does karate include grappling

[Hanzou]

"Grappling" is a spectrum. On one end you have wrestling, judo, and BJJ. Here, grappling is the end object, finishing the fight, whether sport or actual, in most cases on the ground with submission or points based on the grappling technique.

On the other end is karate where grappling is only the means to an end, the end mostly being a finishing strike with the victor usually on his feet (sometimes on a knee after a takedown.) Its main purpose is to set up and facilitate the strike. In kata, this is often hidden, but in application, it is of great importance (to those educated in its use.)

With such differing goals, the grappling techniques from one end of the spectrum are of limited use to the other end. Naihanchi is called a "grappling" kata (most all Okinawan kata are to some extent,) but the grappling is of a much different kind than judo or BJJ. Attempting to put a judo or BJJ interpretation into a karate form is likely doomed to failure.

I admit that when teaching kata, I use the term grappling. But it must be understood that it is much different than wrestling grappling. For this reason (especially after reading this thread) I like referring to karate as a seizing/striking art.

I would actually argue that a Karateka can gain a great deal of benefit from adding Bjj and/or Judo to their skillset. The main thing those arts will add is the removal of the disadvantage a karateka deals with when someone passes their striking range. This is something I dealt with when I did karate, and its something I still see when I practice with karate exponents; Once you're inside their punching and kicking zone, there's really no mechanism to deal with that opponent except possibly knees and elbows, which frankly aren't as well developed in karate as they are in Muay Thai, and even Muay Thai practitioners have problems dealing with it.

Speaking of Muay Thai, another option for karate practitioners would be adopting the Muay Thai clinch.

Beyond that, I completely agree with the term "Seizing" for what we see in Karate, maybe Aikido as well.

 

[hoshin1600]

I would actually argue that a Karateka can gain a great deal of benefit from adding Bjj and/or Judo to their skillset. The main thing those arts will add is the removal of the disadvantage a karateka deals with when someone passes their striking range. This is something I dealt with when I did karate, and its something I still see when I practice with karate exponents; Once you're inside their punching and kicking zone, there's really no mechanism to deal with that opponent except possibly knees and elbows, which frankly aren't as well developed in karate as they are in Muay Thai, and even Muay Thai practitioners have problems dealing with it.

Speaking of Muay Thai, another option for karate practitioners would be adopting the Muay Thai clinch.

Beyond that, I completely agree with the term "Seizing" for what we see in Karate, maybe Aikido as well.

Your post points out the bias of how you view karate. As I said earlier karate is not homogeneous. Everything you describe that karate IS , only applies to Shotokan.
For example uchi ryu. Our "zone" is inside. Exactly elbow and knee range. My left hand is often hooked behind the opponents neck with my forehead buried into his shoulder area. There is no striking zone to pass through. Do you really think Muay Thai is the only short range fighting system?
I'll give credit where deserved, uechi is not well equipped to deal with BJJ or wrestlers who would shoot in for a double leg takedown but my point is not all karate fights from outside like Shotokan

 

[Hanzou]

Your post points out the bias of how you view karate. As I said earlier karate is not homogeneous. Everything you describe that karate IS , only applies to Shotokan.
For example uchi ryu. Our "zone" is inside. Exactly elbow and knee range. My left hand is often hooked behind the opponents neck with my forehead buried into his shoulder area. There is no striking zone to pass through. Do you really think Muay Thai is the only short range fighting system?
I'll give credit where deserved, uechi is not well equipped to deal with BJJ or wrestlers who would shoot in for a double leg takedown but my point is not all karate fights from outside like Shotokan

You mean like this?

I never said that Muay Thai is the only short ranged fighting system, but what they do looks quite a bit more sound and practical than what I’m seeing above.

 

[drop bear]

You mean like this?

I never said that Muay Thai is the only short ranged fighting system, but what they do looks quite a bit more sound and practical than what I’m seeing above.

One example is where karate adopts kudo. Then they start looking well rounded.

Obviously karate can do whatever it wants and still be karate. The only demarcation points are what occurs in a person's mind.

 

[hoshin1600]

You mean like this?

