Disadvantages of Kenpo?

[Rainman]

Originally posted by Brother John
You are out of line Rainman.
You are smarter and more mature than this.

Get on decaf
take a deep breath
and play nice.

I often respect your views, and I know that Robert can rub the wrong way at times, but this venom solves nothing.
Just once I'd like us all to be able to go very far in a discussion without any hatred or animosity expressed.

Your Brother
John

Don't smoke, drink, use drugs or caffeine and I breathe very well thank you. Smarter than what, expressing my opinion because this is America? I do not like control freaks and that is how you are coming off to me- care to rephrase?

I didn't mention or even hint at this concept. I don't see what you are getting at.

I believe that 'action' is THE heart of the art.
Theory, concepts, principles, opinion, paradigm, philosophy....etc. are tools, useful only so far as they lead to a better dynamic expression of Kenpo in action.
((Thus my cat in motion avatar))

I was saying that the dynamic expression of physical action/Kenpo is what's really at the heart of Kenpo... everything else is window dressing.

You flat out said action is THE heart of the art. Dynamic expression of physical action/Kenpo is another CONCEPT. Opinion is a sub cat under theory.

Everything else is window dressing? So the physical is everything to you... Did you know that most tigers don't root very well? Do you know why?

 

[Rainman]

Originally posted by Touch'O'Death
This reminds me of the time Santa put all his reindeer on the space shuttle so they could be the "herd shot 'round the world."
Sean

I see you been watering that oil slick again

 

[Seig]

-Moderator Note-
Gentlemen, let's keep it polite, respectfull and on topic.
-Seig-
-MT Assistant Admin-

 

[Touch Of Death]

The heart of kenpo? let me see
1. Attitude (your mental and physical position)
2. A strong punch of the back hand (including posture, balance, relaxation ect.)
3. An effective lead hand.
4. Move around
sean

 

[Brother John]

Originally posted by Rainman
Don't smoke, drink, use drugs or caffeine and I breathe very well thank you. Smarter than what, expressing my opinion because this is America? I do not like control freaks and that is how you are coming off to me- care to rephrase?

I didn't mention or even hint at this concept. I don't see what you are getting at.

I believe that 'action' is THE heart of the art.
Theory, concepts, principles, opinion, paradigm, philosophy....etc. are tools, useful only so far as they lead to a better dynamic expression of Kenpo in action.
((Thus my cat in motion avatar))

I was saying that the dynamic expression of physical action/Kenpo is what's really at the heart of Kenpo... everything else is window dressing.

You flat out said action is THE heart of the art. Dynamic expression of physical action/Kenpo is another CONCEPT. Opinion is a sub cat under theory.

Everything else is window dressing? So the physical is everything to you... Did you know that most tigers don't root very well? Do you know why?

OK man. You are pretty darn passionate about your position.
That's cool.
I meant the decaf bit to be a tension breaker (humor) not a tension creator.
I was being honest when I said that I usually like to read your posts, and I'm sorry I've earned your ire.
BUT: I still say that Action is not a concept.
action is action.
"to beet and action, meet an action" is speaking of intercepting a trajectory... I was saying that they physical DOING of Kenpo is (I feel) the heart of Kenpo.

Dynamic expression of physical action/Kenpo is another CONCEPT

No, dynamic expression of physical action is the body in motion, it's not addressing any thought processes at all. It's talking about being in motion executing/doing Kenpo.
My point is, Kenpo is about action. I've never taken a single Kenpo class with the key thought behind it that I wanted to learn to "think" about Kenpo... but that I wanted to be able to do Kenpo. The thinking is a tool that SHOULD lead to a better performance. The thinking is a means to an end, and that 'end' is improved execution & ability in DOING Kenpo.....which is THE heart.
I do hope you see where I'm coming from in this.
I don't just want to be contradictory with you, and I'm going to continue to try to not be antagonistic toward you. You seem overall to be a good person.
You've got great taste in arts to study.:asian:
Your Brother
John

 

[Rainman]

I see where you are going... Mushin another concept. The highest concept with many levels.

Yes you want to go unconscious and that is where the genie exists. Superconscious, unconscious, blackouts, Mushin (no mind) are still concepts. Athletes call it the zone.

