Differences between Judo and Jiu-Jitsu?

[auxprix]

I learned another type of throw. I keep my right hand on her left label and my left hand on her right sleeve. My right foot steps forward between her feet, closer to her right foot. I pivot on my left leg, turning around with my back towards my uki, but instead of putting my weight on both of my feet, I sweep my right leg backwards against her right leg. That proved to be difficult to do, since I see the other Tori/uki both loose balance and fall. I hadn’t fallen down doing this, but I tend to let go a bit too early before she falls because I do not complete the full rotation.[/size][/font]

sounds like an Uchi Matta. It is a very difficult throw, but I would call it among the most important techniques in Judo. Whenever I watch the big-wigs in olympic footage, It seems like they're always using the Uchi Matta. Keep working at it.

One thing you may want to try is as you turn, to shoot your left foot deep into Uke's stance. It will make the throw much easier.

As for the balance thing, you just have you get used to it. If you loose balance, just do one of the forward rolls you do in your warmup to save yourself and uke alot of pain.

I'm glad you're enjoying your time and I hope you stick with Judo. It can be a little tough for some when they first start, but I believe you can't find alot of our technique anywhere else.

 

[Gaston]

Ceicei, I am glad to hear you are still at it, and martial talk has helped you through some of your first hurdles. I hope some of my tips help steer you around a few of the unseen ones.

I realize the males outweigh most of us, but wouldn’t that be a good thing to learn by working with them? It’s best to learn the technique (waza) on a similarly sized opponent until you perfect it, less injuries.

Gaston, you mentioned about flexing the wrist with morote-seoi-nage. I took your advice and that helped. A new problem came up with practicing this technique. When my elbow goes into her armpit and under her arm, I found that my elbow became hyperflexed because of her weight. Perhaps I’m doing something incorrectly because when I went home, I barely could use my elbow as it was so sore. I’ve had hyperextended joints, but it was a new experience to have a joint hyperflexed.



Sorry to hear about your elbow, for future if something feels like it is injuring you check it out right away. A small change in any MA technique can make a huge difference. Hopefully your access the many experienced grapplers here, allows you to learn from our tips/mistakes. Try to focus on this sequence for most forward throws: Drop (lower your body as you are stepping in) - Lock (their body to yours with at least 50% of their weight higher than your hips) - Throw (Allow them to fall over your body, it’s harder to stop a good throw at this point than to just let it happen) The majority of the arm pulling is to lock them to your body not to provide lift. The friction between your back and their front usually provides sufficient lift. At first people try to throw their opponent up and over with their arms. Then they realize their opponent is already standing and all they need is something / someone to fall over. Just squat a little on entry and if they are properly off-balanced they will feel weightless as you allow them to fall over you. Use your joints (hips & knees) as pivots for them to fall over. Try this exercise, (It is actually called “Sode-Tsurikomi-Goshi”) have someone stand behind you with their arms raised. Squat about 3-4inches and have them lean into you. With both hands, elbows strait grab the ends of their long sleeves. Then bend at the hip so they stay put on your back & straiten your knees, their weight should be helping. If you were to try & lift the same person by standing strait and pushing up with just your arms, you had best be VERY strong, and they not taller than you. Now just change your grip for morote-seoi-nage and watch them fly.


I learned another type of throw (Uchi-mata). I keep my right hand on her left label and my left hand on her right sleeve. My right foot steps forward between her feet, closer to her right foot. I pivot on my left leg, turning around with my back towards my uki, but instead of putting my weight on both of my feet; I sweep my right leg backwards against her right leg. That proved to be difficult to do, since I see the other Tori/uki both loose balance and fall. I hadn’t fallen down doing this, but I tend to let go a bit too early before she falls because I do not complete the full rotation.

In Uchi-mata your uki falls in more of a sideways rotation around your leg. It is a different feeling at first. Remember, as before your leg is just something to guide their fall, not to lift them. Follow the above sequence, only this time lock them more to your back/side (hip). The whole reason the leg goes up is to prevent them form stepping around the throw & allow your hip to lift higher.

One final throw (???) I learned was sort of like kosoto-gari, but this one was with my left foot hooking behind her right ankle instead of her knee.

