Does anyone here practice KFM?

Discussion in 'Western Martial Arts - General' started by Mr. President, Feb 26, 2013.

  1. Mr. President

    Mr. President Green Belt

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    It's increasing in popularity thanks to the Batman movies, and the videos do give a somewhat clear indication of what this method relies on. The thing is, it's very recent, so I'm not sure the jury's in on its effectiveness, though it does seem to be potentially lethal, given the number of elbow strikes it entails.

    Does anyone here practice it? Know of anyone who does?
     
  2. Cyriacus

    Cyriacus Senior Master

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    Its also hilarious. Hilarious in so many ways. Lethal? No.
     
  3. Mr. President

    Mr. President Green Belt

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    Matter of perspective, I guess. A lot of people consider the various animal stances in KF to be hilarious.

    How would you know?
     
  4. Cyriacus

    Cyriacus Senior Master

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    The stances? No. The guard is a great way to get broken hands (No, wait! Your elbows will break their hands, because humans are retards who dont avoid obstacles!), most of the elbow strikes would be impossible under pressure (No, wait! Theyre elbows, therefore its a close quarter combat system!), and the headbutts to the torso are stupid (No, wait! Zambidis in a soccer thing!).
    How would i know? Common sense. If youve seen their videos and taken them seriously id like to ask you the same question.



    The amount of hilarity is hilarious.
     
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  5. Mr. President

    Mr. President Green Belt

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    Your unnecessary cynicism aside, the way they're fighting seems very street oriented to me. It's an instinct to cover your head with your hands in that posture, so to make it a weapon sounds like a natural evolution of that. In terms of headbutts, I think it could be very effective. A thug on the street never expects his "victim" to use a headbutt. The combination of two very strong bones in the body, like elbows and craniums, could be potentially deadly, if done right.

    I guess it's natural that recent self defense methods get a lot of suspicion and ridicule at first. I'm sure Judo got its fair share of that when it was new.
     
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  6. Cyriacus

    Cyriacus Senior Master

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    Street oriented? Yeah, i see lots of people cover their heads like that. Especially when theyre curled up in a ball on the ground. Or rather, only. The guard also doesnt cover the sides of your head at all, and frames you up like a human punching bag.
    As far as i know, headbutts are commonplace and quite expected. The torso is just a really stupid target for one. It also leaves you quite defenseless.
    The elbows are fine as striking tools - Its this way of using them thats hilariously stupid. Though as for deadly, this system would be deadly for the victim if they tried to use it.

    Recent self defense methods dont get much suspicion. There are plenty of actually useful systems made, in some cases, more recently than Keysis that are accepted, useful, and verifiable. Judo doesnt have stupid things in it like grabbing your head and hitting with the weakest part of your elbow joint whilst your opponent stands there looking at you, awed by your Keysi-ness.

    Im not cynical, im criticizing things that are stupid. So far, your retort has been that people cover their heads when they curl up in a ball, and headbutts and elbows actually work, and that recent self defence methods get alot of suspicion and ridicule (totally ignoring all the ones that dont).

    EDIT: Id also like to know how you define 'thug'. Because i suspect it may need correcting, if you think that 'thugs on the street' 'never expect' certain things.
     
  7. mook jong man

    mook jong man Senior Master

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    I can only say that as a Wing Chun person , elbow strikes are used as a finishing technique.
    Its usually a series of punches immediately followed by the elbow strike.

    Attempting to traverse the gap between punching range and elbow strike range without any proceeding punches means you are vulnerable to being punched yourself before you can get into range to strike with your elbow.
     
  8. Mr. President

    Mr. President Green Belt

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    Yeah. It's an instinctive defensive cover. Presumably, someone who hits you in a way that would force that response from you, is close enough that you can strike the elbow or your cranium to a soft part, like mouth or eyes or throat.

    Move your hands backwards and it will. It's not as if other martial arts don't involve defensive movements.

    Expected by whom? People who bully or harass people who they perceive to be weaker, don't expect a forceful response, and they sure as hell don't expect a headbutt.

    For less than a second, and that's all you need for you head to make contact, which would, presumably, compromise your opponent's balance.

    And then:

    Seriously?

    The difference is miniscule in the context of a rapid fight. I don't know everything about KFM. My assumption is it deals with that. I doubt that if you ask the founders of KFM that question, they'll say: "****! We never thought of that!"
     
  9. jks9199

    jks9199 Administrator Staff Member

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    Folks, let's be careful how we discuss other arts. Some of the responses here are pretty harsh, and I'm kind of sure we've got a rule against art bashing. You can discuss the art's strengths and weaknesses, but let's try to keep it professional and objective, OK?
     
  10. mook jong man

    mook jong man Senior Master

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    The difference might be miniscule , but it can be enough for you to get your face smashed in if your dealing with someone who throws multiple fast punches.
     
  11. Cyriacus

    Cyriacus Senior Master

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    Theyre also in the process of hitting you. If youre able to cover your head and swing wide elbows at them, theyve stopped doing what theyre doing.

    Whilst swinging your elbows? So, you cover your head. You then try to swing your head with your elbows, but in the process you idenitfy the angle of their strikes, assess the range, and cover your head accordingly? It isnt defense i take issue to.

