Does this happen in this day and age?

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Talk' started by Sylo, Dec 14, 2008.

  1. Sylo

    Sylo Purple Belt

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    Ha....

    This is not even a question.

    See thats my point. I can't agree that either of these video's are "good". This one is obviously a Mcdojo, and is 100% exactly what happens at schools like that.

    The other video, because we don't know anything else other than what the video shows us.. looks like unstructured brawling in my eyes. Let me see if I can dig up a video of what I would consider a "good" test of sparring skill. I'm not sure youtube has any. My school is not like either of these videos. We spar hard, but we spar alot safer and alot more controlled and skillful than these guys do.
     
  2. BrandonLucas

    BrandonLucas 3rd Black Belt

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    I agree with much of what you're saying as well, and I understand that different schools and different martial arts are going to be taught differently.

    I'm not looking for perfect technique in form or sparring. I'm really not, because I understand that in a SD situation, like Tez pointed out, your technique isn't going to be what it is in class, more than likely...so if you train that way, you'll be better prepared if the time ever comes to defend yourself.

    I don't think I'm far off the mark about this particular school not being any better than a McDojo, though. It's true that tough training is better than soft, unrealistic practice. But I don't agree that if the training is unrefined, that it would still make it a legit school. To me, their technique wasn't so much unrefined as it was almost non-existant.

    It appears to me that what they're doing is just trying to hurt eachother, which is, what I think, was the concern in the OP. Now, it doesn't appear that it was necessarily full force, but they were obviously hitting hard enough to hurt eachother, which appeared to be the goal.

    I'm not as concerned, however, with the amount of impact that was behind the punches and kicks. I applaud them for hitting that hard, and wish more schools would adopt that way of thinking again. In that aspect, I can see how the video can be compared to old-school training.

    What I don't agree with is the method and intent in which they are hitting each other. They aren't sparring to end the fight quickly...they aren't sparring to show correct technique in a real fight situation....they certainly aren't point sparring (thankfully!)...but it appears to me that they are simply trying to just inflict damage to their opponent for the sake of inflicting damage. There is no rhyme or reason for the vast majority of the techniques thrown.

    The person testing continuously throws haymakers to each opponents jaw, usually with little success. Almost the entire time he's fighting he does this, with little deviation from his "plan of attack". At no point does he change up his attack...at no point does he appear to realize that what he's doing isn't working...he simply continues to throw wild punches until 1 or 2 land. The leg kicks did appear to be somewhat effective, except that he didn't appear to understand how to use them effectively...he did the same with the kicks that he did with the punches, just throwing them until they landed.

    The reason that this is no better than a McDojo, to me, is that while they are training in a hard fashion, they are not actually being taught anything about how to defend themselves. It looked from the video that the person testing was tough naturally, since there was no actual technique used from any of his opponents or from him. No one showed any knowlege of locks, holds, throws, kicks, punches or blocks. It didn't appear to be anything other than a street brawl against different opponents.

    I'm not so much concerned about the form. I do understand that some schools don't put much emphasis on forms, which is another topic all together. I'm not saying that the stances have to be perfect, or the puches and kicks need to be stiff. The form really just backs up what the sparring was like, for me.
     
  3. Tez3

    Tez3 Sr. Grandmaster

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    Ah here we are ripping some Dojo to pieces because we've seen a few minutes on U Tube.
    How easy it is to criticise others, how easy it is to feel 'well we do it right' when we know nothing about the people in the clip.
    the advice being given on MT to people is that if you're happy with what you're doing, do it. yet here we are taking an unknown to pieces over techniques, style, intentisity and the poor chap has no right of reply. We've tried in all fairness to come up with reasons and explainations in lieu of the Dojo itself being able to explain.
    There's nothing wrong with the intensity of the sparring to my mind, the techniques, well I have an open mind and prefer not to criticise without the person being able to have the right of reply.
    We can all pick out stuff of U Tube we don't like, there's enough stuff out there goodness knows. perhaps we should stick to things where the person in the video can answer back rather than have every single part of him picked over and panned.
     
