Does this happen in this day and age?

[Brian King]

Sylo a warning would have been nice. Something like
***WARNING FOUL LANGAUAGE*** Video not safe for work or appropriate for children.

Regards
Brian King

 

[Tez3]

Sylo a warning would have been nice. Something like
***WARNING FOUL LANGAUAGE*** Video not safe for work or appropriate for children.

Regards
Brian King

You understood the words? More than I did lol, but yes I did suspect the words were probably not the nicest and a warning should have been posted.

 

[donna]

Anyone done the 10 man kumite? or even 100 man!

The style I was training in has the 100 man kumite as part of the second dan test. To qualify to take the test you usually have to have had your first dan for a min of six years.

 

[Sylo]

Sylo a warning would have been nice. Something like
***WARNING FOUL LANGAUAGE*** Video not safe for work or appropriate for children.

Regards
Brian King

I'm sorry. I was actually watching this from work (no speakers) so I didn't actually hear the audio. And actually its not something I would have expected to hear in the first place.

Had I known about it I would have issued the warning.

On the subject at hand though.

My issue with this is.

In every altercation I have ever been in. It lasted all of a few seconds at best. This isn't teaching me anything at all. I have always been taught to strike hard and fast. I don't want my opponent getting back up. In a real fight, its for keeps its not to dance around each other for 3 minute rounds. I'm not saying you guys are wrong. I'm just saying that even THIS type of sparring is nothing close to how a real "street" fight would be. Its spur of the moment, stuff. Almost every fight I have ever been in lasted just seconds. I'm not giving my opponent time to do anything. Now, it would be different if the idea of this was to completely subue the attackers.. but realistically how would that work?

I don't think anyone would sign up for classes knowing that at the end of the term they will have to beat people to a bloody pulp before they are given a black belt. I agree that this is not even close to being that. But, its alot more rough than anything I see around here. And those schools aren't all mcdojos. I've taken my fair share of punches to the face and other places without ever having taken a single martial arts lesson.

I'm not saying that I'm against harder testing, with full or close to full contact. Because I've done some of that myself. I'm just saying, that its 2008.. almost 2009 and even if it was a test... I don't think I should have to beat the living crap out of someone else to prove I know what I am doing. The fact that I shouldn't have to should prove that.

As long as its controlled so there are no serious injuries then I'm fine with harder contact. You can't know what to do if you get hit, if you never feel it right?

I just don't follow the "you need to beat the crud out of 10 people in a row" to prove you deserve your belt. I seriously doubt I will ever have the pleasure of having 10 people hate me enough to have to fight all of them 1 after the other. And I'm positive they wouldn't fight me 1 by 1.. lol

To me its just as unrealistic as UFC. Its just another way to set things up by rules. Noone will ever know what a "Real" fight consists of until they are in one. Martial arts should give you the edge, but will never be able to 100% show you exactly what to do.. because it just isn't the same thing. I don't care how hard you spar, its still staged.

But to each his own. Different strokes for different folks.

 

[The Kai]

Odd - using your skill in karate to hit people

 

[Blindside]

To me its just as unrealistic as UFC. Its just another way to set things up by rules. Noone will ever know what a "Real" fight consists of until they are in one. Martial arts should give you the edge, but will never be able to 100% show you exactly what to do.. because it just isn't the same thing. I don't care how hard you spar, its still staged.

But to each his own. Different strokes for different folks.

Yes it is unrealistic, but its a test, what do you think is being tested here?

 

[Sylo]

Yes it is unrealistic, but its a test, what do you think is being tested here?

I'll let my instructor decide that.

 

[Tez3]

I'm sorry. I was actually watching this from work (no speakers) so I didn't actually hear the audio. And actually its not something I would have expected to hear in the first place.

Had I known about it I would have issued the warning.

On the subject at hand though.

My issue with this is.

