Discussion in 'Aikido' started by moonhill99, Apr 12, 2015.
You don't have to say sensei after everyone's name especially when talking online
According to proper protocol it is the right thing to do but I'll keep that in mind, if it becomes inconvenient...
What I found very interesting is a lot of Seagal techniques from Tenshin Aikido you don't really see in traditional Aikido. Such as his hand deflections,irmi nage,yubi dori and nodotsukiage.
Irimi nage ummm yes you do lol that is just a basic entering throw. there are many many techs involving irimi both omote and ura.
The other tech you quote are more leaning towards Daito ryu
If you have been watching lenny sly then his vid (or at least part of it) on yubi dori then his initial entry is very like an entry for sankyo just he is using the fingers lol
Any technique has variations and can be applied slightly differently but the entry and exit are basically the same.
Hand deflections yes you do that all the time. Think if uke does shomen uchi, you are deflecting the hand if you go for say ikkyo ok you are going to control the elbow but you still are deflecting the hand.
I could be wrong but more or the hand deflection thing came in during seagals rise in the movie making business as it looks good.
Neck throws are in Aikido I have seen Chiba and Tissier do them just slightly differently and more as a choke which is granted not a big thing in Aikido it more harks back again to Daito ryu
I am not knocking Tenshin Aikido just don't get to taken in by the current stream of vids around
I just cringe whenever i see it tbh. I mean in class I say what I've got to say to say but outside these people aren't anything special they're normal people just like the rest of us and I refuse to call anyone sir or sensei outside of a class setting
it just a thing some do and some don't when referring to people. Just a personal thing I guess and each to their own
Once I respect someone as a Sensei I always call him Sensei whether it's on the mat or off the mat. To me Sensei is a very special meaning and I don't accept anyone as such simply because he runs a dojo.
So if he doesn't qualify according to my personal standards I never call him Sensei...
So (and I'm not talking about any specific individual here) you think you're better qualified than the seniors within an organization to decide what titles people deserve?
I hope that's not what you're saying (though it certainly looks like you are. Because that would be incredibly arrogant.
The way Seagal does irmi nage is more of a closeline. He comes right in, does not try get to behind the neck and throw. I have never seen that any traditional Aikido dojo do that.
Are you meaning that there is no tenkan?
I had a quick look at segal doing that and it is irimi nage omote the version you have maybe seen which is more common (it shouldn't be lol) is irimi nage ura
Seagal was being kinda lazy as in both you should actually enter fully otherwise it really a pure closeline lol... When doing the omote version if you have it right then you don't in truth need to follow thru with what you describe as the closeline lol you can actually just pull the uke back and down he will go (or should if you have entered properly )
Both those techs are very basic Aikido and I don't know of any Ueshiba based that don't contain that but I guess I could be wrong
Just a add on. Becareful from what era you are watching Seagal as the last vids I saw of him he is being lazy and only doing the things he can as his ummm mobility is somewhat restricted and he is going more for what he can do and show of at infact I just saw one of him throwing from a Hiji waza tech and honestly it was total crap no flow and it was his bulk that really put the uke over (and the uke did assist him) even one of the moves looked like it should be shiho nage omote but umm it wasn't kinda as again his present condition he couldn't move properly.
His early stuff and the stuff he did before he got to look like the Michelin man was good and clean anything in the past maybe 5 years or so well not so clean.
Also be aware that some Aikido organisations call things by different names (techs I mean) but the basic irimi nage (both forms) are in all Ueshiba based Aikido (even in suwari waza)
Lenny Sly said in the video Seagal people are only people that use Kenjutsu hand deflections in Aikido.
I'm not sure how others do irimi nage,but the way I learned was close to Seagal with the variant that my arm will rise under the chin first to lift, then down. The image is like an ocean wave. Rolling a little up to hook the chin then down. Seagal being tall would not need to lift the chin as its automatic.
I think the confusion is between Irimi nage omote and Irimi nage ura. From what your describing is the omote version
99.99% of all Aikido is based on the sword so any deflection and hand movements are sword based so he is not fully right there
What are "Kenjutsu hand deflections"? And what is Seagal's background in Kenjutsu?
Btw Lenny Sly seems to break a few principles of effective technique (e.g. I don't see any hip power in the video and he moves forward instead of throwing at an angle), I'd like to see him try this "irimi nage" on a bigger partner...
I think he using that word for a purpose as in marketing
Does Seagal have Kenjutsu it a new one on me but I dunno
The last part I'd agree with as it not really Irimi nage as I know it either ura or omote but he did enter and throw but it was strength not technique mind you a good part of the vid again was telling everyone that any other irimi nage is basically useless. I guess that is just him tho and how he views things
I remember seeing this article in Black Belt magazine about Seagal in Kenjetsu.Steven Seagal - "Kenjutsu is very, very difficult to learn. It's the hardest thing that I've ever tried to learn." ~ Stickgrappler's Sojourn of Septillion Steps.
Ok I read the article
I dunno which school he trained in
I do take issue that it only advanced Aikido that the hands cut like a sword that ain't true imo
most masters in TJMA are quiet and not loud and brash so that is no surprise, actually any masters should be that way.
I'm not following what he means by the sword strike to the head face that no one can see coming.
Learning to cut is kinda a prerequisite of any sword art and learning the cut to the head well you will in Aikido know that as men uchi or the side cut to the head as shomen uchi so that is no surprise or major difficulty and it is a basic ok it can take a life time to perfect to cut but that could be as he is alluding to zen there but like in Aikido you could spend a lifetime only trying to perfect ikkyo so really no difference
I still don't get the Kenjutsu deflecting hand techs you referred to but there again i we knew the school then we could all go have a look at it's curriculum and see
He has not really said anything in that article that is not other than common knowledge really and the bit about being refused to be taught well some JTMA schools do require a letter of introduction but as he does not state the school and there are no clues unless you know.
The draw and cut he refers to is kinda basic to any school of iai or batto do/jutsu (an I am not gonna start an argument over the different meaning between iai and batto do/jutsu's I am not well enough verse to do that I think I know but I probably don't lol) again depending on the school if they taught that some do some don't, technically it is a different discipline. Kenjutsu can be an umberella term use for all Japanese sword arts (again it not tech correct imo but it is used) so until you know what school he studied it not easy to say.
I still really don't get the kenjutsu sword deflects at all
The Bokken is used in Aikido as a way and method of teaching the thinking that the hands move in a fashion like holding a sword and cutting and the footwork too have a peak at Nishio style of Aikido and I think he was a deshi of Ueshiba but it may have been the second doshu as Ueshiba was in Iwama again by then an I don't know if Nishio was or was just purely at the Aikikai Hombu. I do know he studied many arts to fairly high ranks and he di create his own form off iaido, as I said take a peak as that style of Aikido uses the bokken a lot123
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