment for you.

Stand in a horse stance
Execute an outward elbow to the side
lock it out and have someone gradually
push on it counter direction to the strike.

The results will be a gradual collapse and movement of the upper body until the stance, elbow, and upper body give way to a lack of structural integrity (for a variety of reasons).

Then let's execute the elbow again, but this time have the arm that is executing the outward elbow, "slap" the "opposite" shoulder and "slide" your arm across your body to execute the elbow.

Have someone push again. You should experience a significant increase in strength induced by proper structural integrity of the elbow and body and a directing of certain energy.

With proper training the human body responds tremendously and there is no loss of speed in the execution and efficiency and effectiveness reach maximum human potential.

The human body is stronger than steel and fragil as an egg from moment to moment. The secret is to be able to identify and create the moment you desire in yourself and your opponent and capitalize on it.

Tell me how the experiemnt goes.

Thank you for your intelligent interaction.

Doc,
great post and at times it sounded just like Skip. Great minds think alike, as Ed Parker used to say.
Sean

 

[Doc]

Originally posted by Touch'O'Death
Doc,
great post and at times it sounded just like Skip. Great minds think alike, as Ed Parker used to say.
Sean

As I know "Skip" to be intelligent and brilliant, I 'll take that as a pretty good compliment. Thank you and tell Skip I said "Hey Dude."

 

[Doc]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7
At times they are used as timing devices when practicing alone.....

:asian:

In some schools, but not in SubLevel Four. Everything is mechanically functional. Timing is dictated by other factors, AND where's my book?

 

[Doc]

Originally posted by MisterMike
I looked at this experiment and if the position of the outward elbow is the same in both cases, I would expect the results to be the same.

There's your problem. You only "looked."

The route or method applied to get to the outward elbow strike should not matter.

Sorry sir, but you couldn't be more incorrect.

The outward elbow strike is braced because your fist should be tight against your chest at the point of completion.

Not in human anatomy correctly executed for maximum efficiency and structural integrity.

yay, or nay?

A very huge, gargantuan, monumental NAY. If there was no difference, there would be no reason for the experiment. Now do your homework or i'll have to take out my red marker.

 

[Doc]

Originally posted by Brother John
What is the purpose of a slap-check?
What diferentiates it from any other check?
Thanks
Your Brother
John

"Slapping" is an extrememly complicated science of alignment and energy managemnent and resistence tool (among its many uses) that all physical activities that demand maximum anatomical efficiency utilize.

A "Slap-Check" is not really a "check" although it can be used for "checking" in elementary interpretations of the art. The term "Pak-Sao" or "Slapping/Checking Hand" originated in Traditional Chinese Arts like Wing Chun, Hung Gar, and Slapping Hands. Although Wing Chun uses it as a "checking" action with other constituants like some kenpo, Hung Gar and Slapping Hands go well beyond that application.

Ed Parker used the term "pak-sao" until he converted to English Only terminology, and he changed it to a "Slap-Check" even though at higher levels it is not. To my knowledge Parker never wrote about or taught the "how' or "why" of his "Slap-Checks," and in fact purposely made no references to them and replaced them with the term "Positional Check" when he began the creation of his "manuals." The term exists nowhere, despite the obvious "Slapping" Ed Parker used in his own execution. Makes you wonder what else he held back from most. Ya think?

 

[WhiteTiger]

Originally posted by Doc
Fair enough and your points are well taken, but consider this: The basic laws of engineering and Newtonian Physics do not translate to human anatomical movement or action beyond a very superficial level, and the knowledge of human anatomical physics is almost non-existent in the martial arts. It is alive and well however in martial science. Some have taken to marketing the term, but few actually rise to the level of understanding necessary to call what they do a true "science."

A simple experiment for you.

Stand in a horse stance
Execute an outward elbow to the side
lock it out and have someone gradually
push on it counter direction to the strike.

The results will be a gradual collapse and movement of the upper body until the stance, elbow, and upper body give way to a lack of structural integrity (for a variety of reasons).

Then let's execute the elbow again, but this time have the arm that is executing the outward elbow, "slap" the "opposite" shoulder and "slide" your arm across your body to execute the elbow.

Have someone push again. You should experience a significant increase in strength induced by proper structural integrity of the elbow and body and a directing of certain energy.

With proper training the human body responds tremendously and there is no loss of speed in the execution and efficiency and effectiveness reach maximum human potential.

The human body is stronger than steel and fragil as an egg from moment to moment. The secret is to be able to identify and create the moment you desire in yourself and your opponent and capitalize on it.

Tell me how the experiemnt goes.

Thank you for your intelligent interaction.

I have analyzed your experiment, and I think I understand where your coming from here. But in this example you are trading off other efficiencies to gain proper anatomical form. If your weapon, at any time for any reason moves away from the target, the time you will take to get to the target will increase, as well as telegraphing your intentions. The human body can only move so fast, when velocity is fixed, distance and time are one and the same.

I can see as the body ages proper anatomical form becomes more and more important in order to avoid injury. As in may cases with Martial Arts applications how you deliver any one attack will depend on what you are trying to acheive. Using this example you gain rigidity in your weapon but you sacrifice the ability marry additional forces into your execution.

I must agree with Mike however, slapping the opposite shoulder is not a prerequisite as long as you execute the elbow with the same anatomical alignment. But I can see that slapping the opposite shoulder does aid in acheiving this alignment.