In every altercation I have ever been in. It lasted all of a few seconds at best. This isn't teaching me anything at all. I have always been taught to strike hard and fast. I don't want my opponent getting back up. In a real fight, its for keeps its not to dance around each other for 3 minute rounds. I'm not saying you guys are wrong. I'm just saying that even THIS type of sparring is nothing close to how a real "street" fight would be. Its spur of the moment, stuff. Almost every fight I have ever been in lasted just seconds. I'm not giving my opponent time to do anything. Now, it would be different if the idea of this was to completely subue the attackers.. but realistically how would that work?

I don't think anyone would sign up for classes knowing that at the end of the term they will have to beat people to a bloody pulp before they are given a black belt. I agree that this is not even close to being that. But, its alot more rough than anything I see around here. And those schools aren't all mcdojos. I've taken my fair share of punches to the face and other places without ever having taken a single martial arts lesson.

I'm not saying that I'm against harder testing, with full or close to full contact. Because I've done some of that myself. I'm just saying, that its 2008.. almost 2009 and even if it was a test... I don't think I should have to beat the living crap out of someone else to prove I know what I am doing. The fact that I shouldn't have to should prove that.

As long as its controlled so there are no serious injuries then I'm fine with harder contact. You can't know what to do if you get hit, if you never feel it right?

I just don't follow the "you need to beat the crud out of 10 people in a row" to prove you deserve your belt. I seriously doubt I will ever have the pleasure of having 10 people hate me enough to have to fight all of them 1 after the other. And I'm positive they wouldn't fight me 1 by 1.. lol

To me its just as unrealistic as UFC. Its just another way to set things up by rules. Noone will ever know what a "Real" fight consists of until they are in one. Martial arts should give you the edge, but will never be able to 100% show you exactly what to do.. because it just isn't the same thing. I don't care how hard you spar, its still staged.

But to each his own. Different strokes for different folks.

Well if thats your idea of beating the living whatsit out of someone I don't think you've actually seen many fights, you probably don't mean to but you are coming over as sounding patronising and superior.
In this day and age, yes people are still training as training has always been done,traditionally. It's the way of the warrior. Warriors fight.
The fighting done in the UFC is a sport please don't compare it to street fighting, it takes skill to fight in MMA. Any idiot can brawl in the street and does.
In the Parachute Regiment here part of their training is milling, it's recruit fighting recruit under the eye of the instructors. It may be seen as barbaric in this day and age but it teaches valuable lessons. This was taken a while back and some of these young men were killed in Afghanistan recently.
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=ZgoP37DVNSs

Incidentally the instructor reffing this is one of our pro MMA fighters and instructors.

As Blindside says you have to think what is being learned by sparring in this grading.

 

[seasoned]

I recognized the kata Seiunchin in there, and up until the sparring it looked a lot like the black belt test in my dojo back in Illinois, with full-speed, full-force attackers that you have to demonstrate bunkai on. Our test doesn't include the sparring, but the promotion ceremony does. It's definitely not hard to believe that this happens on some traditional or hardcore dojo. I am a little concerned about the fact that the person going up for his black belt had to fight lower ranks--as I recall, if you are fighting to earn your black belt, shouldn't you be fighting people your rank and higher? Oh well, though, I'm not the sensei

It is a BB test so if you are asked to show up, or do, on your own, it is assumed you can take it. The only way to test for BB is to have been sparring like this, up through the ranks. Generally the lower belts are to get you tired and the higher belts bring on the abuse. White Gi’s define a traditional style, Goju Ryu Karate possibly.

 

[Sylo]

Well if thats your idea of beating the living whatsit out of someone I don't think you've actually seen many fights, you probably don't mean to but you are coming over as sounding patronising and superior.
In this day and age, yes people are still training as training has always been done,traditionally. It's the way of the warrior. Warriors fight.
The fighting done in the UFC is a sport please don't compare it to street fighting, it takes skill to fight in MMA. Any idiot can brawl in the street and does.
In the Parachute Regiment here part of their training is milling, it's recruit fighting recruit under the eye of the instructors. It may be seen as barbaric in this day and age but it teaches valuable lessons. This was taken a while back and some of these young men were killed in Afghanistan recently.
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=ZgoP37DVNSs

Incidentally the instructor reffing this is one of our pro MMA fighters and instructors.