  4. Sylo

    Sylo Purple Belt

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    Maybe they do train haymakers. But, the point here is.. obviously they aren't teaching them proper use. As has already been pointed out. He's throwing the same 1/2 moves and never deviating from that. He looks to me like he WANTS to knock these people out. He doesn't want to subdue them quickly. If it were me and I knew I had to fight 10 people in succession. My training would lead me to want to deal with these fighters as fast as possible. By doing the most effective fight ending stuff first. We don't know what the rules of these matches were, other than it looks like there were none. What constitutes a fight ender here? Obviously he hurt the 1 guy's leg with the leg kick. And he busted at least one guys nose. Now, in normal circumstances neither of these things would end a fight. So how do you judge what would? He just doesn't like like he's trying to do anything but hurt these people. If you haven't landed anything after the 17th haymaker.. DO SOMETHING ELSE. He's overpowering most of these guys simply because he is bigger in some cases. He does look intimidating at times, and to me a tad cocky. Especially when he knocks them down or hurts them. I don't see respect either between fighters.. at certain points.. the guys he is beating down look like they are about to get mad and let anger get involved..

    thats just how I view it.
     
  5. BrandonLucas

    BrandonLucas 3rd Black Belt

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    We seem to have alot of the same ideas, but we're looking at them differently, I think.

    Your example for using the instep is a good example...and I'll add to that, if I may...

    I am taught to kick with my instep and the ball of my foot in class...however, I rarely kick this way. I use my shin, as it covers a greater range, can generate more force, and is less likely to be injured. That being said, I understand the need to adapt my attack, and I use it regularly.

    The person testing did not change or adapt his methods of attack...which would indicate that he didn't learn anything about using the attacks that were taught, even if they were, in fact, haymakers.

    In order for a martial art to be effective, the person learning the art must be able to adapt to the fight. The person testing did not do this at all...just kept plugging away with wild punches and kicks.
     
  6. Sylo

    Sylo Purple Belt

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    I'll go with this.

    There are just going to be differing opinions we are human after all. Noone is right or wrong in this case.. its preference imo.

    I don't think ATA/NASKA/WTF sparring should be even considered part of the martial arts.. and there are others who will defend it til death.

    so.. to each his own.
     
  7. BrandonLucas

    BrandonLucas 3rd Black Belt

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    Please understand, this is nothing more than an enjoyable debate to me...I'm not out to bash anyone's school or art or anything of that nature.

    Like I said before, there are many unknowns from the video...all we have to go on is what is presented within the video itself. The video is up for scrutiny, IMO, simply because it was posted for public viewing. If the dojo is concerned about bad publicity, or if the person testing didn't want the general public to see the video, I don't think it would have been posted.

    But, again, I'm seriously not trying to bash any of this. I'm not saying that my way of training is superior or anything of that nature, either...I'm just pointing out that while it may not be as "brutal" to some as it was to Sylo, I think it bears mentioning that it also wasn't effective. And if we're to get a picture of what the dojo is like from that video, I personally wouldn't be impressed. But, to be fair, I don't think that the video was meant to be a direct representation of the dojo itself, rather, it was meant to show the ability of the student testing for blackbelt.

    However, when a student becomes blackbelt from a dojo, they, at that point, represent the dojo in their training...so, in a way, the video does, in fact, represent what's being taught.

    Just wanted to clear up where I'm coming from with this....I'm not trying to bash anyone or anything...just discussing.
     
  8. elder999

    elder999 El Oso de Dios!

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    Just a couple of things.

    Someone mentioned things on the vid looking "ghetto" to them. Not 100% sure what they meant, but I thought I'd just point out that when it comes to fighting arts, "ghetto" is sometimes the way to go: kajukenbo came from what was essentially a ghetto. Back in the day, Fred Hamilton's dojo in Harlem, while mostly straight up shotokan, produced some good fighters. Miyama ryu was created in what some would call a ghetto. What I'm trying to say is that when it comes to applying a martial art, an environment like a ghetto, where people are more likely to have to use their skills in self-defense, becomes an excellent laboratory for development of martial skills.

    As far as the content of the vid, well, yes, it looks sloppy, but we have no real context: no idea of what "rules" there were, if any, no idea of how long it had been going on, only that it was part of a test. I'll point out that if you think you're going to look like you do when you're sparring when you have to defend yourself in the streets, you're wrong. I'll also point out that fatigue and pressure are one analogue one can use in training for the fear, stress and physical reaction to adrenaline that take place in a real self defense situation.

