"Common Good"? Hogwash.

[arnisador]

So by your standard money must be taken out of my pocket to give other people so they can spend it?

If you're over 18, you're a voluntary member of the United States of America. Your money isn't being taken, you've chosen to join a group where those are the dues. You can agitate to get the rules of your organization changed, but don't complain as though you're being held here against your will.

Step 1
Public Referendum

Oh yeah, that's worked so well for California.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

What are the realistic chances that any of your otherwise excellent suggestions will happen?

I tend to believe the chances are near-zero for any of those you listed. Not because they're not a good idea, mind you. Given that, I propose to deal with what is as opposed to what should be.

Do I think they would work?

If American's had the same guts their fathers did, in the same quantity, sure. Not the brainwashed soft bastards we have now who think they are entitled.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Everything you buy would be from a monopoly if the private sector ruled unfettered. That's expensive, but it makes great business sense.

There'd be no 40-hour work week, child labor laws, anti-discrimination laws, etc., unless implemented state-by-state--it's unclear to me how much you'd allow the states to legislate.

Natural utilities like water, electricity, etc., would be much more expensive--and it would have been worse early on, when these were new technologies.

Personally, I like having the Dept. of Agriculture inspect meat rather than having private industry set its own tolerances based on how much each death will cost them in a lawsuit vs. the cost of making the product safe (and similarly for cars, etc.).

Do you really mean to have fire departments, ambulance services, restaurant health inspectors, medical licensure, etc., all be privatized ("Everything else would do better if run by the private sector")?

You do realize that most of this "government intervention" screws things up right?

Minimum wage is for entry level workers, not people looking to raise families. Any employer paying crap has problems getting and keeping competent employees. That's why when min wage in NY was $4.25, the Burger King at the one mall hired at $8 an hour. Had nothing to do with minimum wage.

Run the country like a successful business does, watch government cut 80% or more.



Give everyone over 30 every last cent they paid into SSI back, in one lump sum, with a fair amount of interest, then shut down SSI totally.

You are responsible for saving, budgeting and investing. If you can't, if you blow it in stupidity, well, then starve or freeze, like any other stupid animal.


One other point.
If you smoke, drink, party, eat out, do drugs, you are not broke!
You just choose to spend your money on crap and not what you need.


Oh, the Dept of Agro. Fine job they do. How much meat has been recalled the last few years? Fine job that. Oh, understaffed? Then staff them, and stop paying Senator LardAss's wine requirement.

 

[Omar B]

You are not answering my question. I am too old to save enough to retire on now, and I could become disabled and unable to work. I would like to hear an answer and not a platitude. What is your solution for people like me?

I don't have an answer for you. My retirement is well in hand, as yours should be in your hands. My advice, hope social security is enough to take care of you, start investing wisely, invent something or find some other way to get rich while you can still work. What you have done or failed to do is not my concern at all.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

If you're over 18, you're a voluntary member of the United States of America. Your money isn't being taken, you've chosen to join a group where those are the dues. You can agitate to get the rules of your organization changed, but don't complain as though you're being held here against your will.



Oh yeah, that's worked so well for California.

California issues should be decided by Californian's. Not folks in Utah, Florida or Canada. That whole "States Rights" stuff in that tattered document thing.

You may be fine with having 30% of your earnings taken and divided out by fat bureaucrats who will be happy to tear down your house and give you a pittance should they feel the need to do so. I take issue with it and call it all what it is. Theft.

The owners of property have the full right to control, use, dispose of, or in any manner enjoy, their property without interference, until and unless the exercise of their control infringes the valid rights of others. We oppose all controls on wages, prices, rents, profits, production, and interest rates. We advocate the repeal of all laws banning or restricting the advertising of prices, products, or services. We oppose all violations of the right to private property, liberty of contract, and freedom of trade. The right to trade includes the right not to trade — for any reasons whatsoever. Where property, including land, has been taken from its rightful owners by the government or private action in violation of individual rights, we favor restitution to the rightful owners.

100% agreement.

 

[Omar B]

If you're over 18, you're a voluntary member of the United States of America. Your money isn't being taken, you've chosen to join a group where those are the dues. You can agitate to get the rules of your organization changed, but don't complain as though you're being held here against your will.

You are correct, but SS is somethings added by the government a long while after the founding fathers and it is pretty much a failed experiment. It's another exampe of the government trying to do something responsible but in the end people just cared less about their futures because big brother would take care of it.

It's a lovley theory, but I don't think anyone should depend on SS providing the lions share (or in a few years any) of their retirement fund.

 

[arnisador]

You do realize that most of this "government intervention" screws things up right?

Nope.

Minimum wage

I didn't mention that. I mentioned child labor laws. Child labor makes excellent business sense--they work very cheaply and don't demand much else, and in some cases parents will send them to work so the parents don't have to.

