Differences between Judo and Jiu-Jitsu?

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

Thanks to ceicei for the help with the pictures. Here are the descriptions of the waza.

The old arm lock is listed as Kuzure-heza-gatame. The new one is listed as Omo Plata. The only difference is in the first you twist the wrist to prevent a forward roll. In the second you lock the legs on one another. These two differences are minor given the 60+ years of progress. In the Judo version you lock your hands together to provide a secure grip. In the BJJ version you grasp the lapels with opposing grips. Interesting that the Judo version doesn’t require the use of a gi and the BJJ version does:idunno:. The sample page listing the types of Kansetsu-Waza covers the entire body not just elbow. Many of the other waza are described along with some photos.


Gaston

Good observations, but life is not written in pictures alone. BJJ also teaches gi-less versions of these chokes, holds, and controls. As someone who went into BJJ with a history in Judo, it occurred to me that there was nothing new under the sun: Whether calling the naked choke hadaka jime or mata leon, the basic math of the strangle is the same. I have a bunch of old Judo books I bought in used book stores in the 70's (yep, they were old then) written in the 40's and 50's, and all of the "hidden moves" from the brazilians...that I waited for with baited breath to be shown...were in those books. And in some of my previous Judo lessons. The key difference that stands out to me (and I think it's an important one, since I've gone back to randori with Judo seniors after minimal BJJ, and spanked guys who previously spanked me) are the set-ups and transitions. The actual end holds are much the same (and sometimes cleaner in Judo), but the "how to get there from here" seems more pragmatic to me in BJJ. (i.e., Judo gata taught me how to perform a straddle position with crossed lapel choke, but not how to get or maintian the straddle position against resistance. BJJ teaches the mount with collar choke, and one works for years refining gaining and keeping the mount, as well as applying a myriad of holds against an opponent who mistakenly attempts to dismount you. Judo guys work a little on this, but don't spend as much time here, because they have the rest of the Kodokan cirriculum to learn, as well).

Considering this is all they (the Brazilians) really do, it shouldn't come as any great surprise that, by sheer trial and error over thousands of people doing just grappling for thousands of hours, folks from this crib are bound to brainstorm different transitions that serve their purposes better than traditionally imparted versions.

When I tie up with my seniors in Judo, I don't expect to be able to put them on the floor, and if the purpose of the match is just to the throw, I count on losing (I try anyways, but I'm not stupid). If the randori is till someone taps in submission, I've learned I can hang on, take them down with me, and outclass them on the ground with subtley better transitions to the familiar old holds. I can free from their kesa-gatame much more easily than they from mine; jockey for position to place them in sankaku-jime without them knowing where I'm going with my fidgets till its too late, and can reverse the fortunes of a supposedly inferior position with greater facility (choke a guy out from under his four-corner hold without him having seen it coming). Still, I am not a better judoka...I only have the sneakier transitions generated in the Brazilian microcosm of randori trial and error, evolved in a fish tank based on Vale Tudo challenge matches, rather then Olympic competition. Different focus on similar material leads to different outcome.

Some people get to the car crash in a mercedes, some in a BMW...the end wreckage pretty much looks the same, but how one got there is a bit different.

My own thoughts.

Dave

 

[Gaston]

I agree with every thing you mentioned, except for a few minor concerns. Is it poor form to quote your self on a common thought well, I hope not?



Judo forum (likes and dislikes about Judo): posted 07-01-2004"What I enjoy the most about judo is the dynamics of pitting your self mentally & physically against another person, for mutual advancement. For Judo to thrive we must remember its co-operative nature during training. I also feel the limitation of various techniques has created a dormant state that was never meant to exist. A few changes that I feel would aid Judo are as follows: incorporating a round fighting area, promoting transition techniques, ensuring refs actually still train/attend classes, & revising the rules to allow for more dynamic ground work."



Gaston

End quote



I also have a question for Kembudo-Kai Kempoka. Doesn't BJJs' variety of available submissions sometimes hamper the possibility for developing certain transitions? For example if you are in danger of (?????) while performing a transition “X” wouldn’t you avoid transition “X”? While although Judo is limited to elbow locks, chokes & strangles during Randori and Shiai. This same limitation may allow a Judoka to move through that same/or greater variety of transitions unmolested by those particular concerns. Or do you feel that the presence of these dangers gave BJJ extra focus time to development the transitions that are available to them?



Comments??



