Does this happen in this day and age?

[dancingalone]

Fear will never be a part of a controlled class setting. I'm not ever going to be scared of someone I see 3 times a week, that I joke around with, and enjoy my class time with. I'm not going to all of a sudden become angry at this person for 3 minutes at a testing. We spar as hard as these guys are doing at my school.. but we at least wear shin guards and headgear/mouth piece. We also don't punch directly to the face. The head is fine, but not to the face. The fact that they didn't get injured doesn't change the fact that they easily could have.

As brandon explained..

at our 1st dan tests..

we will be subject to spar 1 on 1 with semi to heavy contact, then we will spar 2 on 1, and then possibly 3 on 1. 3 minute rounds of each, maybe multiple rounds. I will be moving, and executing the entire time. I will be just as tired as this guy is, and I will have pushed myself just as far as this guy did. But, I will have lessened the risk of leaving with any broken bones. I think you guys think I am afraid of pain, and don't want it to "hurt". Thats far from the truth. It should hurt, but It should still be safe. Getting hit with a haymaker to the jaw at pretty good force, doesn't seem all that safe to me. I have enough issues, don't want wires in my face. I'd rather exert all my force with gear, than pull my moves because we aren't wearing anything to keep me from seriously injuring myself or them.

My experiences were considerably different. The first thing my teacher taught was you must be rid of your fear of being struck - the flinch reflex must be eradicated before you can learn anything of substance. Sure you can practice footwork, learn a few kicks or punches, etc, but the mastery of the advanced material will elude one if one if constantly shirking from contact or worse freezing up and closing one's eyes.

Part of eradicating fear involved lots of lots of hitting. From Sensei, from your sempai, from your classmates. It's just part of martial arts in my opinion.

I understand everyone has their own ideas, but I see nothing brutal or out of the ordinary within these videos. It's not exactly my idea of a black belt test, but I respect it more than many that I have seen on Youtube.

 

[MJS]

I can't seem to edit the original. can someone help?

I can offer some assistance. What is it you're trying to do?

 

[BrandonLucas]

My experiences were considerably different. The first thing my teacher taught was you must be rid of your fear of being struck - the flinch reflex must be eradicated before you can learn anything of substance. Sure you can practice footwork, learn a few kicks or punches, etc, but the mastery of the advanced material will elude one if one if constantly shirking from contact or worse freezing up and closing one's eyes.

Part of eradicating fear involved lots of lots of hitting. From Sensei, from your sempai, from your classmates. It's just part of martial arts in my opinion.

I understand everyone has their own ideas, but I see nothing brutal or out of the ordinary within these videos. It's not exactly my idea of a black belt test, but I respect it more than many that I have seen on Youtube.

I can agree with your point of view...but...

Go back and watch the video from start to finish, and then explain how any of what the guy did resembled anything to do with a martial art, other than throwing his leg at the other guy in an awkward fashion.

It was nothing but brawling from start to finish, pure and simple. And while I give the guy huge props for being able to last that long going that hard against that many people, it shows absolutely nothing of his martial arts skill...only that he has the ability to brawl for a long time....and not very well, in my opinion.

Like it was stated before, we may not be seeing what all exactly is included in the test, or what the true purpose of the test was supposed to be...but I seriously hope it wasn't a test on using techniques that were taught within that martial art. The guy can hit hard, and can take some pretty hard hits himself...but I still don't see how this could be any kind of test of actual martial skill....not to mention that some of the white belts that he fought were giving him a run for his money while he was still fresh.

 

[dancingalone]

Go back and watch the video from start to finish, and then explain how any of what the guy did resembled anything to do with a martial art, other than throwing his leg at the other guy in an awkward fashion.

It was nothing but brawling from start to finish, pure and simple. And while I give the guy huge props for being able to last that long going that hard against that many people, it shows absolutely nothing of his martial arts skill...only that he has the ability to brawl for a long time....and not very well, in my opinion.