Give everyone over 30 every last cent they paid into SSI back

I didn't mention SSI. I mentioned the govt.'s power to regulate monopolies.

Oh, the Dept of Agro. Fine job they do. How much meat has been recalled the last few years?

How much would have been recalled if the industry self-policed?

 

[arnisador]

California issues should be decided by Californian's.

They are. How's it working for them? That seems relevant, since you're proposing it on a national level.

 

[Omar B]

Nope.
I didn't mention that. I mentioned child labor laws. Child labor makes excellent business sense--they work very cheaply and don't demand much else, and in some cases parents will send them to work so the parents don't have to.
I didn't mention SSI. I mentioned the govt.'s power to regulate monopolies.
How much would have been recalled if the industry self-policed?

You make a great point man. My sister and I were working really early. But then most of our childhood was not spent in the US having Indian and Jamaican parentage. I've had every job from office boy, shelf stocking in supermarkets, cleaning in a butcher shop, bag room attendant all before I was legal age to work here.

I guess the child labor laws protect some, but I think the age can be brought down to lets say 14.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

What you have done or failed to do is not my concern at all.

And this where we disagree. Whilst I am fully in agreement that you should not have any personal concern for my welfare, if there are enough people in my situation, it will affect our society, and it will affect our economy. Not in a good way. This is why I say that it is not by way of morals that I have concern for those on the fringes of our society, but by way of my own self-interest. If ignoring them can damage our society, then it damages me.

Imagine you have a neighbor whose fence borders yours, and it is falling down. It looks so bad that it's damaging your property values. He has no money to fix it. You finally offer to assist him financially, and the fence is repaired. You had no obligation to do so, and by rights, it was strictly his problem. But by helping him, you kept his poor choices from harming you. Perhaps a wise decision?

 

[Omar B]

You sink or swim by your own doing. People who don't know how to save or invest won't affect the economy one way or another, money will be made and spent, goods and services will be exchanged as always but everyone learns a lesson, make hay while the sun shines.

I see where you are coming from Bill. But it's a position I cannot take. Money's value comes from those who produce and those who trade. Handing out free money to those who didn't earn it but as a consolation prize actually does more to devalue money than just about anything out there, and that includes printing more money.

It's a nice sentiment, but it leads to economic disaster. As to your friend who lives next door, fix the part of the fence that adjoins your property, and have the neighborhood association deal with him.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

You sink or swim by your own doing. People who don't know how to save or invest won't affect the economy one way or another, money will be made and spent, goods and services will be exchanged as always but everyone learns a lesson, make hay while the sun shines.

Enough people will. That much is already clear - look how the huge number of foreclosures have driven down house prices. Enough of anything causes change.

I see where you are coming from Bill. But it's a position I cannot take. Money's value comes from those who produce and those who trade. Handing out free money to those who didn't earn it but as a consolation prize actually does more to devalue money than just about anything out there, and that includes printing more money.

All true on that side of the equation, but there is also protecting the value of your money to consider.

It's a nice sentiment, but it leads to economic disaster. As to your friend who lives next door, fix the part of the fence that adjoins your property, and have the neighborhood association deal with him.

You are aware that a) not everyone lives in covenant property (in fact, most don't) and b) that doesn't help the value of your real estate stay up, right?

The problem as I see it is that much of the "I've got mine, you get yours" sentiment is predicated upon not accepting the fact that bad things that happen to others can cause you problems too.

Also, there is a lot of 'well you should have planned better' sentiment - that's as may be, but what's done is done, eh? You don't want to come right out and say that if I haven't enough money to retire, and I have no other means of support, then I should (and will) starve to death. Now, I haven't pushed you too hard on this, but if one is going to pursue your line of 'only me' reasoning, one has to go to this logical conclusion.

And again, I don't hold that you owe me a debt, or that you have a moral obligation to me (or those like me, etc). I point out that if there are a million people like me, sick, broke, and facing starvation, we'll tear your house down and eat you and your family if we have to. J/K, but what I mean is that yes, enough people like me bloody will affect the economy and the economy is a boat we all float in. You really don't want me busting holes in the bottom of my end of the boat - your side sinks too.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

I didn't mention that. I mentioned child labor laws. Child labor makes excellent business sense--they work very cheaply and don't demand much else, and in some cases parents will send them to work so the parents don't have to.

Repeal them. Along with min wage, minority hiring quotas, etc.

I didn't mention SSI. I mentioned the govt.'s power to regulate monopolies.

They shouldn't. Not their job.

How much would have been recalled if the industry self-policed?

Don't know. Probably the same amount of spit-filled burgers that are caught on their way to your table after you complained about not enough mayo.

They are. How's it working for them? That seems relevant, since you're proposing it on a national level.

I disagree with some of their decisions. If I were inclined to move there, I'd work for change there. As Im not, well..... NMP.

