does karate include grappling

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Talk' started by hoshin1600, Jan 4, 2021.

  1. MartialMasterTeddy

    MartialMasterTeddy Yellow Belt

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2020
    Messages:
    20
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    3
    Location:
    Columbus, OH - USA
    What you are espousing is your personal viewpoint so definitely I can not agree with your parties views.

    But Judo or Gentle Way can be done without grappling also although I do not disagree if someone categorizes it as a Grappling style. Same Aikido-- or Aikido++
     
  2. MartialMasterTeddy

    MartialMasterTeddy Yellow Belt

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2020
    Messages:
    20
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    3
    Location:
    Columbus, OH - USA
    Actually Aikido, is redirecting the energy flow with minimal grappling.
     
  3. Hanzou

    Hanzou Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2013
    Messages:
    5,928
    Likes Received:
    868
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Judo has newaza with pins and submission, so regardless of any difference of opinions on what they do on their feet, on the ground they're definitely doing grappling.
     
  4. MartialMasterTeddy

    MartialMasterTeddy Yellow Belt

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2020
    Messages:
    20
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    3
    Location:
    Columbus, OH - USA
    Well, if we were in a Different Era, perhaps 13/15 like we should had been most likely been without much doubt, I advise you not to be a macho Karatedo man who goes around starting rigged (fixed) fights claiming it is superior Way to Wing Chun then finally getting annihilated by a Wing Chun Grandmaster and not apologizing.
     
  5. Tony Dismukes

    Tony Dismukes MT Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2005
    Messages:
    5,771
    Likes Received:
    4,276
    Trophy Points:
    448
    Location:
    Lexington, KY
    I'd put it a little differently:

    If you only practice grappling via solo kata (as opposed to the 2 person kata seen in traditional Japanese arts), then you aren't learning grappling. The presence of grappling moves in the kata may indicate that the founders of the system did grappling, but you aren't learning it. (Especially since, in my observation, generations of separation from grappling application has led many karate schools to gradually change the body dynamics embodied in the kata to the point where they no longer reflect the correct body dynamics for the grappling techniques they once contained.)

    If your practice also includes drilling of the grappling applications with a partner, then you are learning grappling. If you don't also practice application against a resisting opponent (either in sparring or real-life application for those whose occupation/lifestyle leads to such opportunities), then you won't be very good at it when push comes to shove, but you are technically learning grappling.

    If your practice also includes actual application (typically in sparring) against a resisting opponent, then you are learning grappling and may develop usable skills. I have seen karateka successfully execute sweeps, throws, and grabbing to set up punches in sparring. I consider this to be legitimate grappling. It may be a very limited subset of grappling, but it is real grappling.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
  6. punisher73

    punisher73 Senior Master

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2004
    Messages:
    3,561
    Likes Received:
    608
    Trophy Points:
    248
    No, the original question asked about if karate contained grappling and talked about the original karate and kung fu (read the quotes).

    What you are trying to argue has to do with each independent school and how they train, which is not the question.

    Yes, karate has grappling. Yes, there are schools that still train it. Just because you are more familiar with the "family friendly" strip mall McDojo version of "krotty" doesn't change what it was and is in many places still.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  7. Monkey Turned Wolf

    Monkey Turned Wolf MT Moderator Staff Member

    Top Poster Of Month

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2012
    Messages:
    8,342
    Likes Received:
    2,541
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    New York
    What exactly would you consider what you do in judo, if not grappling?
     
  8. Hanzou

    Hanzou Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2013
    Messages:
    5,928
    Likes Received:
    868
    Trophy Points:
    263
    The title of the thread is DOES Karate contain grappling, as in the present tense. Further, Shotokan is one of, if not the most widespread form of Japanese karate around, so chances are if you’re learning Karate, you’re learning Shotokan or an equivalent.

    Again, I brought up Shotokan because it was brought up to me. I’ve said nothing about Okinawan Karate, but again if we’re basing an art having “grappling” based purely on hidden stuff found in the kata, I would be highly skeptical that you’re actually learning any viable grappling.

    Also it’s fair to say that the vast majority of people taking Karate today ARE taking the mcdojo/strip mall variety.
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2021
  9. jobo

    jobo Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2017
    Messages:
    9,290
    Likes Received:
    1,414
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Manchester UK
    ok thats an improvement, now its only some karate that doesnt,

    that still lEaves the anser to the question as yes( some) karate has grappling, not as you would have it,,,, NO

    nb most of the rest of the world isnt big on strip malls, the ones we have that could be so desribed, dont tend to have ma included, coz they are generaly prime retail space and cost a fortune.

    i have no idea if shotokan the world over is devoid of grappling, but then nther do you ! nor do you know if the majority of shotokan schools around the world are macdojos? that term is far from clearly defined and is as revealed by the name, a very american concept
     
  10. Buka

    Buka Sr. Grandmaster

    • MartialTalk Mentor
    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2011
    Messages:
    10,952
    Likes Received:
    7,235
    Trophy Points:
    448
    Location:
    Maui
    Grappling has to be taught by an experienced, knowledgeable instructor that includes not only drills, but rolling against serious resistance. If not, it's akin to one step Kumite where your opponent throws a half hearted punch that was never meant to hit you, then stands like a statue as you step around him pantomiming various combinations of feel good bull ship.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
  11. jobo

    jobo Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2017
    Messages:
    9,290
    Likes Received:
    1,414
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Manchester UK
    you only have to roll if your stand up grappling is rubish
     
  12. KenpoMaster805

    KenpoMaster805 Black Belt

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2016
    Messages:
    555
    Likes Received:
    98
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Location:
    Oxnard California
    Yes there's grappling in all martial arts
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  13. punisher73

    punisher73 Senior Master

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2004
    Messages:
    3,561
    Likes Received:
    608
    Trophy Points:
    248
    It still IS in karate.