As Blindside says you have to think what is being learned by sparring in this grading.

I'm not trying to sound superior. I don't feel thats an issue. I don't see what this teaches, and you guys do. There is nothing wrong with that. Its just a difference of opinion. To me its like saying that someone can't truly know how to design a car to be safe from crashes, without actually having been in a horrible car crash. They do it all the time. I don't see a problem in this video. I don't think its realistic, but nothing is. I just don't think there is a "right" or "wrong" way to test. Its up to my instructor to determine what is acceptible.. not me. If he wants me to play fist acuffs with 10 people 1 by 1.. then thats what I will do. This guy can fight 10 guys in a row and still be standing at the end. Thats what this video teaches me. He can hold his own, in a far fetched scenario that will never happen in a million years. Lets see him take on all 10 at the same time. To me its kinda like the "breaking is pointless" argument. If you want to get technical.. it can all be considered pointless to a degree. I applaud those who still go to this length to have full contact sparring matches at their BB tests. You guys are keeping the tradition alive. No disrespect meant and I hope none was taken.

 

[Tez3]

I'm not trying to sound superior. I don't feel thats an issue. I don't see what this teaches, and you guys do. There is nothing wrong with that. Its just a difference of opinion. To me its like saying that someone can't truly know how to design a car to be safe from crashes, without actually having been in a horrible car crash. They do it all the time. I don't see a problem in this video. I don't think its realistic, but nothing is. I just don't think there is a "right" or "wrong" way to test. Its up to my instructor to determine what is acceptible.. not me. If he wants me to play fist acuffs with 10 people 1 by 1.. then thats what I will do. This guy can fight 10 guys in a row and still be standing at the end. Thats what this video teaches me. He can hold his own, in a far fetched scenario that will never happen in a million years. Lets see him take on all 10 at the same time. To me its kinda like the "breaking is pointless" argument. If you want to get technical.. it can all be considered pointless to a degree. I applaud those who still go to this length to have full contact sparring matches at their BB tests. You guys are keeping the tradition alive. No disrespect meant and I hope none was taken.

I don't think it's teaching how to fight in the street, that will be done in class. What I believe it's teaching and testing is more esoteric, it's testing whether he has heart, whether he has confidence, that he doesn't panic, doesn't sit and cry because he's been hit. It tests the saying if you like 'knocked down 8 times, got up 9'. It's looking to see if he has it inside him to carry on long after he's tired and wants to give up and sit down. it's testing character.

By the point he gets to grading they will know he whether he has the skills to defend himself and he has the techniques, now they want to see if he has 'heart'.

You are looking at it merely as a physical training exercise, it's not it's a very big mental test. The by products of sparring of course are as we said, knowing you can take a punch if neccessary, being able to hit etc. This of course is what the class works for, this grading is to test his mettle.

There are some clubs that will have multiple attackers not just one on one.

 

[The Kai]

It is not testing a actual fight situation, but his spirit

 

[Tez3]

It is not testing a actual fight situation, but his spirit

You managed to get what I was meaning into one sentence! Exactly right to my mind.

 

[Sylo]

You managed to get what I was meaning into one sentence! Exactly right to my mind.

You should have just said that in the first place!

That guy does have heart.

 

[Tez3]

You should have just said that in the first place!

That guy does have heart.

We did keep hinting lol! We wanted you to take it at more than face value, besides you sounded so shocked that people should actually be hitting each other!!

I think too that you should remember as old fashioned as it seems a lot of us enjoy fighting ( I know, shock, horror lol) it's fun, honestly! it's one of the reasons people enjoy doing MMA, not for SD but for the joy of combat.

 

[BrandonLucas]

I'm going to take a slightly different approach to this video and say that his sparring technique was pretty sloppy.

I understand that in this type of testing, he's testing more than just his technique...he's testing to see how much intestinal fortitude he's got, and, much as a real fight will look like, good technique isn't always there.

That being said, I don't really understand the point of sparring the way that they were, either...like sylo was saying, we spar that hard, but we have pads, and we don't punch to the face. And even if we did punch to the face, we wouldn't try to kill eachother doing it.