 

[Omar B]

Enough people will. That much is already clear - look how the huge number of foreclosures have driven down house prices. Enough of anything causes change.
All true on that side of the equation, but there is also protecting the value of your money to consider.
You are aware that a) not everyone lives in covenant property (in fact, most don't) and b) that doesn't help the value of your real estate stay up, right?
The problem as I see it is that much of the "I've got mine, you get yours" sentiment is predicated upon not accepting the fact that bad things that happen to others can cause you problems too.
Also, there is a lot of 'well you should have planned better' sentiment - that's as may be, but what's done is done, eh? You don't want to come right out and say that if I haven't enough money to retire, and I have no other means of support, then I should (and will) starve to death. Now, I haven't pushed you too hard on this, but if one is going to pursue your line of 'only me' reasoning, one has to go to this logical conclusion.
And again, I don't hold that you owe me a debt, or that you have a moral obligation to me (or those like me, etc). I point out that if there are a million people like me, sick, broke, and facing starvation, we'll tear your house down and eat you and your family if we have to. J/K, but what I mean is that yes, enough people like me bloody will affect the economy and the economy is a boat we all float in. You really don't want me busting holes in the bottom of my end of the boat - your side sinks too.

Bill, as I pointed out, money's value is hurt by handing it out to those who didnt earn it. Rates of exchange, values and such are set by people who produce and trade in large sums. Handing out money is one of the two worst things you can do to money's value. You liken the economy to a sinking boat which is a bit naive. Criminals of all stripes, those who would take, seize or by some other means co-opt what they did not earn are not the ones who decide the value of money. Short term it'll be a *****, but the more that's stolen or handed out, the less money will value and the higher prices will be, the stealing will never keep up and grow organically with the market. The market is self correcting and as the prices go up those who decide the prices will adjust and you've just priced yourself out of everything ... then it'll return to normal once all the funny money is done away with.

You also say that you and those like you will break down my doors and steal from me. So your response to not taking responsibility for yourself is to enslave me now and take it out of my wages or break into my house and take it later. Gotta love that morality. Basically it's a threat at gunpoint, "give me your money or else." Common good, brother love, more like theft with a smile.

Here are a couple of my favorites:
Henry Hazlit - Economics In One Lesson http://www.amazon.com/Economics-One-Lesson-Shortest-Understand/dp/0517548232/ref=pd_sim_b_11
Isabel Paterson - The God Machine http://www.amazon.com/God-Machine-Isabel-Paterson/dp/1560006668
Milton Friedman - A Monetary history Of The United States http://www.amazon.com/Monetary-History-United-States-1867-1960/dp/0691003548/ref=pd_sim_b_17
Ludwig Von Mises - Human Action http://www.amazon.com/Human-Action-...=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1255747130&sr=8-3

Now I'm gonna go watch some TV with the wife, I hope you and your friends don't break in.

 

[elder999]

"People who spend their existence worrying
solely about the needs of others and not themselves are not nobles,
benevolent, and spiritual. They are crazy. "- Randy Gage
The Purpose That Drives Your Life
Source: www.successmethods.org


Fire away.

"Surplus wealth is a sacred trust which its possessor is bound to administer in his lifetime for the good of the community." - Andrew Carnegie

"This country cannot afford to be materially rich and spiritually poor." - John F. Kennedy

"Probably the greatest harm done by vast wealth is the harm that we of moderate means do ourselves when we let the vices of envy and hatred enter deep into our own natures.But there is another harm; and it is evident that we should try to do away with that. The great corporations which we have grown to speak of rather loosely as trusts are the creatures of the State, and the State not only has the right to control them, but it is duty bound to control them wherever the need of such control is shown. Theodore Roosevelt,Speech at Providence, Rhode Island (1902-08-23), Presidential Addresses and State Papers (1910), p. 103

We wish to control big business so as to secure among other things good wages for the wage-workers and reasonable prices for the consumers. Wherever in any business the prosperity of the businessman is obtained by lowering the wages of his workmen and charging an excessive price to the consumers we wish to interfere and stop such practices. We will not submit to that kind of prosperity any more than we will submit to prosperity obtained by swindling investors or getting unfair advantages over business rivals. Theodore Roosevelt,Speech at Progressive Party Convention, Chicago (1912-06-17)

Political parties exist to secure responsible government and to execute the will of the people. From these great tasks both of the old parties have turned aside. Instead of instruments to promote the general welfare they have become the tools of corrupt interests, which use them impartially to serve their selfish purposes. Behind the ostensible government sits enthroned an invisible government owing no allegiance and acknowledging no responsibility to the people. To destroy this invisible government, to dissolve the unholy alliance between corrupt business and corrupt politics, is the first task of the statesmanship of the day. Theodore Roosevelt,The Progressive Covenant With The People" speech (August, 1912)