Tons of hours spent on the mat using concepts, theories and principles make the genie that much better. It is circular you can't get around it. Concepts rule the physical but without the physical there is no need for concepts. Concepts allow you to be adaptable, repetition allows you to relax. Relaxing allows for ease of movement, ease of movement allows for speed without trying...Mushin.

There is more but it is your turn.

 

[Michael Billings]

In my promotion ceremony, one of the things I say after the belts form the letter "L", is that "The "L" is open at the top, signifying the intellectual and spiritual growth that is available through Kenpo, I can train your body, but it is a whole lot easier when I can bring your mind along also."

You can make someone execute a technique correctly, with the proper stimuli, or correction, but without teaching them the "WHY" you are not teaching them about "Motion", just "what to do." If the goal is to teach them how to think and analyze Motion on their own, then you have to teach the Principles, Concepts, and Theories.

That being said, I have taught kids and adults that were not ever going to "get it". They could still block and punch sufficiently well to execute a technique - in a fast Primitive, or even Mechanincal, way. I trained their body without taking their mind along. One of my big gripes about running a school as v. a club is that I do accept a wide range of students that are training for a variety of reasons, and they don't all fit in my little mold, i.e. the mold of the ideal student. Would you believe some are there just for exercise, or flexibility, or to do it with their kids or partner. What do you mean you are not here for Self-Defense? GET OUT!! Yeah right, and how do I pay the rent, insurance, and property tax on the school then?

Mushin (no mind) is where we want to be at the highest level of our Art. Whether sparring, in a technique line, or just doing forms (probably the best place to start), mind like the moon or mind like water is the desired state. Now I am getting way out there, and this is not something I articulate often. But getting to Mushin can involve years of intense critical, analytical, sophisticated thought and study of Motion ... just so we can let it when we have to apply our Art.

Waxing philosophical here ... now it is time to wain.

-Michael

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

Ohmygawd! This thread is an example of one of the key characteristics and disadvantages of American Kenpo:

a conceptual discussion about whether or not a particular verb "action" is a concept or an action and whether or not the action or concept described by the word "action" is a concept or an action, and whether it comes from the conceptual "heart" or the conceptual "mind" and how you make it automatic so that you can achieve mindlessness and whether or not that is the heart of the system and whether or not that heart exists in the mind or in action...

Only Kenpoists could take something so simple, make it seem so complex, and get all riled up while arguing about it.

 

[Trent]

If it means anything to anyone, and with all due respect, as I like kenpo/kempo on many levels, but have never studied it formally or informally; however, I can offer an opinion based upon sparring with many kenpo practitioners and interacting with them on other levels as kenpo folks seem to really enjoy KunTao Silat once exposed.

There seem to be two main weaknesses that I have observed in kenpo, generally speaking of course. One is the previously brought up lack of groundwork. Even should you not wish to go there (not my preference) you should know how to function comfortably there or realistically be able to avoid it. The second is an over-intellectuallization or over-analysis of the art which is also a strength. There should be more application and sparring with less discussion of the concepts and techniques for better actualiztion.

I hope no one takes this as an insult, as it is not my intent.

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

Trent: Right on dude! Over-intellectualization till our heads are gonna explode!

 

[MJS]

Originally posted by Trent
If it means anything to anyone, and with all due respect, as I like kenpo/kempo on many levels, but have never studied it formally or informally; however, I can offer an opinion based upon sparring with many kenpo practitioners and interacting with them on other levels as kenpo folks seem to really enjoy KunTao Silat once exposed.

There seem to be two main weaknesses that I have observed in kenpo, generally speaking of course. One is the previously brought up lack of groundwork. Even should you not wish to go there (not my preference) you should know how to function comfortably there or realistically be able to avoid it. The second is an over-intellectuallization or over-analysis of the art which is also a strength. There should be more application and sparring with less discussion of the concepts and techniques for better actualiztion.

I hope no one takes this as an insult, as it is not my intent.

Good post my friend!:asian:

Mike

 

[kkbb]

Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka
Ohmygawd! This thread is an example of one of the key characteristics and disadvantages of American Kenpo:

a conceptual discussion about whether or not a particular verb "action" is a concept or an action and whether or not the action or concept described by the word "action" is a concept or an action, and whether it comes from the conceptual "heart" or the conceptual "mind" and how you make it automatic so that you can achieve mindlessness and whether or not that is the heart of the system and whether or not that heart exists in the mind or in action...