    I don't have any video of any of my tests, regretfully-I can say that towards the end of some of them, I'm sure that I looked just as sloppy. I don't have video of me in a 10 man kumite, or 15, or 30, or 50, but I can say that each time I'm pretty certain I felt like I looked just as sloppy after the 5th or 6th man. I'm dead certain I looked just as sloppy after the 10th or 11th. :lol:

    As far as "brutality" goes, I'll offer the following:

    Shokei Matsui was something of kyokushin prodigy. He earned 1st dan in a year, at age 14,and won many championships in Japan, all fought with kyokushin type rules: full contact, leg kicks permitted, throwing permitted.
    Until he did it, in 1986, men who tested themselves with the 100 man kumite were permitted to do it over the course of two days.

    He took 4 hours.

    (I think it took me something like 6 hours to fight 50. :lfao:)

    Considered a test for advanced kyokushin practitioners, and those off shoots of kyokushin-as well, perhaps,asanyone who decides to do it-the 100 man kumite is pretty simple, as far as rules go: kyokushin rules, full contact, leg kicks and throws permitted, knockdowns apply.One two minute round per man,(now). No undue breaks. Each man is fresh. The man being tested has to score a full point, then it's on to the next man. He also has to clearly have won 50% of the contests-he can't have too many points scored on him.

    Here's a video of Shokei Matsui, sensei, showing him working out, highlights of some of his bouts at championships, and, at 1:54 in, portions of his 100 man kumite. If you look to the right, you'll occasionally see a sign showing the number of the man he's contesting against. While his form is, as far as I'm concerned, peerless, you'll see that as time goes on, his "sloppiness" becomes apparent, even to a layman, I would think.

    Shokei Matsui 100 man kumite
     
  9. BrandonLucas

    BrandonLucas 3rd Black Belt

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    In terms of the "ghetto" reference, I tend to agree with you. If you need to augment your style of fighting to fit your surroundings, then by all means, apply what you know and adjust. The problem is that none of the students adjusted their method of attack and defense. If something didn't work, they just continued to throw the attack until it eventually did work...it wasn't just the person testing, but each opponent did this as well...that's what worries me about what is being taught.

    But that is not what happened in that video. The guy looked fairly fresh in the first fight shown, and it gets to be pretty apparent when he's at the end of the matches. Given what's shown, I'm not going to assume that he was tired or exhausted enough to warrant the brawling that was done.

    The video you posted of Shokei Matsui shouldn't be compared to the video in the OP. First, Shokei Matsui was awesome to say the least. But, even taking that into consideration, there are actual techniques thrown by both opponents...it doesn't look anything like a street brawl like the original video did.

    Now, I do understand and agree that realistic fighting is not going to resemble what actual sparring looks like...but I've seen enough real fights to know that what they were doing in that class wasn't impressive even on those terms.

    The one aspect that would change part of my view on the video is if each fight was actually timed, and the end of the fight was based on time running out rather than the opponent being put out of fighting commision or the instructor ordering them out. I do understand that he would need to be active for whatever the time limit calls for, but if you really look at the activity that he's showing during the matches, it's really nothing effective at all. He just randomly throws punches and kicks, and it seems like he's hoping that something will land.
     
  10. Sylo

    Sylo Purple Belt

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    To me, this doesn't look as brutal. I think because we can clearly tell what the rules are, and when a fight stops/starts. He also looks like he knows exactly what he's doing, and is using the most effective techniques to end the fights with. He's not trying to slug it out, like the guy in the video I posted was. He's being methodical in his attacks. None of these fights are lasting longer than a few secs to a minute. He's using his skill to end the fights quickly with as little effort on his part as possible.

    I kind of wish we did this, watching it. I see this video in a completely different light than the one I posted. This guy knows his stuff, and even when winded and sloppy.. it still looks like he is careful gauging what to do next and not just trying to force his way through.
     
  11. elder999

    elder999 El Oso de Dios!

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    Yeah, but you have to keep in mind that in '86, when that took place, he was 4th dan, with 13 years of training, and a couple of world championships-as I said, peerless.
     
  12. BrandonLucas

    BrandonLucas 3rd Black Belt

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    Watch his opponents as well. None of them looked that bad...it was obvious that he clearly was better than the rest of them, but if you watch his opponents, you can get an idea of how someone of more "ordinary" status and rank would perform....and it still looks better than the original video did, IMO.
     
  13. Sylo

    Sylo Purple Belt

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    On this note. Another put off of this school.. just purely going off this video with no other evidence. Clearly in the Last video, we saw defined rules and regulations for each fight. The fights were clearly "ended". In my video, the rules didn't to be clear and it seemed as if the teacher was sending in the other fighters at his own discretion vs. a time limit or a "fight ending" move.
     