Well sure. There's a lot about his technique as well as understanding of range that I would critique. His stances in his kata are not exacting either; he stands too high and his center of gravity is somewhere above his hips. If I hadn't recognized the trademark cat stances, albeit executed in an interesting manner, I would have pegged him for a Kyokushin guy.

Lots to work on, but he surely knows that. Still, his school looks to be light years above the McDojo on the corner of the block. I have nothing bad to say about them.

 

[Sylo]

Well sure. There's a lot about his technique as well as understanding of range that I would critique. His stances in his kata are not exacting either; he stands too high and his center of gravity is somewhere above his hips. If I hadn't recognized the trademark cat stances, albeit executed in an interesting manner, I would have pegged him for a Kyokushin guy.

Lots to work on, but he surely knows that. Still, his school looks to be light years above the McDojo on the corner of the block. I have nothing bad to say about them.

And so it goes back to that.

Maybe I'm wrong in what I thought the definition of mcdojo.. seems we need to find a new term.

Mcdojo = school hell bent on finding any and all ways to charge you money for everything. They don't care about anything other than money. Everything else is tossed out the window.

Crapojo = school who doesn't seem to be out of line in anything other than the instruction, which is mediocre or just plain wrong.

I don't think we know enough about these guys to make any sort of informed decision on what kind of school they are. Its pretty "ghetto" for a lack of a better term.. but thats about all I can say about it. Looks aren't everything though.

 

[dancingalone]

And so it goes back to that.
Maybe I'm wrong in what I thought the definition of mcdojo.. seems we need to find a new term.

....
I don't think we know enough about these guys to make any sort of informed decision on what kind of school they are

<shrugs> Poor quality = poor quality whatever term you want to use. 'Ghetto' sensibilities aside, the effort and desire shown in that video is light years beyond many other such videos I've seen. I can tell that much. If it's not for you, great.

 

[Brian King]

*Off topic sorry* but there have been several posts referenced.

“Mod Note: Content Warning – Language”

Thank You.

BrandonLucas wrote

“Not to mention this request could have been posted with a slightly better "tone".

You are probably correct. I should have just reported the post with that triangle symbol thingy but I thought a word to the wise would result in a warning being posted. In this case it took two separate posts but only one day so that is not too bad. I thought it worth it so that Sylo and others posting links in the future would maybe take a moment to post a warning if they feel the need to post a link that is offensive. My bad...sorry Bob.

“I think we all share your concern as far as the language goes, but I think it's also fair to say that it was an honest oversight, and before you attempt to open any other videos from any website or forum, it's usually best to have your speakers either muted or very, very low.”

That is of course good advice for those that are able to watch videos while at work. It is in my opinion, up to the people posting on this forum to be aware of what they are posting. The responsibility is theirs. If a woman gets raped do you blame the girl for the way she dresses or for being out late at night or do you blame the rapist?

Some lessons I have learned LOL, some the hard way. When we post on a public forum we should be aware that it not only can it be out there forever but that it represents who we are and what we think at that particular moment in our lives. If we post in haste with lots of spelling and grammar errors it shows that we do not care, it is like dressing in wrinkled clothing picked up off the floor. If we post using offensive language it shows that we not only have limited vocabulary but that we are selfish feeling that we have to vent no matter who might be reading. If we post things that are incorrect and do not attempt to correct those things it shows that we are unprofessional in our attitude.