Only Kenpoists could take something so simple, make it seem so complex, and get all riled up while arguing about it.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

&

Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka
What are you guys talking about? There are no disadvantages to Kenpo. It is perfect. Complete. No holes whatsoever. It addresses every conceivable situation. Kenpo principles can be applied at any time. All other Martial Arts are merely subsets of Kenpo. Mr. Parker was divinely inspired. All Kenpo Seniors are divinely inspired. Even NASA uses Kenpo principles to power rocket ships.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Are you sure your not DR. PHIL? he tells it like it is too! OFK for grandmaster! OFK for grandmaster! OFK for grandmaster!

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

Thanks double-K double-B.

I am almost as bald as Dr. Phil, but no where near as well behaved when given the opportunity to poke fun at someone.

 

[kenpo12]

And without much work my nerdism point has been proven.

Thank you to all who participated.

 

[Goldendragon7]

Orig posted by Old Fat Kenpoka
Kenpoists get all riled up while arguing about something.

I prefer not to use the word argue.... but rather debate. This way we can search out each others thoughts a little more respectfully and possibly gain some insight ..... one way or the other.

:asian:

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

And without much work my nerdism point has been proven.

Doh!:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

 

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by Trent
There should be more application and sparring with less discussion of the concepts and techniques for better actualiztion.

"Balance" is what I think is the best possible outcome. Knowledge and physical application.

It seems many may not realize that this is a forum and as such there can be no physical demonstration or feeling in this limited setting. All we can do here is Talk about what feel and do. In reality I think many "DO" a lot more physical then some may think. (and I do realize that there are those that swing more to one side or the other)

:asian:

 

[Brother John]

Originally posted by kenpo12
And without much work my nerdism point has been proven.

Thank you to all who participated.

HOW did you DO that?

point made.

Disadvantage found.

I'm gonna go work on form II now.
Don't ask me if it's action or a concept.
I just like doing it.

Your Brother
John

 

[Goldendragon7]

Orig posted by Brother John
I'm gonna go work on form II now, don't ask me if it's action or a concept.

Hmmmmm, now I'm confused "I" don't know WHICH one it is [concept or action].

:rofl:
:asian:

 

[rmcrobertson]

Hey, "Rainman," thanks for the gratuitous insults. I guess that writing, I disagree," deserves attack. After all, I actually made a very common association of the heart with emotion, spirit, passion--no wonder.

Here are some phases and words that are definitely NOT, "the heart of the art:"

1. On the street
2. He who hesitates meditates in a horizontal position
3. Over-intellectualizing
4. Mushin
5. The paralysis of analysis
6. Not enough grappling
7. The extensions are unnecessary
8. The forms are useless
9. Combat
10. Warrior

These cliches and shibboleths have their place in trying to pass on ideas. They also have their place in making us all feel warm and fuzzy about our own deadliness. But at best, they merely represent concepts, principles, actions.

Since I apparently cannot post anything original anyway, here's a paraphrase from Mr. Tatum: "A teacher isn't impressed by a student's words, but moved by their passion." About the most important manifestation of that passion, I think, is a student's willingness to engage in the daily drudgery of training, and regularly risk the embarassment and occasionally the pain of working out with the other kids. (Of course, for my students it's manifested by their putting up with me.)

Mushin isn't achieved, incidentally, by turning your mind off. Mushin is achieved, if it is achieved at all, by slowly working one's way through the stages of learning until something new happens. Can intellectualizing be a dead end? Absolutely. So can bragging and swaggering, so can closing your body to the study of the forms, so can yakking about being a warrior, so can trying to bully others into agreeing with us.

And so can premature abandonment of thought. Trungpa Rinpoche--himself a real so-and-so--wrote a book about Westerners' propensity for this. he called it, "spiritual materialism:" because, "look how no-minded I am!" and "Look at my new Lexus!" are, at bottom, the same mistake. Me, me, me, lookit what I got.

But then, anybody who's seen the Zen "ox-herding," pictures or read a little D.T. Suzuki and Alan Watts oughta know this already.

I would add that some of this anti-intellectualism comes out of a fundamental commitment to late-Romantic ideas about a return to simplicity. I recommend seeing David Cronenberg's, "They Came From Within," as an antidote.

Or as Tom Joad used to say...