Diffrent punches

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Talk' started by Rat, Jul 11, 2018.

  1. pdg

    pdg Senior Master

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    Reservations about doing what, grading?

    If you don't, then you're stuck on white belt material...
     
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  2. skribs

    skribs Master of Arts

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    If you want to learn martial arts, you're going to have to do a couple of things:

    1. Show up
    2. Trust the instruction

    That means you need to go to class, pay attention while in class, and focus on what you are supposed to be learning. It means not worrying about what you THINK you're supposed to be learning. It means trusting that if they have a belt system, there's a reason for it, and you should train towards the next belt, because that will help solidify the techniques you're working on now and show your school's leaders that you're ready for the next step.

    There's an old saying I've seen in movies a lot, that in order to learn martial arts, you need to unlearn the wrong information you have. It comes across as hokey in those movies, but I think it applies here. What's going to help you best is to be a student. And to be a good student, you need to show up to class and trust that the teacher knows how they're teaching.
     
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  3. Rat

    Rat Purple Belt

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    Thats whats making it not a clear solution for me. :p

    thats going to be the big issue. Guaranteed if i actually fight and win i will trust it better but it hasnt been pressure tested through me for me to trust it completely. It needs to do that to be, like you would test fire a rifle or test a tool to see what it could do. The forms really dont help me for TKD either, past the scope of this thread however.
     
  4. pdg

    pdg Senior Master

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    I really don't think TKD is for you, and you aren't for it.

    Just about everything you've posted has been suggesting you want the shortcut to become a fighting machine, TKD is not that.

    You will lose a lot before you get close to winning, and I think you'll quit in frustration far before that happens.

    Try something with "combat" in the name - don't get me wrong, imo it won't make your chances of actually winning any better, but the scenarios are invariably going to be set up so it feels like you win...
     
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  5. skribs

    skribs Master of Arts

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    Is that because you have scheduling conflicts (i.e. late night classes for school, unpredictable work schedule like a checker at a grocery store or an ER doc), or that your ability to attend class is dependent on someone bringing you (i.e. you're a teenage kid and need a ride from your parents)? Or is it that you're lazy and lack commitment?

    If it's the former, you have my sympathy.

    If it's the later, you get no sympathy from me.

    You would be surprised how much the forms help with. But, if you don't like forms, you can take boxing, Muay Thai, MMA, kickboxing, Krav Maga, or any number of martial arts that don't have forms. Don't use the fact that Taekwondo has forms as an excuse to not do martial arts.

    If you join a school and expect to fight and win, you're going to have to show up and train hard (going back to point #1). You're also not going to win every fight. You'll lose a lot more early on. If your attitude is that you can't trust your teacher until you win a fight, you're probably going to quit before you are good enough to win a fight.

    In our Taekwondo school, we don't even let people spar until purple belt, because people simply don't have enough control over their techniques to avoid accidentally injuring their opponent. Even then, it's usually not until green or blue belt that they really develop that control. So there might be reasons why you're not getting to fight yet.

    Pretty much everyone who has chimed in has agreed with me - the best thing for you to do is to go to a martial arts class. It doesn't have to be Taekwondo or TMA. In fact, if you want to be a punching expert, Taekwondo isn't what I would take. If you want to do a martial arts class without forms and without belts, go do boxing. But you still have to show up to class and trust the instruction.
     
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  6. skribs

    skribs Master of Arts

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    It's funny that we were both composing similar messages at the same time.
     
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  7. Rat

    Rat Purple Belt

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    Mix/personal.

    I cant really see the point in them/haven't been told the point or done a analysis of them. I am looking at others but anything out of my town is difficult to get to and TKD is the only thing in my town and i do the forms when i went etc, i largely prefer the striking practice due to the former point also some of this would be venting from the form segment as well. If i got a good reason why they are done it might make doing traditional ones easier as then i wont have the pointless feeling about them.


    I got to do light free sparring once, i enjoyed doing it. Step sparring is also remotely enjoyable. Its more of a liberal striking school but half of the class is still patterns and its more patterns when its closer to grading etc. Each class is diffrent though, pro and con. Also i am from the U.K and it was a GTUK school.
     
  8. skribs

    skribs Master of Arts

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    To be completely blunt, you don't have the knowledge, skills, or experience to analyze what training tools are or are not effective. This is why I say trust the instruction.
     
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  9. dvcochran

    dvcochran Master Black Belt

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    I don't recommend a "go to" punch. You have to have a broad range of options to adjust to the conditions or opportunities given. Punches are 101 of any style I have ever seen or heard of. If understand you query you are asking for how/why styles and people punch the way they do. For me it is the repetition of class time. The instructor teaching and commitment to my craft.
    I will try to break down the most basic punch I learned from the beginning.
    Starting from a front stance right leg back with both feet and shoulders forward, back leg straight, front knee bent:
    1a.) If I did not step and just thrust with my Right hand that would be a Reverse punch. The palm is Down and the strike is with the index and middle knuckles.
    1b.) If I did not step and just thrust with my Left hand that would be a Jab. Typically they are high punches but not exclusively.
    2a.) If I step, right leg going forward and punch with the Right hand, that is a straight punch. Hand position is the same. It can hit whatever part of the body I desire, naming convention would be relative to the area struck, low, middle, high.
    2b.) If I step, right leg going forward and punch with the Left hand, that would be a Reverse punch. Naming convention would be the same.

