Do karate schools in the US not teach dirty fighting any more or do you have to move to Japan?

Discussion in 'Karate' started by moonhill99, Aug 26, 2015.

  1. Dirty Dog

    Dirty Dog MT Senior Moderator Staff Member

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    Those are not "fancy" kicks by moist peoples definition. You'll see all of them used regularly in competition.
     
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  2. reeskm

    reeskm Green Belt

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    totally agree with dirty dog. you can kick to three levels just like you can with hand techniques. how does the old saying go? those that say it can't be done or who are not doing it shouldn't interrupt the one who is.

    i've trained in Japan, and at the end of my small time there the black belts asked me "so what was the difference between training here or at home?" and the best I could come up with at the time was "actually... it's really the same". They taught me some very nice full contact stuff as it was a kyokushin dojo - stuff that I consider nice and "nasty". Well, it was 90% humidity and 30 degees celsius in the dojo that day, but you just persevere... I can't decide if the 10 degree dojang with 20% humidity and cracked dry skin is worse or better! And after all, training should be that way shouldn't it?

    On a lighter note, Canada is closer, and the excange rate is a 25% discount for you my yankee friends! So if you don't want to fly all the way to Japan, come train at my dojang! we teach all that stuff the OP wants to know. And I have no problem at all admitting karate or taekwondo, or any other practitioners. :)
     
  3. Touch Of Death

    Touch Of Death Sr. Grandmaster

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    Who are these moist people you speak of? :)
     
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  4. Dirty Dog

    Dirty Dog MT Senior Moderator Staff Member

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    Why, the people doing these fancy kicks, of course! Moist, damp, sweaty... Pick your word.
    :)
    I usually do a better job of proofreading my posts. I'll be more careful in the future.


    Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Not TapaTalk. Really.
     
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  5. Tony Dismukes

    Tony Dismukes MT Moderator Staff Member

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    Based on previous conversations, unless I'm mistaken, moonhill99 has still not begun training in any martial art. He seems to be content to read about them, watch videos, and theorize.
     
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  6. Manny

    Manny Senior Master

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    In every single dojo I step in the dirty methods of strikes you mentiones are taught, but are used in a controled way in self defense only.
    El Manny
     
  7. MatsumuraKarate

    MatsumuraKarate Yellow Belt

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    The poster that started the Kempo topic couldn't be more wrong. First off if you are using any style of Karate based in Japan that is your first mistake. Real Karate comes from Okinawa. You will rarely if ever see the Okinawans teaching kicks higher than the stomach. Unless they break your leg then kick you in the face. Japanese Karate is watered down, and targeted at being taught to mass amounts of people. Okinawan Karate doesn't share this methodology. Okinawan Karate even to this day is kept very low key and classes are small. We use high very natural stances. We rely of trapping and close quarters attacks as our bread and butter. To even categorize Okinawan and Japanese Karate together is foolish. Japanese Karate, like many other Japanese ryuha has been developed for competition. Okinawan still focused on actual self defense.
     
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  8. Tez3

    Tez3 Sr. Grandmaster

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  9. Touch Of Death

    Touch Of Death Sr. Grandmaster

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    Well, at least we know where to send people, now. :)
     
  10. tigercrane

    tigercrane Yellow Belt

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    Respectfully, I'd hate to rain on your parade but would like to emphasize this: Okinawan karate is way watered down nowadays as well. If interested, read one of my rather lengthy posts here. This was the post in regards to efficacy of kata, etc.

    I have trained for about year and a half at one dojo (no name will be mentioned) in Northen Tampa, which is home to Isshin-ryu style karate. They have two types of curriculums: one for kids (and teens) and another one for adults.

    At this dojo, the kids (and teens) are learning kata and train for tournaments that take place twice or three times a year. They do not learn realistic self-defense techniques to help develop skills. That is what's wrong with Karate in general. You enter the dojo waiting room, you see the faces of soccer-moms eagerly waiting to take a snapshot of their child while they train and you understand why the kids will never evolve into true martial artists. This is simply not needed and it is not what they are paying for. Parents are paying for their children to go to tournaments, bring trophies home and collect belts along the way. And dojos do cater to what the market demands - that is to stay open.

    Now, getting back to the thread, a true Okinawan karate is a hard work and a lot of sweat, bruises, sprained ankles, dislocated joints and a lot of hurting. The poster is saying something about dirty fighting, which is rather amusing because there is no such definition. When it comes to ending the fight, it is important to deliver a good strike at a vital point and do it swiftly because there may never be another chance.