Gaston

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

I agree with every thing you mentioned, except for a few minor concerns. Is it poor form to quote your self on a common thought well, I hope not?



Judo forum (likes and dislikes about Judo): posted 07-01-2004"What I enjoy the most about judo is the dynamics of pitting your self mentally & physically against another person, for mutual advancement. For Judo to thrive we must remember its co-operative nature during training. I also feel the limitation of various techniques has created a dormant state that was never meant to exist. A few changes that I feel would aid Judo are as follows: incorporating a round fighting area, promoting transition techniques, ensuring refs actually still train/attend classes, & revising the rules to allow for more dynamic ground work."



Gaston

End quote



I also have a question for Kembudo-Kai Kempoka. Doesn't BJJs' variety of available submissions sometimes hamper the possibility for developing certain transitions? For example if you are in danger of (?????) while performing a transition “X” wouldn’t you avoid transition “X”? While although Judo is limited to elbow locks, chokes & strangles during Randori and Shiai. This same limitation may allow a Judoka to move through that same/or greater variety of transitions unmolested by those particular concerns. Or do you feel that the presence of these dangers gave BJJ extra focus time to development the transitions that are available to them?



Comments??



Gaston

Love the Judo quote. Unfortunately, am prone to bad form...but I'll try harder.

Danger in transition? Keeps the creative juices flowing. In really good chess, there is no safe move without consequences...even if they are not immediately identifiable, but three or five moves down the line. In ground-fighting, there are no safe transitions. I've seen many different variation of an escape/transition, breaking out of the guard, and slithering to a side-mount position. Each has strengths and weaknesses. Interestingly, only a few people know all the versions, their relative strengths and weaknesses, and how to exploit them. Part of what makes it fun is learning to ID these on the fly.

BJJ guys wrassled alot...and had to figure out a lot of counters, counters to counters, and so on. There is no safe transition, but with luck, risk is minimized by addressing the topic with a player not as educated as yourself. In a challenging roll, you never get to finish a transition...you start it, he recognizes it, blocks it, and starts to switch things up on you; you recognize the block, ID targets presented by virtue of position, and abandon the original transition to go after them. Often these start and end with little more then a twitch of the hips to start moving in the direction you need to go...he's felt it before, knows where you're planning on going with it, and changes the pressure at the upper torso area in prep for the counter, which you feel so you change which way an ankle has weight distributed so you can post to block him, and so on. Evenly matched guys in randori sessions often look like they are just laying on each other twitching. That's one of the reasons for the MMA rules about breaking guys up and starting them over...lotsa technical exchange going on at subtle levels, but notta lotta visual excitement to watch.

I think I responded to your question, but it's kinda late. Let me know if I missed.

D.

 

[Gaston]

I as well feel the ref needs to be well versed in ground tactics i.e. defensive VS offensive progress, to recognize the subtleties of ground work. Yes sometimes I can over explain things, simply put my question is.

Doesn't BJJs' variety of submissions hamper the possibility for developing certain transitions?
For example if you are in danger of (?????) while performing a transition “X” wouldn’t you avoid transition “X”?
Judos' "limited"submissions allow a Judoka to move through that same/or greater variety of transitions unmolested. Or do you feel this gave BJJers extra focus time to development the transitions that are available to them? Hope this clears things up.



Gaston

 

[Cobra]

Can people Jiu-Jitsu compete in Judo competitions? Since Judo is the version of Jiu-Jitsu except taking out all the dangerous techniques. Don't you learn most judo moves in Jiu-Jitsu?

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

Can people Jiu-Jitsu compete in Judo competitions? Since Judo is the version of Jiu-Jitsu except taking out all the dangerous techniques. Don't you learn most judo moves in Jiu-Jitsu?

You would have to specify which type of jiu jitsu prior to this question being answerable. Judo, in my own pea little brain, has one of the best broad-based lexicons of applied taijutsu. Most jujutsu schools have areas of specialty (i.e., focus on wrists; focus on grappling; etc.). One of Judo's strengths is that it introduces the practitioner to a bit-o-everything. Unfortunately, that is also probably one of it's 2-3 major weaknesses, as well. Students become a Jack-of-all-trades/Master of none. Still, I think, due to the live training, one is better off in most Judo schools, than most jujutsu schools.