I never said that Muay Thai is the only short ranged fighting system, but what they do looks quite a bit more sound and practical than what I’m seeing above.

no not like that. obviously thats sparring , which btw is common in karate we all know that, uechi after all is karate and they compete in open karate tournaments. typical karate sparring is part of lots of schools training because that is what people want. not everyone wants to be an MMA fighter. although i know you will find that hard to believe. Some people just want a little exercise and get out of the house and dont want contact so they can go to work the next day without a black eye and being sore.
But the style itself is more designed for close fighting.
as for the clip its a brown belt testing for his black, not an impressive sparring session but not horrible for what it is. and what it is , is a no glove no contact slap and tickle play. it may not be what you like, may not be what i like but it is what it is and you cant compare and apple to an orange and im not going to make excuses about it either. ill be the first to say that 90 % of Uechi karate does sparring like this (but its also not the only type sparring they might do), why ? because for 40 years thats what sells. since 1960 Uechi has tried to convert its self into a more standard version to fit what people thought of when they see the name karate.
so maybe im wrong. i trained in the small % of schools that train more like Muay Thai and that level of training doesnt represent the bulk of what can be found out there. maybe i shouldnt say Uechi ryu as if all schools are the same because i know they are not. but i will also say this in opposition. the bulk of you who think you train in Muay Thai, or think you know what it is,,, you dont, you also train in an ever growing watered down version of what is taught in Thai land to the Thai. In Thai land "farang" are treated different. Schools like Fairtex cater to outsiders with a watered down version. in 40 years Muay Thai wont be the same just like Uechi Ryu and with the non contact MMA schools opening up, MMA wont be MMA either. so enjoy it while it lasts.

 

[Hanzou]

no not like that. obviously thats sparring , which btw is common in karate we all know that, uechi after all is karate and they compete in open karate tournaments. typical karate sparring is part of lots of schools training because that is what people want. not everyone wants to be an MMA fighter. although i know you will find that hard to believe. Some people just want a little exercise and get out of the house and dont want contact so they can go to work the next day without a black eye and being sore.
But the style itself is more designed for close fighting.
as for the clip its a brown belt testing for his black, not an impressive sparring session but not horrible for what it is. and what it is , is a no glove no contact slap and tickle play. it may not be what you like, may not be what i like but it is what it is and you cant compare and apple to an orange and im not going to make excuses about it either. ill be the first to say that 90 % of Uechi karate does sparring like this (but its also not the only type sparring they might do), why ? because for 40 years thats what sells. since 1960 Uechi has tried to convert its self into a more standard version to fit what people thought of when they see the name karate.
so maybe im wrong. i trained in the small % of schools that train more like Muay Thai and that level of training doesnt represent the bulk of what can be found out there. maybe i shouldnt say Uechi ryu as if all schools are the same because i know they are not. but i will also say this in opposition. the bulk of you who think you train in Muay Thai, or think you know what it is,,, you dont, you also train in an ever growing watered down version of what is taught in Thai land to the Thai. In Thai land "farang" are treated different. Schools like Fairtex cater to outsiders with a watered down version. in 40 years Muay Thai wont be the same just like Uechi Ryu and with the non contact MMA schools opening up, MMA wont be MMA either. so enjoy it while it lasts.

Well the difference is that both MMA and Muay Thai are sports that have to maintain a certain level of competitiveness or the professionals who train in it won't be effective against other individuals. If you look at MMA for example, the general skill level of elite MMA fighters have only grown, and there's a growing need for more MMA gyms to open to cater to potential fighters coming up in various parts of the world. So yeah, there may be non-contact MMA schools opening up, but MMA as a whole will never be watered down because you have that standard that must be kept, and to keep that standard up you will always have "real" MMA schools for actual MMA fighters.

In the case of Muay Thai, if your training is garbage, you simply won't be a competitive fighter, and your gym will get mauled by other gyms who are churning out better fighters than your gym is. Thus it becomes a goal of your gym to keep the training standards up or simply become a fitness gym. Those do exist, and people looking to learn "real" Muay Thai don't go to those types of gyms. They know where to find the real deal, because the real deal has to exist in a competitive environment.

This isn't the case with something like Uechi Ryu. Styles like that compete in a rather insular sphere if they compete at all. So there's no real standard in place, and individual schools are free to water down the curriculum as much as they want. There's no place to go to get "real" Uechi Ryu like there are obvious places to get "real" MMA, Bjj, or Muay Thai for example. Instead you end up in a school where you have situations like the above.