In the first post Sylo said that he found this video the other day while surfing. And then later posted the explanation that he was watching the video at work with no speakers so didn’t actually hear the audio. He also said that had he known about the foul language he would have issued a warning. Then eagerly returned to the subject of the post and the controversy he was working thru without attempting to post a warning. This eagerness is very understandable and I can totally emphasize with wanting to defend views and to clarify posts. Again this is my opinion but if you have a video/article link, especially if you have it for a lengthy time period, you should know what you have before you post it. I remember that MMA star (Matt Hughes I think?) who had his picture taken holding up a fans t-shirt. The logo and web site on the t-shirt was tied to some kind of raciest web site and Mr. Hughes had to defend himself from charges of racism. It is sloppy. If we are sloppy in our posting, when we control the time that we have to post, I believe it reflects on our nature. Rather than telling people that click on links they should have their speakers off it would be wiser I feel to take a moment and check what we are posting. But that might just be me. I do now know that any link that Sylo posts is suspect and I will probably not bother to open it at all, no matter at home or at work. Once bitten twice shy and all that. I do not think he is a bad person or evil or anything like that quite the opposite rather, still, he was not willing to take the time to check what he was posting and when made aware of what he was posting did nothing to remedy the oversight until a second notice. I am grateful that he finally did seek to remedy the omission and a warning was placed in the OP. Perhaps a lesson learned?

BrandonLucas I applaud you defending your friend/student. That is nice and loyalty should always be recognized and lauded. I am sorry you did not like my “tone”. I apologize since the tone of one or both of my posts seems to have offended you especially since neither was addressed to you LOL at least I did not subject you to unwanted foul language. Believe it or not the second post was edited several times toning down my disappointment that no attempt was made to correct the oversight other than admitting it was an oversight, I am afraid that I am much like a bull in a china shop when it comes to being tactful and civil and often have to figuratively bite my tongue and count to ten before even organizing my thoughts into a rational conversation let alone before hitting the enter button on anything that I have written. Even with that I often fail and offend rather than communicate in my attempts to be honest without being needlessly offensive. LOL I have even waited days and sought others opinions before deciding to post or not to post on some threads here on MT because I am aware of my nature and that I can be rather terse and mean with my writing. I continue to work on this short coming and thank you for the reminder that much work is still needed.

Blindside wrote

“As for the people offended, you have a volume knob, use it.”

Actually sir, I just closed the window and did not finish watching the video. If there had been a warning I would not have opened the link to begin with. When CD’s and movies are sold they have warning labels on the covers, when movies or shows are shown on Television or in theaters they have ratings so that people are not surprised. If I go into a seedy bar I can expect to hear foul language so I limit my exposure to those places, the 3 S rule applies. I do not expect to hear unnecessary foul language from links here on MT. There are other MA forums that have lots of foul language both written in the posts and on the links posted. I do not visit or contribute to those forums. Martial Talk has higher standards and the people that post here also have higher standards or should have higher standards. I agree that there is an off switch and a volume knob and do use both but I also appreciate a little advanced notice of when I will have to use them. The language was offensive by definition but I was not offended. I have little respect for those that are compelled to use foul language unnecessarily and even less for those that earn money doing so yet do not call for censorship just the right to not be assaulted it. Those that enjoy that stuff are welcomed to it, just keep it to yourselves and allow me to avoid it. Is that too much to ask?

Regards
Brian King

 

[Tez3]

I think what we have developing is a discussion on musical tastes, there are many people who think that Emimem is a valid musician and has as much right to be heard as Beethoven, many however find his music offensive.
Did I find it offensive? No. I have to say I didn't. It's part of youth culture ( and now I'm going to sound soooo old!) it's music that many of my students listen too, my son listens to, a warning perhaps that the music was rap would have been enough to my mind. When we train in the adults class it will be on the stereo. It's a musical genre that is very popular and as with much music tells a story.
I don't use a computer at work, the civilians I know who do wouldn't have their computers speakers up loud enough to bother anyone if they played something like that.

About the content of the video, whether the techniques used were skilful or not, the intensity of the sparring wasn't such that it was brutal or unusual. It was semi contact sparring seen most weekends in karate competitions up and down the country. It's miles away from the TKD we've seen at the Olympics and it's not as full contact as MMA. As Dancingalone says if thats not for you fine but don't brand those of us who actually spar like we mean it as being brutal for this day and age! Looking down your noses at people who are trying to train sincerely isn't helpful.