Next, we then learned some chokes/strangleholds.

(With Hadaka jime ensure the thumb side of your wrist is just above their voice box and centered under the chin) I stood behind my uki and put my right arm around her neck, grasping my right hand with my left hand.

The next choke I learned (Okuri eri jime) had my right hand grasping her left collar, almost behind her neck, but keeping my right forearm horizontal. Apparently (Not sure what you mean here?) all the chokes I learned require the choking arm to be horizontal, working more like a bar than a choke with the elbow out front. My left hand grasps her right lapel and pulls down on it. The third choke (???) was similar, except that my left hand grasps her left lapel and pulls down on it. (Help you have lost me)

The fourth choke (Kata ha jime) was more fun… my right hand grasps her left collar high behind her neck, and my left arm loops under her right arm, then goes around to the back of her head (kind of like half of a nelson – one sided).(good description!) The fifth choke Nami-juji-jime or Gyaku-juji-jime palms down or up usually the second from underneath) was having my uki mount me while I’m on my back. I cross my hands and grasp her lapels high up her collar (my right hand on her right lapel and my left hand on her left lapel) and apply an opposing pull. This last one was easy to do as this choke is also known in my primary art, American Kenpo.

Sadly, we ran out of time to do randori. I had been looking forward to randori since it’s the only time I can try out what I learned on a resisting partner.

- Ceicei

Keep it up!! It only gets better.

 

[Ceicei]

One thing you may want to try is as you turn, to shoot your left foot deep into Uke's stance. It will make the throw much easier.

As for the balance thing, you just have you get used to it. If you loose balance, just do one of the forward rolls you do in your warmup to save yourself and uke alot of pain.

Thank you for your tips. I'll be sure to try them and it should get better doing that throw!

- Ceicei

 

[Ceicei]

Ceicei, I am glad to hear you are still at it, and martial talk has helped you through some of your first hurdles. I hope some of my tips help steer you around a few of the unseen ones.

I realize the males outweigh most of us, but wouldn’t that be a good thing to learn by working with them?It’s best to learn the technique (waza) on a similarly sized opponent until you perfect it, less injuries.

Good point. I never considered that there might be a reason for pairing up similarly sized/weighted opponents, especially for beginners.

Sorry to hear about your elbow, for future if something feels like it is injuring you check it out right away. A small change in any MA technique can make a huge difference. Hopefully your access the many experienced grapplers here, allows you to learn from our tips/mistakes.

So are you suggesting that if something hurts, it probably means the technique is done incorrectly and I should stop right there to make an adjustment?

Try to focus on this sequence for most forward throws:

Drop (lower your body as you are stepping in) - Lock (their body to yours with at least 50% of their weight higher than your hips) - Throw (Allow them to fall over your body, it’s harder to stop a good throw at this point than to just let it happen) The majority of the arm pulling is to lock them to your body not to provide lift. The friction between your back and their front usually provides sufficient lift. At first people try to throw their opponent up and over with their arms. Then they realize their opponent is already standing and all they need is something / someone to fall over. Just squat a little on entry and if they are properly off-balanced they will feel weightless as you allow them to fall over you. Use your joints (hips & knees) as pivots for them to fall over. Try this exercise, (It is actually called “Sode-Tsurikomi-Goshi”) have someone stand behind you with their arms raised. Squat about 3-4inches and have them lean into you. With both hands, elbows strait grab the ends of their long sleeves. Then bend at the hip so they stay put on your back & straiten your knees, their weight should be helping. If you were to try & lift the same person by standing strait and pushing up with just your arms, you had best be VERY strong, and they not taller than you. Now just change your grip for morote-seoi-nage and watch them fly.

I'll have to try that. So basically, I'm just the tool to get them to fall... (scribbling mental notes). It's like I had realized at my class last week with a heavier person, I would have to rely more on skill. Unfortunately, my skill isn't all there yet...

In Uchi-mata your uki falls in more of a sideways rotation around your leg. It is a different feeling at first. Remember, as before your leg is just something to guide their fall, not to lift them. Follow the above sequence, only this time lock them more to your back/side (hip). The whole reason the leg goes up is to prevent them form stepping around the throw & allow your hip to lift higher.