    If a powerfully delivered tsuki to the neck is considered dirty in self-defense situation, then I suppose it is, but it is nothing special except it will probably kill the opponent. What about kick to the groin? There is nothing special to it unless it is a kick aimed at the lower right or lower left area of the pelvis where one kick could disrupt the flow of blood over femoral artery and break the pelvic bone. Is it a dirty kick? Not really!

    Having said that, even these fundamental basics as properly delivered punches and kicks are not being taught at Okinawan karate dojos anymore. BTW I had a talk with Sensei who is Roku Dan and is a descendant of Sensei Mitchem, one of the several marines that trained in Okinawa under Soke Tatsuo Shimabuku and he knows the real stuff. He trained for almost 30 years but he is simply not teaching any of this to his students.
     
  11. MatsumuraKarate

    MatsumuraKarate Yellow Belt

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    That is just one school. I don't not teach children because I feel that don't yet have the maturity to learn things that can really hurt people. Yes a lot of Okinawan karate is watered down. But Japanese Karate is a watered down version of the real thing. That is fact. The karate Funakoshi practiced and taught were both very different. He was one of the first to learn how to cash in on Karate
     
  12. Hanzou

    Hanzou Grandmaster

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    I suppose it was only a matter of time before Okinawan stylists started pulling rank on Japanese stylists.
     
  13. tigercrane

    tigercrane Yellow Belt

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    I agree. The original poster has asked if it was necessary to go to Okinawa (Japan) for training. My answer would be no. There are good masters in the US and in Europe. They are hard to find, but they are out there.
     
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  14. Koshiki

    Koshiki Brown Belt

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    It's only dirty if it takes place in the mud and goes to the ground. Otherwise is just fighting.

    I usually hold the position that the basis of every martial art, including sports, is to stack the deck in your favour as much as is ethical, legal, and practical. There is cheating in a sport, there is no cheating outside of a sport. Rules, yes, cheating no, hence, no "dirty" fighting.

    That said, relying on groin grabs, eye-rakes, small-joint and the like isn't going to win the day.
     
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  15. Star Dragon

    Star Dragon Orange Belt

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    Southern Chinese styles tend to focus on vital target and vital point strikes, that includes White Crane and Taiji. It also spread out to the Okinawan and Hawaiian Kempo styles. These are all excellent for self-defence if taught accordingly.

    Japanese Karate styles are mostly sports. The forms have been altered to look more pleasing at tournaments but their true interpretation (bunkai) is often unknown or neglected. The sparring taught is a far cry from realistic fighting.
     
  16. Tez3

    Tez3 Sr. Grandmaster

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    A rather large generalisation there. There is also now a wider appreciation of kata with the bunkai being taught in many places. Sparring can be for sport but can also be for self defence.
    There is always a temptation to assume that your experience or what you see in one place is the norm when it's not.
     
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  17. Star Dragon

    Star Dragon Orange Belt

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    I do hope that with the efforts of pioneering reformers like Tetsuhiko Asai and Werner Lind, among others, some things are changing for the better in the Karate world. In truth, their reforms are a return to the roots.

    However, I believe that what I have described is still the norm in Japanese Karate - but there can always be exceptions.
     
  18. Tez3

    Tez3 Sr. Grandmaster

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    As I've said I believe you are generalising, how many countries have you visited and how many karate cubs/schools? How many organisations? Which styles are you talking about? To say Japanese 'karate' when karate is such a generic term anyway can be misleading. A lot of people say they are doing 'karate' but they aren't.
     
  19. Buka

    Buka Sr. Grandmaster

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    No dirty fighting at all, children under ten years old only, and we try not to hurt each others feelings. Oh, and we exchange Christmas cards a lot.

    You should go to Okinawa and send us cool postcards.
     
  20. Douglasmase

    Douglasmase White Belt

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    I actually agree with your assessment on this topic for the most part. Ultimately though it's up to the instructor.

    Most of my previous instructors deal with regulation rules in tournaments. I understand they are in place to keep competitors safe. But that doesn't help in the streets.

    It wasn't until I found Krav Maga that I learned one simple rule, "there are no rules when it comes to self defense. " that being said my focus, as an instructor is to teach my students, is to do what it takes. So ultimately it is up to the instructor to get their head s around that.

    After all we practice martial arts, a militaristic art.123
     

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