A heavy progressive tax upon a very large fortune is in no way such a tax upon thrift or industry as a like would be on a small fortune. No advantage comes either to the country as a whole or to the individuals inheriting the money by permitting the transmission in their entirety of the enormous fortunes which would be affected by such a tax; and as an incident to its function of revenue raising, such a tax would help to preserve a measurable equality of opportunity for the people of the generations growing to manhood. We have not the slightest sympathy with that socialistic idea which would try to put laziness, thriftlessness and inefficiency on a par with industry, thrift and efficiency; which would strive to break up not merely private property, but what is far more important, the home, the chief prop upon which our whole civilization stands. Such a theory, if ever adopted, would mean the ruin of the entire country--a ruin which would bear heaviest upon the weakest, upon those least able to shift for themselves. But proposals for legislation such as this herein advocated are directly opposed to this class of socialistic theories. Our aim is to recognize what Lincoln pointed out: The fact that there are some respects in which men are obviously not equal; but also to insist that there should be an equality of self-respect and of mutual respect, an equality of rights before the law, and at least an approximate equality in the conditions under which each man obtains the chance to show the stuff that is in him when compared to his fellows." Theodore Roosevelt, 1907

"We cannot afford to reduce taxes, reduce income,until we have in sight a program of expenditure that shows that the factors of income and outgo will be balanced." Dwight D. Eisenhower, on taxing "the rich."


"Should any political party attempt to abolish social security, unemployment insurance, and eliminate labor laws and farm programs, you would not hear of that party again in our political history. There is a tiny splinter group, of course, that believes you can do these things. Among them are H. L. Hunt (you possibly know his background), a few other Texas oil millionaires, and an occasional politician or business man from other areas. Their number is negligible and they are stupid." Dwight D. Eisenhower, on the obvious

In 1960 Eisenhower signed into law the Kerr-Mills Bill, generally considered to be the forerunner of Medicare. For the first time, Kerr-Mills provided for government payment of medical bills of 70% of citizens aged 65 and older.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

You also say that you and those like you will break down my doors and steal from me. So your response to not taking responsibility for yourself is to enslave me now and take it out of my wages or break into my house and take it later. Gotta love that morality. Basically it's a threat at gunpoint, "give me your money or else." Common good, brother love, more like theft with a smile.

The response of hungry people is to do what they have to do to feed themselves. Is that a problem for you?

You said it yourself, morality does not matter. Not my problem, man. So we're going to get hungry and break into your house. And that's my problem how? That sounds like you'll have the problem here, not me.

I said at the outset that this wasn't an issue of morality for me. It was one of practicality. You can say 'not my problem, man' when it doesn't affect you - hopefully you will understand that when it does affect you, it isn't their problem, either.

 

[Omar B]

I didn't say morality doesn't matter Bill, putting words in my mouth. Go ahead, steal now, steal later, it's still stealing, glad to see you advocating it. Unless hard work and earning is a crime rather than theft now.

No I don't care what someone else does with his or her life as long as it does not hurt me physically or financially. But if they do there are laws about that.

A guess the morality of a religious man goes out the window when convenient. But then the "common good" was always used as an excuse to take the unearned ... Russian Revolution anyone?

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Roosevelt was a nut case who did more to ignore the Constitution than Bush I-Obama combined. Interesting though that he would be quoted as much of what was posted simply justifies my position. "Political parties exist to secure responsible government and to execute the will of the people. From these great tasks both of the old parties have turned aside. Instead of instruments to promote the general welfare they have become the tools of corrupt interests, which use them impartially to serve their selfish purposes" No ****. Sounds like what's been said about our current "Big 2"


Explain to me where it's right to take what someone legally earns and divy it up amongst those who didn't earn it. You can't, not without somehow trying to justify theft in fancy words and "make me feel good" bull.

Simple idea:
I work hard, I earn it, it's mine, to do with as -I-, -I-, -I- please, not what some illiterate self serving non-representing representative in Washington decides to do with.
You will never convince me otherwise.

 

[arnisador]

Repeal them. Along with min wage, minority hiring quotas, etc.

Repeal child labor laws? And allow individual states to regulate it, or just figure that if a five year old signs a bad contract, it's his own fault fornot reading it more carefully?

They shouldn't. Not their job.

Regulating interstate commerce is their job, and monopolies surely fall under that. I suspect you'll find yourself alone among the nation's great economic thinkers in favoring the allowance of monopolies and price-fixing. They really screw up the whole supply and demand thing. Under your system, wouldn't the makers of necessities band together to set price floors to guarantee profits? What would be the counter-incentive?

I disagree with some of their decisions. If I were inclined to move there, I'd work for change there. As Im not, well..... NMP.

If national referenda, as you call for, came about, it would indeed be your problem.

 

[Ken Morgan]

Just watching this discussion, but I'm enjoying it a great deal. Thanks boys and girls.