How is this different than harai-goshi? They both require a back leg sweep. Hard to tell from the pictures, but isn't Uchi-mata between the legs and Harai-goshi on the outside of the leg?

One final throw

(???) I learned was sort of like kosoto-gari, but this one was with my left foot hooking behind her right ankle instead of her knee.

Maybe it is not a "new" throw. Maybe it is just that, a variation. It sure looked different when I have to hook her ankle instead of behind her knee.

The next choke I learned (Okuri eri jime) had my right hand grasping her left collar, almost behind her neck, but keeping my right forearm horizontal. Apparently (Not sure what you mean here?) all the chokes I learned require the choking arm to be horizontal, working more like a bar than a choke with the elbow out front.My left hand grasps her right lapel and pulls down on it. The third choke (???) was similar, except that my left hand grasps her left lapel and pulls down on it. (Help you have lost me)

What do I mean? I'm thinking (before taking up Judo) that chokes were where the arm wraps around the neck, the elbow facing forward and squeezing (like a one armed hug). With the chokes I learned in Judo, rather than have the elbow forward, the forearm is parallel to my body and just use pressure from the other hand or lapel being shortened.

Maybe the third choke is just another version of Okuri-eri-jime, by pulling down with the left lapel instead of the right lapel.

Keep it up!! It only gets better.

Thanks! I am starting to realize how little I understood Judo, and six classes doesn't do justice to learning what it is like. I probably will go ahead to take the instructor's offer of a free month in August when I return from my two-week vacation.

- Ceicei

 

[auxprix]

Well, your discription at first sounded like an uchimatta, but it could have also been a Hane-goshi or harai goshi. the truth is that throws are often very similar, and can be tough to distinguish between them at times. I was tought to make a little contact with the right leg for the uchi matta, but I know others have been tought to go right inbetween. When you did the right leg sweep, did you do it on the outside or the inside of Uke's stance?

Here's something you be aquainted with. Maybe you've been given this address before, but it bears repeating:

www.judoinfo.com

This is an excellent resource for all Judo players.

 

[Ceicei]

Well, your discription at first sounded like an uchimatta, but it could have also been a Hane-goshi or harai goshi. the truth is that throws are often very similar, and can be tough to distinguish between them at times. I was tought to make a little contact with the right leg for the uchi matta, but I know others have been tought to go right inbetween. When you did the right leg sweep, did you do it on the outside or the inside of Uke's stance?

Well, I'm not sure which we were supposed to do. When we did this throw, some tori went outside, some went inside, and some attempted (like me) to sweep by pushing backwards at the ankle. We were supposed to practice the same technique together, so I'm not sure if it was the difficulty of this that caused so many of us to try in different ways. All of us in the class that day were apparently new to this throw. I think we may have been trying Hane-goshi? Isn't that technique the one with pushing at the ankle like the instructor did?

The instructor told us to sweep back, but she didn't seem to be picky on where/how the sweeping goes. Maybe it is primarily at this time to get us to work on moving our legs back before she will refine on which technique to do? :idunno:

Here's something you be aquainted with. Maybe you've been given this address before, but it bears repeating:

www.judoinfo.com

This is an excellent resource for all Judo players.

Ah, I just discovered the videoclips and animation from that website! THANK YOU! :boing2: (yes, it was worth repeating that URL again as it had been a while since I last looked.)

I wish the videoclips were up much closer, but they do show an overall view of how a technique looks. The animation shows the movements better than some of those videoclips. I had to look at some videoclips more than a few times to study the feet/hands.

- Ceicei

 

[Ceicei]

One final throw (???) I learned was sort of like kosoto-gari, but this one was with my left foot hooking behind her right ankle instead of her knee.

Maybe it is not a "new" throw. Maybe it is just that, a variation. It sure looked different when I have to hook her ankle instead of behind her knee.

Now that I've taken a look at the animation of techniques on www.judoinfo.com, It looks like the technique in question here was De-ashi-harai.

- Ceicei

 

[Gaston]

Ceicei,



So are you suggesting that if something hurts, it probably means the technique is done incorrectly and I should stop right there to make an adjustment?