Prescription: Take 5-8 years of Judo to survey the contents, then split off to train in a specialty splinter system that appeals to you. Like dropping people on the floor in compromising, painful positions? Shooto. Like choking them till they turn funny colors? BJJ. Wanna break a lotta arms, ankles, or knees? Old Sambo (pre-MMA/competition modifications).

They all do a little of all of it, because they all have pretty much the same parent arts; each generally picks a focus at which to excel. I remember when Sambo guys first came out of the woodworks to train with a lot of the BJJ-ers. We kept getting caught in the funky knee and ankle locks we had never seen before. Years passed, and now those same locks are taught in BJJ cirricula. Same with Shoot...cool take downs and transitions that are now used by all. Few, however, have the global sense of non-specialty positioning one can expect from Judo training.

Judo breakfalling and rolling skills have saved my life/skin on multiple occasions. Things may have changed (I've been out for awhile), but last time I was involved, the vast majority of BJJ schools never taught breakfalls...something everybody should know.

D.

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

Gaston:

Maybe I just need a vacation. Whatever two neurons need to touch for me to be clear on your inquiry just ain't reachin each other. Sorry for being dense: I'll try reading it again when it isn't at the end of a long, stress-laden day.

D.

 

[Gaston]

No problem, I'll try rewording my responses and adding some of your own words.



The actual end holds are much the same (and sometimes cleaner in Judo), but the "how to get there from here" seems more pragmatic to me in BJJ. (i.e., Judo gata taught me how to perform a straddle position with crossed lapel choke, but not how to get or maintain the straddle position against resistance. BJJ teaches the mount with collar choke, and one works for years refining gaining and keeping the mount, as well as applying a myriad of holds against an opponent who mistakenly attempts to dismount you. Judo guys work a little on this, but don't spend as much time here. Considering this is all they (the Brazilians) really do, it shouldn't come as any great surprise that, by sheer trial and error over thousands of people doing just grappling for thousands of hours, folks from this crib are bound to brainstorm different transitions that "serve their purposes" better than traditionally imparted versions (with self imposed training limitations).

If the randori is till someone taps in submission, I've learned I can hang on, take them down with me, and outclass them on the ground with subtly better transitions to the familiar old holds. I can free from their Kesa-gatame much more easily than they from mine; jockey for position to place them in sankaku-jime without them knowing where I'm going with my fidgets till its too late, and can reverse the fortunes of a supposedly inferior position with greater facility (choke a guy out from under his four-corner hold without him having seen it coming). Still, I am not a better judoka...I only have the sneakier transitions generated in the Brazilian microcosm of randori trial and error, evolved in a fish tank based on Vale Tudo challenge matches, (Where they are allowed the full range of submissions during training.) rather then Olympic competition(with their self imposed limitation of techniques). Different focus on similar material leads to different outcome.



In your above points in red you indicate that BJJs' transitions are superior to Judos, right? Also BJJ is "allowed" to use a greater range of submissions, correct?



So following that thought doesn't BJJs' variety of submissions have to hamper the possibility for developing certain transitions, due to its greater range of submissions? Some positions/transitions are guaranteed to expose you to a submission.

If while transitioning from A to B you find that you are always being submitted with a (?????), the logical decision would be to find a different route from A to B.



If I have made sense this time this will to.



Judos' "limited submissions" would have allowed a Judoka to move through that same route unmolested, correct? Therefore, Judos "limited submissions" must allow for greater number of "safe" routes/transitions between A & B.



Perhaps, in your earlier quote did you mean to say: "Due to the greater variety of potential submissions, BJJers have had to develop the transitions between A & B that are available to them” safe" to a greater degree?"



By "safe" I'm sure you understand I mean those routes that do not guaranteed to get you submitted. Hope this clears things up.



Gaston

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

Yep. Cleared up, and I think I addressed it in the "game of chess" post.

Yes, the wider range of approaches to submissions places BJJ-ers at higher levels of risk, while in positions that more traditional Judo players (YMCA, Olympic) would consider safe zones. The wrassler faces a choice: Don't move, or know enough counters to their counters (i.e., if he tries to put me in ???? while on my way to X, I'll switch midstream and Y on him).

Keep in mind: I personally believe that technology developes in response to the pressures placed on its innovators. Were the Kodokan and its affiliates concerned more with grappling and challenge matches, I'm quite confident the developments would have been much the same. Isn't there someting in history about 2 guys coming up with the theory of evolution at the same time, but from different starting points? With necessity as the mother of invention, an idea whose time has come, will in fact, come.

D.