 

[Sylo]

I think what we have developing is a discussion on musical tastes, there are many people who think that Emimem is a valid musician and has as much right to be heard as Beethoven, many however find his music offensive.
Did I find it offensive? No. I have to say I didn't. It's part of youth culture ( and now I'm going to sound soooo old!) it's music that many of my students listen too, my son listens to, a warning perhaps that the music was rap would have been enough to my mind. When we train in the adults class it will be on the stereo. It's a musical genre that is very popular and as with much music tells a story.
I don't use a computer at work, the civilians I know who do wouldn't have their computers speakers up loud enough to bother anyone if they played something like that.

About the content of the video, whether the techniques used were skilful or not, the intensity of the sparring wasn't such that it was brutal or unusual. It was semi contact sparring seen most weekends in karate competitions up and down the country. It's miles away from the TKD we've seen at the Olympics and it's not as full contact as MMA. As Dancingalone says if thats not for you fine but don't brand those of us who actually spar like we mean it as being brutal for this day and age! Looking down your noses at people who are trying to train sincerely isn't helpful.

We spar more like the guys in the video than we do the Olympics. We just wear at least some safety gear when we do it. We spar pretty hard as well. Its not light contact. Not looking down at you guys at all. Some parts of that video look worse than others.

As for the warning about the audio. I'm trying to get that fixed. It may have been faster to just have reported the thread in the first place if it was that offensive. I am tyring to take the steps to get it corrected.

 

[Sylo]

I can offer some assistance. What is it you're trying to do?

I'm trying to edit the original post with a warning about the music in the background.

 

[Tez3]

I'm trying to edit the original post with a warning about the music in the background.

I think a warning that its rap music would be enough, you could offend a lot of other people by posting up that their favourite music is offensive!

 

[Sylo]

I think a warning that its rap music would be enough, you could offend a lot of other people by posting up that their favourite music is offensive!

I was just going to say something like...

(Advisory Notice: Music may be Offensive to some listeners)

 

[BrandonLucas]

Ok, on the topic of offensive material:

Bob posted a note on one of the pages of this thread that the material subjected to this site should be within the realm of the rules and regulations set by admin and the mods. I also know that there is now a warning on the OP, so no harm no foul...

But I don't want any one person taking the blame...it's a double-edged sword. Sylo should have gone back and attempted to edit the OP when notified that there was offensive language, and by the same token, I think it's a wise thing to be careful and wary of what you open and when you open it. I'm at work while posting this, and we have rules against surfing...now, that doesn't really mean that I'm not going to surf at all, but rather, I'm going to be careful while I'm surfing. So for anyone who reads this, I would advise on both sides of the issue, be careful of what you post, and also be aware of what you open before you open it...have your speakers either low or off, and read any comments about the material first...and if posting a video or link, please be mindful of anything offensive or not safe for work.

Now, on to the video itself:

I'm not bashing the video for being semi or full contact. That's not the issue for me. For me, it's more about the fact that this was supposed to be a blackbelt test. I still don't see anything in that video to indicate that he was ready to test for a blackbelt.

The form was shaky...the stances weren't solid, and the techniques were barely recognizable.

The sparring...I still fail to see anything in that video that would indicate a knowledge of any martial art. From the first fight to the last fight, the guy testing was not "sparring" or "fighting" with anything that made any sense...it just seemed like bar-room brawling to me. There was no technique in any kick or punch thrown from any person. The punches that were thrown were some of the worst haymakers I've ever seen someone actually throw. The kicks that were thrown could have possibly had some technique, except that I've seen kids in highschool do the same thing that were not trained in anything at all.

Basically, everything presented on that video was sloppy at best. I'm not arguing the fact that the guy was going at it hard...I know he was...when you're not able to stand at the end of your testing, you've gone at it pretty hard. And I also understand that we're possibly not seeing the whole testing, so we don't know for sure what all has happened or what the rules were. But, the video, presented the way it is, is presented as a black belt test. There are things edited out. There are things that weren't taped. But all we have to go on is what's presented in that video. The guy looked pretty fresh when he got ready to spar his first opponent, so I don't see how being winded or exhausted can be a valid reason for the lack of technique.