Judo is meant to employ maximum efficient use of power If the Waza is causing you lasting pain and dysfunction with little end results, I wouldn’t call that efficient, and I would be looking for clarification.

I'll have to try that. So basically, I'm just the tool to get them to fall... (scribbling mental notes). Exactly, the throw portion of the technique is more like allowing them to fall assisted; the initial set up is the difficult portion. It's like I had realized at my class last week with a heavier person, I would have to rely more on skill. Unfortunately, my skill isn't all there yet...



In Uchi-mata your uki falls in more of a sideways rotation around your leg. It is a different feeling at first. Remember, as before your leg is just something to guide their fall, not to lift them. Follow the above sequence, only this time lock them more to your back/side (hip). The whole reason the leg goes up is to prevent them form stepping around the throw & allow your hip to lift higher.



How is this different than harai-goshi? They both require a back leg sweep. Hard to tell from the pictures, but isn't Uchi-mata between the legs and Harai-goshi on the outside of the leg?

You are correct they both HIP techniques require a rear sweep with the leg. Haiai-goshi is out side and Uchi-mata is between the legs. The differences are found in how Uki falls and the relationship between Uki & Toris’ bodies. The leg comes off the floor for two reasons, to prevent Uki from stepping around you, and to allow you to raise your hip higher. Try lifting your left hip with and without your left foot stuck to the floor, big difference. In Harai-goshi which is very similar to O-goshi your opponent ends up falling to the front of your position and falls on more of a forward roll over your hip. Often if you start with O-goshi and your opponent begins to step around, you can switch to Harai-goshi and finish the throw. In Uchi-mata your opponent revolves around their vertical axis which you have bent at a forward angle. So although they do fall over your leg they more or less revolve around your upper leg/hip. I hope that is clearer, if not I will try to add a few more details.

One final throw (???) I learned was sort of like ko soto-gari, but this one was with my left foot hooking behind her right ankle instead of her knee.



Maybe it is not a "new" throw. Maybe it is just that, a variation. It sure looked different when I have to hook her ankle instead of behind her knee.



Sometimes when you first try O or Ko Soto Gari your foot will creep up Ukis’ leg to their knee. Just remember Gari is reaping, try to fit the inner arch of your foot around uki’s heel and you will reap greater rewards (sorry for the pun I couldn’t help it)

What do I mean? I'm thinking (before taking up Judo) that chokes were where the arm wraps around the neck, the elbow facing forward and squeezing (like a one armed hug). With the chokes I learned in Judo, rather than have the elbow forward, the forearm is parallel to my body and just uses pressure from the other hand or lapel being shortened.

Oh, sure for the chokes you have learned I see what you mean. But don’t forget body position and shoulder placement. In some shime-waza that is the case, but there are many choke/strangles out there where different rules apply.

Maybe the third choke is just another version of Okuri-eri-jime, by pulling down with the left lapel instead of the right lapel. (Maybe? But clarify for me please, if this describes your third choke of the night??) I stood behind my uki had my right hand grasping her left collar, almost behind her neck, but keeping my right forearm horizontal my left hand grasps her left lapel and pulls down on it.



Great to see you are going to be keeping at it! Have fun.

Gaston

 

[Gaston]

Well, your discription at first sounded like an uchimatta, but it could have also been a Hane-goshi or harai goshi. the truth is that throws are often very similar, and can be tough to distinguish between them at times. I was tought to make a little contact with the right leg for the uchi matta, but I know others have been tought to go right inbetween. When you did the right leg sweep, did you do it on the outside or the inside of Uke's stance?

Here's something you be aquainted with. Maybe you've been given this address before, but it bears repeating:

www.judoinfo.com

This is an excellent resource for all Judo players.

As long as we remember these three are all Goshi waza/hip techniques, and apply that part of the waza corectly, the leg placement will come with each situation.
Uchimatta (whole leg in),
Harai goshi (whole leg out)
Hane-goshi (foot in-knee out "and you shake it all about lol sorry")

Gaston

 

[Ceicei]

Maybe the third choke is just another version of Okuri-eri-jime, by pulling down with the left lapel instead of the right lapel.(Maybe? But clarify for me please, if this describes your third choke of the night??) I stood behind my uki had my right hand grasping her left collar, almost behind her neck, but keeping my right forearm horizontal my left hand grasps her left lapel and pulls down on it.