    Regarding the wrist, for the punches listed the wrist is straight and contact is with the first two knuckles. As I was taught, if you hold your punch out straight and draw a line from the elbow, the first two knuckles are the only two fully supported by structure. They are also the larger bones in the hand but not by much. I have seen more than a few broken bones on the ring and pinky finger from poor hand positioning.
    An important note, especially for me, is the thumb positioning. It is Under the fingers, not beside and certainly not inside. I am left handed and have broken my left thumb three times, twice by getting it hung in a Dobok sleeve because I was careless with where it was positioned during a punch.

    Let me know it this is the kind of info you are looking for. More detail can be provided.
     
  10. Rat

    Rat Purple Belt

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    So by this basis somone said a vertical punch lines up the bones in your hand to one of the strongest positions they can be. Person in question does pugilism and said they used to work in some healthcare position in relation to hands, i could probbly find the video if you want it.

    Also yes this is the sort of thing im looking for.
     
  11. dvcochran

    dvcochran Master Black Belt

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    Leaving the footwork out of the explanation, we do not practice a lot of techniques with the palm up. For a closed fist punch, we simply call it an uppercut. It is usually a front hand punch whether stepping or not. The location of the strike is either middle or high. The middle uppercut hits just under the ribs, ideally about 6-8 inches off center, digging in and up. very painful and effective. If you were low or on the ground, you could strike the groin or the pressure points or muscles around the knee or inner thigh.
    The high uppercut targets the chin, cheekbone, or nose. I have hit the ear but I don't think that is typical. The punch uses a lot of shoulder muscle and torque, along with the hips and midsection if available. When standing, footwork is important. You usually put more weight on the front leg to help dig in or torque up. I often find myself lower in my stance and dropping my shoulder when throwing an uppercut.
    I do bend my wrist on the uppercut so I can still strike with the first two knuckles but I am careful not to go so far that the wrist could just roll on over.
     
  12. now disabled

    now disabled Master Black Belt

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    Rat you are trying to think far to far ahead of yourself any art no matter what it is, time, patience, perseverance and study are the elements you have to take on board.

    At the moment you are at the bottom of a steep learning curve and you are (like many others have and will) trying to flatten that curve. That will not work as before you can progress you need to learn the basics the fundamentals if you will which then gives you the platform to build on and grow from.

    Some of the questions you are asking (I know little about TKD so I will defer to those who do) are the questions that when you get to Dan rank you start exploring as by then you will have the basics (or hopefully will have) and are then starting to explore.

    No school I have ever attended or visited is going to go into the full on piece by piece breakdown you are looking for at your level and even if they did would you know exactly what they were talking about ? as you are not yet at the level to take on board the nuances or indeed have the basic tech to put it all in context (I am not hitting at you) that will make sense. I have been to seminars where people of your grade attend as they want to know what you are asking and they sit there in silence and are lost and get issed off. It not because the teacher isn't explaining it cause they are, it the beginners are not at the level to absorb that yet. I have even seen white belts get very upset like you seem to be that they were not picked by the teacher to take ukemi ...what they just did not get was if they were picked they'd either get hurt, as they did not actually know what they were doing or they would look stupid as the instructor is going to move at speed as he is trying to show what he explaining, (then he may break it down) but rat that is to yudansha not beginners.

    Your complaining about forms , I assume you mean what I would call Kata ... you may not see the reason or want to do them but there is where you learn to put the techniques together in a controlled manner and if you slip up your no going to lose your head if you miss a block or perform it incorrectly. I do not know the TKD kata but I presume they are sound in what they are teaching and they will be many and will progress in difficulty as the student progresses. Could you do a 5th dan kata ...yes in theory you could be taught the moves but would you understand them or be able to execute them properly ...I doubt it (again not hitting a you) you don't have the basics the underpinning of all.

    As part of your unwritten contract you are there to learn what is being instructed and passed on and you are by being there of your own free will stating you wish that, Your not there to demand that you are only taught what you want. If that is your attitude then no art will suit.

    You are not going to be turned into a total fighting machine at any school per se as the total fighting machine is a different concept and "thing" even if you go to that kind of school your still at the bottom and they are not going to let a beginner "fight" ...one you'd get destroyed and be off to ER and two it very unprofessional to do that anyway.

    Also if you are wanting to go test things ... your school might get a bit unhappy if your gettig known for going and picking fights just to test out things, not to mention that you might get thrown in the jail for fighting !!! I get why you want to know if things work lol but seriously if you go through life and never have to fight then that is a good life.