What I'm referring to about the technique being sloppy is that from the first fight to the last, they all looked more like a brawl than a potential blackbelt fighting. I don't expect any fight to look like they do in the movies, but I do expect a potential blackbelt to handle a fight better than throwing wild punches that sometimes land.

The benefit that I can see to sparring in that way is that it does give the person testing a gut-check. I agree that in order for someone to earn a blackbelt, they have to work just as hard as he did in that video, just not in the same way.

Basically, I can see both sides of the argument on this one...I like to spar hard, and I like the feeling of hitting and getting hit. But I don't think an accurate way of testing someone for a blackbelt is to put them in a room and tell them to try to injur their opponent. I may have been taught differently than most, but I'm not fighting to hurt the other person, I'm fighting to keep them from hurting me. And that's not what I saw in the video.

 

[Sylo]

We did keep hinting lol! We wanted you to take it at more than face value, besides you sounded so shocked that people should actually be hitting each other!!

I think too that you should remember as old fashioned as it seems a lot of us enjoy fighting ( I know, shock, horror lol) it's fun, honestly! it's one of the reasons people enjoy doing MMA, not for SD but for the joy of combat.

I think people should be getting hit, and doing the hitting. I don't think it should be injury inducing to the point where I need to see a doctor. What good is a banged up soldier? Should a marksman have to see how many bullets he can dodge to prove he can shoot a rifle? Thats my point. This guy can obviously take a lick and keep on ticking. I'm sure many of us here can do the same, myself included. We don't pansy spar at our school. I have been hurt, and have hurt others plenty of times. I do not like the feeling of hurting or injuring my fellow students. We aren't learning anything that way. I like brandon's point about I'm not fighting to hurt the other person, I'm fighting to keep them from hurting me. Thats where I was trying to go with it. My ability to hurt another person is not what I should be tested on. I can hurt someone right now, no black belt needed.

 

[myusername]

I'm not trying to sound superior. I don't feel thats an issue. I don't see what this teaches, and you guys do. There is nothing wrong with that. Its just a difference of opinion. To me its like saying that someone can't truly know how to design a car to be safe from crashes, without actually having been in a horrible car crash. They do it all the time. I don't see a problem in this video. I don't think its realistic, but nothing is. I just don't think there is a "right" or "wrong" way to test. Its up to my instructor to determine what is acceptible.. not me. If he wants me to play fist acuffs with 10 people 1 by 1.. then thats what I will do. This guy can fight 10 guys in a row and still be standing at the end. Thats what this video teaches me. He can hold his own, in a far fetched scenario that will never happen in a million years. Lets see him take on all 10 at the same time. To me its kinda like the "breaking is pointless" argument. If you want to get technical.. it can all be considered pointless to a degree. I applaud those who still go to this length to have full contact sparring matches at their BB tests. You guys are keeping the tradition alive. No disrespect meant and I hope none was taken.

I think people are making very valid points about this being a test and more a test of spirit and heart than anything else. But I would still argue and maintain that this type of sparring and experience does teach something. At the end of the day it is pressure testing. Look at how crisp and perfect his techniques are when he is doing his katas and bunkai. Then look at what happens when he meets a fully resistant opponent. There is a hell of a lot of grabbing and tusselling. The instructors need to see how the student adapts his technique and training to a little bit of chaos. The guy did so well, there was no showboating or posturing he just got down to business and you could see the level of the mans skill when he managed to fly out a kick from nowhere whilst under pressure and the dynamics of his punches when he was using the non punching arm to pull the opponent on to his punch. I imagine that the man is able to do this because he has been taught how to do this. This type of full on traditional sparring teaches people how to use their techniques under pressure.

In your post you use the example of car manufacturing

To me its like saying that someone can't truly know how to design a car to be safe from crashes, without actually having been in a horrible car crash. They do it all the time.

Well I would argue that a great deal of pressure testing goes into making cars safer. Have you seen the crash test dummies been driven at full speed into a wall? It is a way of pressure testing the car's impact bars, seatbelts, airbag etc. I would not want to get into a car that the manufacturers had not used pressure testing at some stage in the design phase.