And I can certainly hope that he did learn from his mistakes in that video...but what concerns me is that all the students fought the same way. It didn't appear that anyone had control of anything...it was just a bunch of random kicks and punches thrown with the intent of hurting the opponent, i.e. brawling. In other words, all of these students in this video were taught in the same manner.

I'll go out on a limb and say that while the actual training may have been hard and focused on physical toughness, the technique was very lacking, and stops short of being a martial art. What I saw in that video resembled more of what a toughman competition would look like, minus the sloppy form.

Now, please note that I'm seriously not trying to bash the guy in terms of what he's capable of. I'm just trying to point out that what I saw in that video does not resemble a martial art at all. Even people who posted comments on the video were hard pressed to identify the style. Not because it's an unpopular style, but because there was no "style" to speak of. I wouldn't necessarily say that it's far and away from the McDojo on the corner or in the mall...the fact that they allow harder contact than your average McDojo doesn't change the fact that there was no skill involved in what was shown.

I do agree with saying that if it's not for you, it's not for you. But, the same statement applies to McDojos as well.

 

[tshadowchaser]

On the question in the origianal post.

It looked verry much like a normal Black Belt test to me. But then I have been around a little while and all tests back in the old days where brutal

 

[BrandonLucas]

On the question in the origianal post.

It looked verry much like a normal Black Belt test to me. But then I have been around a little while and all tests back in the old days where brutal

That's what I don't understand. How can this be a valid test if no one at the testing is showing any knowledge of the martial arts? The form was sloppy, the sparring was simply brawling at best, and not extremely brutal, actually. I have seen worse, but I would expect more from a black belt that's testing.

I'm all for bleeding in class and getting banged and bruised up. I think it helps learn what the martial arts is all about. But, from that video, there was nothing that showed martial arts training. And I'm not speaking from a modern standpoint; rather, I'm speaking from a martial artist stand point.

 

[Tez3]

I understood the OP to be not so much about the techniques but the contact made. he seemed disturbed that they were making too ha5rd a contact. It didn't seem to be about the actual techniques.
As I've said and was pointed out on the video comments, when exhausted techniques can go straight out of the window.
The question probably is, when you were absolutely cream crackered would you fight him, could you show better techniques and could you beat him? Thats the bottom line always, if you fight will you win?

When black belt tests are like this, you know you've earned your belt. All the perfect katas/forms in the world don't mean a thing unless you can fight to win.

 

[dancingalone]

I'm not bashing the video for being semi or full contact. That's not the issue for me. For me, it's more about the fact that this was supposed to be a blackbelt test. I still don't see anything in that video to indicate that he was ready to test for a blackbelt.

The form was shaky...the stances weren't solid, and the techniques were barely recognizable.

The sparring...I still fail to see anything in that video that would indicate a knowledge of any martial art. From the first fight to the last fight, the guy testing was not "sparring" or "fighting" with anything that made any sense...it just seemed like bar-room brawling to me. There was no technique in any kick or punch thrown from any person. The punches that were thrown were some of the worst haymakers I've ever seen someone actually throw. The kicks that were thrown could have possibly had some technique, except that I've seen kids in highschool do the same thing that were not trained in anything at all.

Basically, everything presented on that video was sloppy at best. I'm not arguing the fact that the guy was going at it hard...I know he was...when you're not able to stand at the end of your testing, you've gone at it pretty hard. And I also understand that we're possibly not seeing the whole testing, so we don't know for sure what all has happened or what the rules were. But, the video, presented the way it is, is presented as a black belt test. There are things edited out. There are things that weren't taped. But all we have to go on is what's presented in that video. The guy looked pretty fresh when he got ready to spar his first opponent, so I don't see how being winded or exhausted can be a valid reason for the lack of technique.