 

[hoshin1600]

Well the difference is that both MMA and Muay Thai are sports that have to maintain a certain level of competitiveness or the professionals who train in it won't be effective against other individuals. If you look at MMA for example, the general skill level of elite MMA fighters have only grown, and there's a growing need for more MMA gyms to open to cater to potential fighters coming up in various parts of the world. So yeah, there may be non-contact MMA schools opening up, but MMA as a whole will never be watered down because you have that standard that must be kept, and to keep that standard up you will always have "real" MMA schools for actual MMA fighters.

In the case of Muay Thai, if your training is garbage, you simply won't be a competitive fighter, and your gym will get mauled by other gyms who are churning out better fighters than your gym is. Thus it becomes a goal of your gym to keep the training standards up or simply become a fitness gym. Those do exist, and people looking to learn "real" Muay Thai don't go to those types of gyms. They know where to find the real deal, because the real deal has to exist in a competitive environment.

This isn't the case with something like Uechi Ryu. Styles like that compete in a rather insular sphere if they compete at all. So there's no real standard in place, and individual schools are free to water down the curriculum as much as they want. There's no place to go to get "real" Uechi Ryu like there are obvious places to get "real" MMA, Bjj, or Muay Thai for example. Instead you end up in a school where you have situations like the above.

I'm so glad your so smart. You should open up your own school while you still know everything.
Your not interested in having an open two way conversation so I won't bother to continue. Your too well trained on how to dominate your will and view point on others.

 

[Hanzou]

I'm so glad your so smart. You should open up your own school while you still know everything.
Your not interested in having an open two way conversation so I won't bother to continue. Your too well trained on how to dominate your will and view point on others.

A simple "Thank you!" would have sufficed.

 

[drop bear]

the bulk of you who think you train in Muay Thai, or think you know what it is,,, you dont, you also train in an ever growing watered down version of what is taught in Thai land to the Thai. In Thai land "farang" are treated different. Schools like Fairtex cater to outsiders with a watered down version. in 40 years Muay Thai wont be the same just like Uechi Ryu and with the non contact MMA schools opening up, MMA wont be MMA either. so enjoy it

The system's that work won't really change. If muay thai is garbage it will be garbage for the same reason karate is garbage.

So rather than looking at the labels it is always better to look to see if the martial art is adopting consistent methods that have been shown to produce fighters.

So for example there is a karate club in Rockhampton I know called Fitzroy martial arts. And by looking at their methods it is possible to make a judgement on their quality of instruction.

And so the instructor there does go and train at Tiger muay thai. (Which is serious business)

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1076657535853674

 

[hoshin1600]

The system's that work won't really change. If muay thai is garbage it will be garbage for the same reason karate is garbage.

So rather than looking at the labels it is always better to look to see if the martial art is adopting consistent methods that have been shown to produce fighters.

So for example there is a karate club in Rockhampton I know called Fitzroy martial arts. And by looking at their methods it is possible to make a judgement on their quality of instruction.

And so the instructor there does go and train at Tiger muay thai. (Which is serious business)

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1076657535853674

I am not sure what your trying to get across but I think we are pointing at the same thing.

 

[drop bear]

I am not sure what your trying to get across but I think we are pointing at the same thing.

My point is martial arts is rubbish unless it can show it isn't.

So karate grappling. Is rubbish.

Where say kudo grappling is good.

This is because one you can see and one you can't see.

 

[isshinryuronin]

Maybe a language problem, but this seems illogical (and wrong.) Or perhaps you have a misconception of what true karate "grappling" is - Many do, and some know but ignore it as it does not fit their biased narrative.

My point is martial arts is rubbish unless it can show it isn't.
So karate grappling. Is rubbish

I assure you, drop bear, karate grappling as I've outlined a couple of times here (see post #16,) is not rubbish. It is highly effective against most of those one is apt to come across. Harder to use against trained boxers, true, but those are not all that common.

This is because one you can see and one you can't see.

Not sure what you mean by this. However, I will say, what you don't see is what can bite you in the butt. This is true in kumite as well as in kata (where a lot of the good stuff happens in between the shown moves.)

Much of this stand up grabbing technique is unknown to most karate practitioners (perhaps this is what you have been looking at and based your comments on.) So if you look at most karate dojos, you will not see true use of hikite or tuite grabbing art. Some have thrown in grappling from other arts (as has been pointed out by others here) and as I have commented, they may not work well. But the employment of authentic karate grabbing/seizing works.