    Those arent the people you need to worry about. But even in mundane fights, headbutting is quite common, in this country at least. I cant speak for others.
    Also, even bullies arent stupid. Unfortunately, unlike what some school teachers might say, bullies usually arent just losers who pick on people to make themselves feel good when really theyre compensating for something, or various other tales.

    The average untrained person can throw about five punches per second. They dont care what youre doing.

    Get someone to punch you bare knuckle in the back of your open hand, five times with good follow through in rapid succession.

    In a rapid fight, you probably wont have time to cover your head with both hands, assess what kind of strike is coming at you, cover your head accordingly, then swing your body at them from the correct range. I dont know everything about KFM either, but for what its worth, what they HAVE thought of is that their style is instinctive, and in you already. I mean, you see the stuff in that video happen all the time, surely.

    What do you consider to be the good things in the system? Headbutting isnt new, but throwing it low to the body will strain your neck with contact (And youre welcome to try that at home, if you have something with a decent mass and some hard bones in it to ram your head into at collarbone height). Elbowing isnt new either.
    Have you tried even just mimicking the movements yourself at high speed to see how instinctive and 'in your blood' they are? Maybe they are in your blood, and youve struck your own personal gold.
     
  12. Tony Dismukes

    Tony Dismukes Senior Master

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    The guard position actually seems similar to the "crazy monkey" defense taught by Rodney King of the Straight Blast Gym, although the applications are different. In the clips I can see some stuff that seems potentially workable as well as some details that seem on the iffy side from my prespective.

    My biggest problem is that all the clips I've seen so far are shot in a modern cinematic style with lots of fast cuts to make the action look exciting rather than a detail-oriented instructional style. Without having first hand experience of KFM, I'd hesitate to make too many judgments of the art one way or the other based on that sort of footage.
     
  13. Cyriacus

    Cyriacus Senior Master

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    To add to my comments, i dont take issue to the guard. I take issue to using it as a way to roll in elbow strikes. As soon as you widen your elbows, youre totally open with your hands in the center like that. Thats assuming we dont factor in grappling. Covering your head has perks.
    The second thing is, they made that promotional video. If i put up an advertisement for a system, you're obviously going to read that advertisement and react to it, rather than base your viewpoint on speculation.

    For the sake of fair discussion, here you go:



     
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  14. Tez3

    Tez3 Sr. Grandmaster

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    Third video down, we had their fighters on our shows, they all lost.......badly.

    Andy Norman himself has had only two fights, won one lost one. The one he won was against an opponent with a record of 0-0-0

    whatever the merits of KFM in general are, the MMA is pants.
     
  15. Tony Dismukes

    Tony Dismukes Senior Master

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    After examining the additional videos that Cyriacus posted, I can see more details that appear suboptimal to me. On the other hand, I've seen much, much worse out there. If I was going to start bashing arts or instructors, these guys would be nowhere near the top of my list to pick on.

    Tez - I'm not surprised that they aren't doing well in MMA competition. The standup technique seemed optimized for use against uneducated street brawlers rather than against trained fighters. The clip showing G-n-P in someones guard wasn't terrible, but honestly the only way to get really good at that is to practice against people who have really good MMA guards. I don't know if they have anyone like that to train with.
     
  16. Cyriacus

    Cyriacus Senior Master

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    And the issue ive taken to it is that it seems to assume that the uneducated street brawlers wont actually do anything whilst they swing their elbows. In every single video offered, when they cover their head and use their elbows, the other person just sits there. Even if that method works, the demonstrations are done compliantly, in favorable conditions.
     
  17. James Kovacich

    James Kovacich Senior Master

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    KFM had a following in Europe but I haven't heard anything about them for a long time till this thread. With that said, if I remember correctly they were an offshoot from Dan Inosantos JKD.
     
  18. Tony Dismukes

    Tony Dismukes Senior Master

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    I get your point, but lets face it - this problem is endemic to martial arts demonstrations across the board. These guys are actually less egregious than many I've seen. My "favorites" are the schools where the attacker comes in with a lunge punch that stops six inches short of the defenders face, then stands still with the punch fully extended while the defender executes a complex combination that ends with a throw that depends on grabbing the punch which has been left hanging out for several seconds.
     
  19. Tez3

    Tez3 Sr. Grandmaster

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    A review of the fighting in the Batman films by someone who has trained Keysi.
    http://theselfdefenceexpert.com/key...e-dark-knight-rises-a-review-of-the-fighting/

    "So what about the fighting in The Dark Knight Rises. Well actually the Keysi on display this time looked very cool, however it did have a lot of other elements mixed in as well. I expected this as it is not a pure Keysi style in the films more of an adapted one, it is slower due to Batman's size and suit. The final fight scene has a lot of boxing mixed in,........"
     
  20. James Kovacich

    James Kovacich Senior Master

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    Self defense should be judged against self defense not MMA. The KFM guys failed at MMA possibly because they brought their style to the game and failed to properly "train for the game." MMA isn't the bar to judge self defense but it is a great indicator for judging fighters. In fact I preach that one has to include training to beat MMA. So it is a force to be reckoned with.

    As far as self defense goes. How does KFM compare to other self defense on the net?
     
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