Ah, yes. Basically, I grasp the left collar with my right hand up by her left ear, my left hand grasps the left lapel slightly under the right hand. I pull down with my left hand on the lapel. My right hand loosens it a bit to allow the collar to slip through, but my right hand tightens again as soon as I feel the gi tightening around her neck. Not sure what this one is called since I do not see it in the book described this way.

The Okuri-eri-jime works better though with my left hand pulling down on the right lapel though since I don't need to let go with my right hand.

- Ceicei

 

[Gaston]

this is a tryal to get some pictures to load
Gaston

 

[Gaston]

That didn't work?

 

[Gaston]

Anybody know how to insert picks into the text here?

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

sliding collar choke?

 

[Gaston]

sliding collar choke?

Yes Okuri-eri-jime translates to sliding collar/lapel choke/lock.
Usually you use the left hand to take up the slack in the left lapel by pulling the lapel out and down from under the left armpit. The right hand then slides in under the jaw line for a tight thumb in slack free grip. Then the left hand still under the left armpit moves across to grip the right lapel thumb up. A combined effort of; straightening the right wrist, drawing the right elbow back, pulling down the ukis’ right lapel, while pressing the uki’s body down into a “C” shape and pressing your right shoulder into the back of uki’s head. This usually finishes the technique. Oh, to be able to show the technique in person. It requires so fewer words ahhhh.

Gaston

 

[Gaston]

I had a non-martial arts friend ask me this question: "What are the differences between Judo and Jiu-Jitsu?" Since I don't study Judo or Jiu-Jitsu (I study American Kenpo), I don't have good answers. Your assistance in replies would be appreciated.

Thank you,

- Ceicei

:rules:If I can get some tech. help I will add pictures of what I am talking about


I have just finished reading;idunno:picture of book) my study of Judo by G. Koizumi 7th dan at the time. The author was born on July 8, 1885, the book was copyrighted in 1960.
I came across some interesting facts. idunno:sample page of book listing Kansetsu waza/locking techniques for the entire body)

The principles described in this book can be found in most Judo, JJ or even BJJ syllabuses around the world, interesting.

These two moves in particular looks very similar, you be the judge. idunno:4 pictures of two very similar moves old and "new") The "newer" moves are out of BJJ Black Belt techniques copyright 2003 author Jean Jacques Machado. This book shows just how close Judo, JJ, & BJJ were all related at the start.

Gaston

 

[Bod]

Gaston,

Is the book still in print? Where did you get hold of it?

I'm rather interested in Mr. Koizumi, given that he is my teacher's teacher, and my teacher is married to his daughter (Hannah).

My teacher is always trying to teach Mr. Koizumi's style of judo, and Mr. Tani's (another of the men who brought judo to Britain).

I was not aware of the book, and have only read a few articles by Mr. Koizumi on the web, and seen one of his stick drawings in our club.

Any information would be wonderful.

Thanks

 

[Ceicei]

Gaston has been having difficulty uploading his pictures to this thread, so I offered to do them for him. Two of the pictures (of the book) were too big, so I need to resize them first. Here are the rest of his pictures:

 

[Ceicei]

Here are the resized pictures of the book Gaston mentioned.

 

[Gaston]

Thanks to ceicei for the help with the pictures. Here are the descriptions of the waza.

The old arm lock is listed as Kuzure-heza-gatame. The new one is listed as Omo Plata. The only difference is in the first you twist the wrist to prevent a forward roll. In the second you lock the legs on one another. These two differences are minor given the 60+ years of progress. In the Judo version you lock your hands together to provide a secure grip. In the BJJ version you grasp the lapels with opposing grips. Interesting that the Judo version doesn’t require the use of a gi and the BJJ version does:idunno:. The sample page listing the types of Kansetsu-Waza covers the entire body not just elbow. Many of the other waza are described along with some photos.


Gaston