    There are about 50-100 million people practicing karate (depending on your source), only about 6 million practice Shotokan. So about 1 out of 12 people practice Shotokan. Not really a high "chance" if you are a betting person.

    Any art long enough and popular enough devolves into a mcdojo eventually. Even BJJ is heading there in some places. Look at the Machado "celebrity version", he now teaches that doesn't emphasize hard sparring so you don't get bumps/bruises. There are BJJ schools that grapple from the knees only and never from a standing position with takedowns etc. or compete. So, moving forward, if that becomes the norm as it spreads in popularity, are you going to argue that BJJ has takedowns because that is how you were taught or are you going to start slamming it and say if you want to learn takedowns you need to really study "X"? Same exact argument/discussion.

    Those of us that were taught properly are going to stick up for what karate DOES have. I'm willing to concede that in many schools they have stopped teaching the majority of "old school" karate to make money off of it with soccer moms and kids. But, that isn't the argument. You are trying to argue training methods of what is there.
     
  14. punisher73

    punisher73 Senior Master

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2004
    Messages:
    3,561
    Likes Received:
    608
    Trophy Points:
    248
    Sorry, I did want to add an additional part to Hanzou.

    I agree if the "hidden grappling" is stuff pulled out of modern BJJ/MMA and is suddenly "magically found again".

    For example, I have seen some CRAP that karate people have tried to sell as "long lost kata secrets" that are complete lies. For example, one guy was trying to peddle the crossover step from Naihanchi kata as a hidden "triangle choke" for on the ground.

    I am with you all day long, that this type of thing is utter BS and utter fabrication and delusional.
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Agree Agree x 1
  15. isshinryuronin

    isshinryuronin Black Belt

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2019
    Messages:
    641
    Likes Received:
    484
    Trophy Points:
    218
    Location:
    Las Vegas
    "Grappling" is a spectrum. On one end you have wrestling, judo, and BJJ. Here, grappling is the end object, finishing the fight, whether sport or actual, in most cases on the ground with submission or points based on the grappling technique.

    On the other end is karate where grappling is only the means to an end, the end mostly being a finishing strike with the victor usually on his feet (sometimes on a knee after a takedown.) Its main purpose is to set up and facilitate the strike. In kata, this is often hidden, but in application, it is of great importance (to those educated in its use.)

    With such differing goals, the grappling techniques from one end of the spectrum are of limited use to the other end. Naihanchi is called a "grappling" kata (most all Okinawan kata are to some extent,) but the grappling is of a much different kind than judo or BJJ. Attempting to put a judo or BJJ interpretation into a karate form is likely doomed to failure.

    I admit that when teaching kata, I use the term grappling. But it must be understood that it is much different than wrestling grappling. For this reason (especially after reading this thread) I like referring to karate as a seizing/striking art.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  16. MartialMasterTeddy

    MartialMasterTeddy Yellow Belt

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2020
    Messages:
    20
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    3
    Location:
    Columbus, OH - USA
    Hi, I am thinking of demonstrating my version of pure Judo or Jukukakai on a public platform and stage. Please follow up with me in a timely fashion.
     
  17. Tony Dismukes

    Tony Dismukes MT Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2005
    Messages:
    5,771
    Likes Received:
    4,276
    Trophy Points:
    448
    Location:
    Lexington, KY
    I would be very interested to see what sort of Judo you would consider to not consist of grappling.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  18. Monkey Turned Wolf

    Monkey Turned Wolf MT Moderator Staff Member

    Top Poster Of Month

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2012
    Messages:
    8,342
    Likes Received:
    2,541
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    New York
    I meant what word would you use for judo? Mostly these things are separated into striking, grappling, and weapons, and of those three judo would fall into grappling, so I'm guessing you're using a different template. Which would be good to know before debating.
     
  19. Hanzou

    Hanzou Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2013
    Messages:
    5,928
    Likes Received:
    868
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Fair enough, but as a betting man, I'm willing to bet "grappling" in other styles of Karate aren't going to fair much better than the Shotokan example.

    Absolutely. In fact I recommend people to take up wrestling to learn takedowns all the time.

    But again, it doesn't matter if its there, what matters is how it's taught in the modern day. For example, if someone asked if Judo contained leg locks and you said yeah and pointed to the kata, you'd be technically right but mainly wrong because you'd be hard pressed to find a Judoka who knows how to do effective leg locks purely from Judo practice.
     
  20. Hanzou

    Hanzou Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2013
    Messages:
    5,928
    Likes Received:
    868
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Exactly. That's how I was taught in Karate, and I got nothing from that practice.

    Agreed. No argument there.123
     

Share This Page