 

[drop bear]

I assure you, drop bear, karate grappling as I've outlined a couple of times here (see post #16,) is not rubbish. It is highly effective against most of those one is apt to come across. Harder to use against trained boxers, true, but those are not all that common.

Show it isn't rubbish.

I mean let's say kudo. Which is a bit karate based and I say they have effective throws.

And you can literally see for yourself if the grappling is legit or not. You don't need an assurance.

 

[Hanzou]

Maybe a language problem, but this seems illogical (and wrong.) Or perhaps you have a misconception of what true karate "grappling" is - Many do, and some know but ignore it as it does not fit their biased narrative.



I assure you, drop bear, karate grappling as I've outlined a couple of times here (see post #16,) is not rubbish. It is highly effective against most of those one is apt to come across. Harder to use against trained boxers, true, but those are not all that common.



Not sure what you mean by this. However, I will say, what you don't see is what can bite you in the butt. This is true in kumite as well as in kata (where a lot of the good stuff happens in between the shown moves.)

Much of this stand up grabbing technique is unknown to most karate practitioners (perhaps this is what you have been looking at and based your comments on.) So if you look at most karate dojos, you will not see true use of hikite or tuite grabbing art. Some have thrown in grappling from other arts (as has been pointed out by others here) and as I have commented, they may not work well. But the employment of authentic karate grabbing/seizing works.

Here's the problem;

When I see karate practitioners attempt to do grappling, it's almost always coming out of their kata, which is dubious at best. Then when they go to practice these throws and techniques, they utilize the one-step method with pretty much zero resistance. Here's a video describing what I'm talking about;

Looks good right? You would look at something like that and go "Of course Karate has grappling, look at those movements, they look just like the kata!".

Except then you look at Judo randori (you know, when you actually have to throw a fully resisting partner) this is what it looks like;

And you realize a pretty big difference very quickly. Are the Okinawan karate practitioners doing randori like the Judoka? I highly doubt it, and if they're not then I have to seriously call into question the efficacy of their practice.

 

[Hanzou]

Then there's this;

10-man Kumite, which pretty much resembles karate as I remember it; Standing around outside of kicking range, moving in for a kick, some punches, then someone backs out or circles out, and rinse/repeat. I saw a couple of sweeps (mainly counter to a missed kick), maybe 1 throw tops. Where's the grappling?

BTW, when you're fighting a big *** gorilla of a man, I don't recommend standing and banging, I recommend grappling. Which is why I'm a little surprised that so many of those smaller Karateka opted to do nothing but stand and bang with this dude. If they were really fighting, this big dude would have mauled every last one of them. He could have just raised his giant log of leg up and kicked one of those poor Asian guys in the head and probably killed them.

 

[isshinryuronin]

10-man Kumite, which pretty much resembles karate as I remember it; Standing around outside of kicking range, moving in for a kick, some punches, then someone backs out or circles out, and rinse/repeat. I saw a couple of sweeps (mainly counter to a missed kick), maybe 1 throw tops. Where's the grappling?

For the answer, I will quote my response (just a few posts above) to drop bear.

Much of this stand up grabbing technique is unknown to most karate practitioners (perhaps this is what you have been looking at and based your comments on.) So if you look at most karate dojos, you will not see true use of hikite or tuite grabbing art.

Note, your video is of practice sparring (point style) done at longer range and also note that the grabbing techniques I refer to often are designed to lead to moves not allowed in competition.

 

[Hanzou]

For the answer, I will quote my response (just a few posts above) to drop bear.

Uh huh.

Note, your video is of practice sparring (point style) done at longer range and also note that the grabbing techniques I refer to often are designed to lead to moves not allowed in competition.

If you're talking about the 10-man kumite, that is not point style, nor is it practice sparring. They're really hitting each other, and as the kumite continues, you notice the participant (the big white guy) getting worn down from the beating he was receiving.

 

[isshinryuronin]

Here's the problem;

When I see karate practitioners attempt to do grappling, it's almost always coming out of their kata, which is dubious at best. Then when they go to practice these throws and techniques, they utilize the one-step method with pretty much zero resistance. Here's a video describing what I'm talking about;

Looks good right? You would look at something like that and go "Of course Karate has grappling, look at those movements, they look just like the kata!".