 

[Tez3]

I'm going to take a slightly different approach to this video and say that his sparring technique was pretty sloppy.

I understand that in this type of testing, he's testing more than just his technique...he's testing to see how much intestinal fortitude he's got, and, much as a real fight will look like, good technique isn't always there.

That being said, I don't really understand the point of sparring the way that they were, either...like sylo was saying, we spar that hard, but we have pads, and we don't punch to the face. And even if we did punch to the face, we wouldn't try to kill eachother doing it.

What I'm referring to about the technique being sloppy is that from the first fight to the last, they all looked more like a brawl than a potential blackbelt fighting. I don't expect any fight to look like they do in the movies, but I do expect a potential blackbelt to handle a fight better than throwing wild punches that sometimes land.

The benefit that I can see to sparring in that way is that it does give the person testing a gut-check. I agree that in order for someone to earn a blackbelt, they have to work just as hard as he did in that video, just not in the same way.

Basically, I can see both sides of the argument on this one...I like to spar hard, and I like the feeling of hitting and getting hit. But I don't think an accurate way of testing someone for a blackbelt is to put them in a room and tell them to try to injur their opponent. I may have been taught differently than most, but I'm not fighting to hurt the other person, I'm fighting to keep them from hurting me. And that's not what I saw in the video.

The technique is a good point and worth discussing. they did look as if they were brawling at one point but a good comment was made at the bottom of the video where they said when you are completely knackered techniques go out the window! I don't think we saw the whole grading to take into account how tired he was, my black belt grading took hours and I had to spar like that at the end of it, when I was exhausted and I'm sure my techniques were totally sloppy. You run on instinct and if someone is tryng to hurt you damn right you hurt them back. You need that little voice inside you when it looks like you are on your last legs and can't go on saying dammit get up and hurt that SOB! Not nice, but can you honestly say that if someone is trying to hurt you or yours in anger that you could treat it as a training exercise and not try to hurt them back?

We spar without using headguards and using 4oz MMA gloves. Headguards give you a false sense of security, they do take the edge of a strike but to be effective they should be wrapped around the brain itself not the outside skull. The brain will still rebound off the skull causing brusing/bleeding even with a headguard on. Boxers spar with headguards but it doesn't stop damage. Punching with barehands is safer than using pads, you can only hit so hard with bare hands, with gloves or pads you can hit much harder and cause much more damage to your opponent. The damge with bare fists is limited. Bare knuckle boxing has always been less damaging than with hands bound in hard tape then with big gloves on, there's no hand pain to limit the punch.

I don't think they were going full out though it probably looks like that on video. It seemed only to be 60/70%. It's hard to judge on a few minutes of a grading but I wouldn't say that sparring was out to hammer people.

 

[Sylo]

I think people are making very valid points about this being a test and more a test of spirit and heart than anything else. But I would still argue and maintain that this type of sparring and experience does teach something. At the end of the day it is pressure testing. Look at how crisp and perfect his techniques are when he is doing his katas and bunkai. Then look at what happens when he meets a fully resistant opponent. There is a hell of a lot of grabbing and tusselling. The instructors need to see how the student adapts his technique and training to a little bit of chaos. The guy did so well, there was no showboating or posturing he just got down to business and you could see the level of the mans skill when he managed to fly out a kick from nowhere whilst under pressure and the dynamics of his punches when he was using the non punching arm to pull the opponent on to his punch. I imagine that the man is able to do this because he has been taught how to do this. This type of full on traditional sparring teaches people how to use their techniques under pressure.

In your post you use the example of car manufacturing



Well I would argue that a great deal of pressure testing goes into making cars safer. Have you seen the crash test dummies been driven at full speed into a wall? It is a way of pressure testing the car's impact bars, seatbelts, airbag etc. I would not want to get into a car that the manufacturers had not used pressure testing at some stage in the design phase.

That was my point. they are dummies.. not human beings.

I'm not fighting someone with the intentions of injuring or hurting them unless my life is at stake.