    Relax keep training and learn patience it will come in time.

    remember asking detailed questions on a forum you are going to get replies from High ranks with years of training behind them and if you give them the assumption you are either disagreeing or are trying to circumvent the art and fast track they may get a bit grumpy lol as it (although the internet) is not giving them their place, just a thought to ponder on
     
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  13. FriedRice

    FriedRice Master Black Belt

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    This video cannot be taken seriously as at 3:05 he's basically saying to not throw HOOKS.
     
  14. now disabled

    now disabled Master Black Belt

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    Can I ask (and you don't have to answer) , what age are you?
     
  15. Rat

    Rat Purple Belt

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    Im torn on it, the explanation given is it puts your wrist/hand at a weaker angle than a straight punch which is bad if you dont have surgery as a option/want to preserve your hands the best.



    To quickly cover the points made for style etc. I need to clarify the priority of reasons why i look to doing martial arts etc.
    1st would be self defence/combat purposes (i classify self defence under combat, ignore my terminology difference) So i want to persue them for skills i can use to defend myself, my property etc and that would also greatly increase my confidence.
    2nd would be to keep myself fit and under that i would put as something to keep myself occupied/for fun.
    3rd would be sport pursuit, to not undermine the first priority though, so closer to in house competitions where they keep it as realistic as possible etc.

    My personal issue with TMA is patterns and it can take a while to get a good skillset (mainly due to the belt system most use) to defend yourself when you might need it the next day. Granted beginners suck, but some styles do more live training so you pick up actual skills you can use quicker. Like has been mentioned and a paraphrase of the teacher at my TKD school "you start learning at black belt, the coloured belts are just the foundation for black". I dislike that as it could take years to get the skills that style thinks you should have for fighting and it could be a bust at the end.

    Another reason i dislike patterns, i find myself learning better if i have someone to practice fight against, just helps me grasp how things work easier etc.

    Thats the quick summery anyway, i will probably reply with quotes to some of the posts later for more details. I am also aware TKD is for self betterment more than fighting, but its the only thing i have to work with so i will vent by ranting about how i dislike the patterns. :p

    hopefully that clarified things. i will also most likely find something which i enjoy doing without making a long list of issues i have with it sooner or later.


    Yeah, i wont answer that one. (because it usually follows a age question) i am aware fighting isnt like the films.
     
  16. now disabled

    now disabled Master Black Belt

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    The reason I asked that was because you are always looking to want to fight ...I just wondered if you were on the receiving end of some beatings etc or threats of that and well when your young it always seems a good thing learn martial arts and then I can beat them

    That route ain't gonna work

    and I'm not having a go in any way at you

    also it not only trad martial arts that have kata modern ones do to and TKD is kinda modern (please dont jump me for saying that my idea of trad might differ from others so I do stand to be corrected )
     
  17. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    If you want to develop uppercut, you should get yourself a striking dummy. It's pretty difficult to train it on heavy bag because the angle.


    [​IMG]
     
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  18. Rat

    Rat Purple Belt

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    They are like £400 or else i would all ready have one. :p It would help with hammer fists and palm strikes as well, i have jarred my hand doing them on a heavy bag.





    I prepare for the worst circumstances, so im a pessimist, dont want to be jumped and not have good fighting skills. I am also just intrested in fighting skills as well, its intresting to me how people used to fight historically.

    Im kind of iffy on it, im willing to look at each styles independently of each other, like i can get behind some kung fu forms (dont know many) but the TKD ones to me just dont seem like they have a combative purpose and i have been told they are meant to mimic fighting, that and i will always do better with a person to practice on/with. I can get behind the use of the 4 directional things to teach you to punch and block correctly to their ideology, but since i have a encylopedia of the patterns some of them just look iffy and not combative, ironic since i did a step back and knife hand to the foot once when i did light sparring. (thats in the 4 directional pattern)
     
  19. now disabled

    now disabled Master Black Belt

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    Rat I am sorry but you seem to be fixated by fighting and applying things real time

    Yes sparring has a roll to play but until you get the basics and I mean the basic basic's trying to fight ain't gonna get you anywhere as if you miss a block etc cause you don't know how to then landing in ER with a busted jaw or worse isn't gonna help you is it ?

    Just an example some of the guys on here that have advised you:- If you tried to fight them then you'd get hurt not cause they wanted to hurt you but because you couldn't get out of the way or block what they threw. If you went to some of the real old style (I mean teaching methods not specific arts) schools you'd get your head in your hands as you do not want to learn the basics lol and yes the old style sensei would hit you if you didn't move lol
     
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  20. now disabled

    now disabled Master Black Belt

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    Your gonna get yourself hurt young man and needlessly so

    I'll let the TKD guys answer you on their kata and the reasons behind them ...I'd suggest you listen to them as with their ranks they will know the why's and where's
     
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