  14. elder999

    elder999 El Oso de Dios!

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    Well, yeah-it was in Japan. A lot easier to assemble 100 dan grade men, just to begin with, and, like it or not, the training standard was generally higher there than what you'er going to find in your run of the mill basement dojo in the U.S.

    I agree, and that wouldn't be all that hard anyway :lol:. There's no comparison-nor was one intended. It was just to demonstrate that what's shown in the OP isn't all that brutal at all-and, believe me Sylo, that 100 man kumite was fairly brutal. If you look closely, somewhere around bout #48-54, Matsui sensei takes several really hard punches to the body, and his physical reaction is visible....
     
  15. Sylo

    Sylo Purple Belt

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    Body punches always LOOK less brutal than punches directly to the face.
     
  16. BrandonLucas

    BrandonLucas 3rd Black Belt

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    In terms of brutality, I think the main difference is that the video you posted has clear intentions of the techniques. In other words, each time a punch or kick is thrown, it has purpose and direction. The power with which the techniques were delivered with appropriate force...i.e., if the punch or kick was meant to lead to another technique, the force that the puch or kick was thrown with wouldn't prohibit another technique to follow, or for the direction of the fighter to change, if need be.

    In the orginal video, the puches and kicks were thrown at random, with the sole intention of having KO power. There was no action/reaction, only random puches and kicks being thrown at what appears to be full force or something close to full force.
     
  17. Tez3

    Tez3 Sr. Grandmaster

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    You do realise it never said he passed?
     
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  18. Sylo

    Sylo Purple Belt

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    Your right it doesn't.

    For all we know this could just be a bunch of guys who decided to order a few karate gi's from century.. and battle it out in someone's basement for the heck of it.

    But its fun to speculate, and it gives myself and BrandonLucas something to do at work besides work (we work at the same company, go to the same TKD school, and Play in the same band together) I think we need to stop hanging out.. its getting weird.. lol
     
  19. Gordon Nore

    Gordon Nore Senior Master

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    Fred Hamilton's name rings a bell. I found this (http://www.usadojo.com/biographies/fred-hamilton.htm), but I seem to recall his dojo being featured in a documentary about martial arts that was made in the seventies.

    That would be nice to know. We only saw him do one kata and a little kihon kumite, which is not to say he didn't do more. If his test only lasted the duration of the video, well, I've seen rank handed out for less. It was intense, and his job was to get through it.

    LOL. I was flat on the mats after fighting six people in varying combinations, and my sensei told the others to remove my pads for me because I was out of it. I was calling out, "Shins, shins...," asking someone to take off my shin pads, not knowing this had already been done. (Yes, pads everywhere -- complete and total wuss.) Then sensei gave me whiff of smelling salts.

    I've been trained with the sense that the dan grading breaks the student down. Crisp technique begins to fall away, and the candidate is working with whatever is left, whether's s/he doing kumite, kata, or whatever. It goes as far as the candidate can go. All the younger, stronger men that I've seen grade were brought down to that last raw nerve -- the only difference being it took longer to do it with them than it did with me.

    Conversely, I've also seen Aikido dan gradings where it takes twenty minutes, but absolutely everything gets thrown at the candidate in that time, and the result has to be seamless. It's a different groove. Here's six minutes of my Hapkido teacher's Aikido sandan: Everything but the kitchen sink thrown at him in a short period time. This sort of testing, done really well, is just as evocative the student's passion and skill.

    This is astonishing. This is kumite that I get really excited watching. You do see Matsui faltering slightly under the weight of this task. I spotted one part where he looked like he couldn't lift his own arms. His above-the-belt kicking is really three kicks that I saw: leading round, spinning hook, and a few spinning side-kicks. That's the whole repetoire, and that's makes this masterful to me -- every every single one of those kick ans strikes is money. "Peerless" is the word for it.

    Thanks for sharing that. This is really humbling to watch.

    PS: Never fought fifty guys in my life.
     
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  20. SenseiBear

    SenseiBear Blue Belt

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    Does what happen? sparring during a test? The testing candidate was a little uncontrolled fighting the purple belts, so I was glad the black belts gave him a little bit back -

    But did not look that extreme for mid contact sparring...

    The form pieces at the beginning looked like a chunk out of Seiuchin Kata...123
     

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