And I can certainly hope that he did learn from his mistakes in that video...but what concerns me is that all the students fought the same way. It didn't appear that anyone had control of anything...it was just a bunch of random kicks and punches thrown with the intent of hurting the opponent, i.e. brawling. In other words, all of these students in this video were taught in the same manner.

I'll go out on a limb and say that while the actual training may have been hard and focused on physical toughness, the technique was very lacking, and stops short of being a martial art. What I saw in that video resembled more of what a toughman competition would look like, minus the sloppy form.

Now, please note that I'm seriously not trying to bash the guy in terms of what he's capable of. I'm just trying to point out that what I saw in that video does not resemble a martial art at all. Even people who posted comments on the video were hard pressed to identify the style. Not because it's an unpopular style, but because there was no "style" to speak of. I wouldn't necessarily say that it's far and away from the McDojo on the corner or in the mall...the fact that they allow harder contact than your average McDojo doesn't change the fact that there was no skill involved in what was shown.

I do agree with saying that if it's not for you, it's not for you. But, the same statement applies to McDojos as well.

Some styles or schools put a premium on effort and intensity over pure technique. They pay lip service to kata. The main focus is on kumite and since you're thrown into the fray at an early time, sometimes you might develop some ugly rush-and-crush tactics that you never let go of, since it works a lot of the time. If you ever stop by a kyokushin school you'll know what I am referring to. (I am of course generalizing.)

At the same time, I daresay they would have some interesting things to say about other schools that don't match their ferocity. It's harder than many think to face down someone big and strong, who may not have refined technique but nonetheless is used to LOTS of contact and has a working idea on how to strike.

I don't have a huge issue with anything you're saying, Brandon, other than it not being necessarily better than a McDojo. I think you're far off the mark there. Tough training, no matter how brutish or unrefined, is better than soft, unrealistic practice.

 

[Tez3]

Remember this?
http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=1264j...********/forums/showthread.php?t=78705&page=2

Rhetorical question, which is better the video in the OP or this?

 

[Sylo]

I understood the OP to be not so much about the techniques but the contact made. he seemed disturbed that they were making too ha5rd a contact. It didn't seem to be about the actual techniques.
As I've said and was pointed out on the video comments, when exhausted techniques can go straight out of the window.
The question probably is, when you were absolutely cream crackered would you fight him, could you show better techniques and could you beat him? Thats the bottom line always, if you fight will you win?

When black belt tests are like this, you know you've earned your belt. All the perfect katas/forms in the world don't mean a thing unless you can fight to win.

It was a mixture of both.

It looked more brutal to me, because the guy as brandon has stated several times looked like he was just throwing junk and not paying attention to any sort of technique.. even when he is fresh. Random wild haymakers, and such. He looked like he was trying to hurt those people from my point of view. I kept waiting to see techniques implemented from his art, but all I saw was random haymakers. Stuff untrained fighters would do. I thought a test was something that made you show that you know what you've learned?

TKD is primarily kicking so you wouldn't see me doing many punches to the face anyway, save a few backfists etc. But our sparring is alot more intense than this is. We do wear some safety gear.. but Its alot more fast paced than this was. I still agree with Brandon.. it looks like bar brawling to me. Winded or not.

 

[dancingalone]

I kept waiting to see techniques implemented from his art, but all I saw was random haymakers. Stuff untrained fighters would do. I thought a test was something that made you show that you know what you've learned?

What makes you think his school doesn't train haymakers? They very well might or perhaps he has some boxing experience and his instructor is OK with him using it.

Lots of different arts do things differently because they value or emphasize different things. I rarely kick with my instep because in my style it's liable to be broken by a crushing elbow block, but I know the majority of Korean stylists out there primarily use the instep for the roundhouse kick. Their rule set is such that they don't have to worry about it.

It's dangerous to judge exclusively through the lens of your own martial arts. I'll leave it at that.