Except then you look at Judo randori (you know, when you actually have to throw a fully resisting partner) this is what it looks like;

And you realize a pretty big difference very quickly. Are the Okinawan karate practitioners doing randori like the Judoka? I highly doubt it, and if they're not then I have to seriously call into question the efficacy of their practice.

Yes, there is a very big difference... since you are comparing apples and oranges. In judo and wrestling it is possible to fully execute a technique without injuring your partner. In a striking art, this is not possible - efficacy can lead to hospitalization. Know also that for a particular move to work, it is sometimes necessary to do another move first to injure/disrupt the opponent. So the methods of training are different. We do not train like the judoka.

Talking about judoka and the video you supplied re: randori - I could easily comment that it just looked like two guys pulling each other around. Should I "call into question the efficacy of their practice."? There were many opportunities for one of them to punch, elbow or kick the other to more effectively defeat him. But that's not judo. It's different.

As for the karate practice video in that post, they were practicing getting the moves done correctly. I'm sure judoka also when practicing to get a technique down, spend time practicing without much resistance. There is resistance training in a good karate school, but as I mentioned above, a finger thrust to the throat, or a full power kick to the knee to overcome that resistance is just not practical. So karate training is different, like all martial arts are from one another.

There is professional full contact sport MA, sport point striking MA, sport grappling MA, MMA, military combat style MA, etc. Each one is different with different goals, different fundamentals, different training. Hard to compare apples and oranges. I eat both, but I like oranges better, and don't feel guilty about it.

 

[drop bear]

There is professional full contact sport MA, sport point striking MA, sport grappling MA, MMA, military combat style MA, etc. Each one is different with different goals, different fundamentals, different training. Hard to compare apples and oranges. I eat both, but I like oranges better, and don't feel guilty about it.

Not really. Either you can do the thing or you can't.

I can't compare grappling to skate boarding. But I can see if someone is doing it wrong

 

[Hanzou]

Yes, there is a very big difference... since you are comparing apples and oranges. In judo and wrestling it is possible to fully execute a technique without injuring your partner. In a striking art, this is not possible - efficacy can lead to hospitalization. Know also that for a particular move to work, it is sometimes necessary to do another move first to injure/disrupt the opponent. So the methods of training are different. We do not train like the judoka.

This is silly. MMA practitioners are capable of practicing striking with grappling all the time. Why are you making excuses here for the absence of grappling in a full contact kumite within highly traditional Okinawan karate?

Talking about judoka and the video you supplied re: randori - I could easily comment that it just looked like two guys pulling each other around. Should I "call into question the efficacy of their practice."? There were many opportunities for one of them to punch, elbow or kick the other to more effectively defeat him. But that's not judo. It's different.

Well there's no striking in Judo outside of their kata, so I would not expect to see Judoka striking each other. There's also no grappling in Karate outside of their kata, which is why I wasn't surprised to see very little grappling in a full contact kumite. Notice a pattern here? When something is locked behind the kata wall, it tends to not be practiced. Thus, when the rubber hits the road you end up simply not using it because you haven't developed the muscle memory to pull it from your toolbox.

MMA fighters learn grappling pretty much the way wrestlers, judoka, and BJJ practitioners learn grappling, so it is far easier to employ it when actually fighting. If I pulled up MMA full contact sparring similar to that Okinawan Karate kumite, you would see grappling constantly, because they're simply using a superior training method of combining grappling with striking.

As for the karate practice video in that post, they were practicing getting the moves done correctly. I'm sure judoka also when practicing to get a technique down, spend time practicing without much resistance. There is resistance training in a good karate school, but as I mentioned above, a finger thrust to the throat, or a full power kick to the knee to overcome that resistance is just not practical. So karate training is different, like all martial arts are from one another.

Again, are we talking about the Uechi-Ryu video where they're going over the grappling techniques in the kata, or are we talking about the 10-person kumite video where it's showing Goju-Ryu black belts in Okinawa treating a big white guy like a giant punching bag? My point here is that in the full contact kumite video very little grappling is employed. If you blink you miss the very few attempts of grappling made, and it generally came from a "clinch" situation, not the "seizing" concepts found in the bunkai.

What does this tell me? Exactly what I mentioned about grappling in karate earlier; It's "there", but good luck learning how to properly employ it.