"combat" hkd... sry

[Miles]

No before it was children's physical education ala Shotokan. Now it is a sport.

Sorry to get off topic, but I don't think that when GM Park, Hae Man (TKD) was working at the Blue House along with GM Ji, Han Jae (HKD), the former was teaching the President's children physical education. They both were working with the Security Forces.

 

[Kumbajah]

The "Father" of TKD , Gen. Choi was a second Dan Shotokan when he started teaching in Korea. Shotokan was modified Okinawan Te. It was taught Under the authority of the Dai Nippon Butoku Kai which was part of of the ministry of education. Compared to the "original" te TKD is thin as an art.

 

[zDom]

I am in no position to judge CHKD as I have never met anyone who has practiced it.

I do know THIS, however:

A student who quit MSK hapkido at the dojang where I trained at green belt (our progression is white, yellow, orange, green) reportedly applied for and was awarded a CHKD black belt via mail. I've seen the Web site for the school he opened.

I find that ... disturbing.

Especially since he, by my observations, quit us because it was too hard for him and he wasn't promoting as fast as he wanted to. He was asking at yellow belt after only a couple months of training how long it would take for him to get to black belt so he could open his own school.

I'm not knocking CHKD as I have no personal experience encountering it. But any organization willing to promote gups from another system to chodan without a physical test conducted in person is, in my opinion, lacking integrity.

(shrug) or maybe they just think we are THAT good: that one of our below-average green belts is the equivalent of a black belt in CHKD.

 

[goingd]

I my mind it is an invalid comparison. Bruce Lee talked about the disadvantage of set forms, Pelligrini criticized most traditional martial arts by throwing them in a barrel with pure demonstration and flash styles.

On a side note (apparently since part of this thread already diverged a bit off topic), Gen. Choi was not the only one to influence Taekwondo. He named it but did not designate it's concepts and techniques. Just saying. Taekwondo is pure sport when practiced as pure sport. Wushu is pure show when practiced as pure show. Not Taekwondo schools only practice it as sport.

... ^~^

 

[Kumbajah]

The ironic thing is that Hapkido ( at least Ji's line) is an amalgamation of what the pioneers thought was the most useful. In the Game of Death, Bruce gave GM Ji the highest position in the tower ( i.e. the closest to Bruce's ideal of no form represented by Bruce) The movie was suposed to be an allegory for Bruce's philosphy. GM P is a Johnny come lately selling ideas as his own.

 

[zDom]

Apologies to anyone I might have offended with my previous post. I logged back on to edit but it's too late now. Ah well.

 

[goingd]

I didn't see any reason to edit your post. It shouldn't have offended - it was just an opinion. ^~^

 

[Chris from CT]

If an award were given for stirring up controversy, combat- hapkido creator John Pellegrini of Brandon, Florida, would be the world champion of 2003. His opening statement in the cover story of the June 2003 issue of Black Belt—“Forget the fancy high kicks, lose the forms and stop wasting time with healing, meditation and breathing exercises or outdated weapons training”—was nearly as bold as the late Bruce Lee’s infamous 1966 declaration that “all fixed set patterns are incapable of adaptability or pliability—the truth is outside of all fixed patterns.”

As you can see the comparison was about statements made by each. I can see how each of these statement may upset some people and may be considered controversial.

Out of curiosity, what do you find humorous and disturbing about the quoted paragraph?

I get a little frustrated when I hear quotes by GMP about Traditional Hapkido, not because he is doing financially well, but his blatant attempt at putting down Traditional Hapkido inaccurately.

I say that because his view and classification of what traditional Hapkido is, is false.

The reasons behind that are…

1. Hapkido did not/does not have "fancy high kicks or forms."

2. In addition to that, the only healing that it had was immediate first aid when you messed up your partner during training (muscle spasms, dislocations, getting knocked out, etc.). And to be honest, in our litigious society, how many Hapkido dojang today teach how to reduce a shoulder (putting it back in)? So he didn’t have to take much out there either.

3. The breathing exercises, if for nothing less was to help muscle conditioning through contracture of the body's muscles while doing basic movements. We can look at them in a more esoteric view, but as far as breathing exercises being irrelevant is ridiculous using GMP’s reasons for getting rid of them. That is unless in CHKD it isn’t a “benefit” to be physically in shape.

4. The use of outdated weapons can be thought of as useless only if you do not think of them outside of the "traditional box." Using a very basic example, swinging a sword repeatedly in an efficient way, as taught traditionally, can definitely increase the strength and accuracy when I swing a basic stick at someone to defend myself.

So, yes, I do find it a little disturbing that GMP is getting compared with Bruce Lee because just from the first two statements I made shows that he knew very little of what made up traditional Hapkido. We've all heard that saying, "you have to know the rules before you break them."

Note: to help keep this from getting out of hand, I did not mention anything of GMP skills in this post.

 

[crushing]

(shrug) or maybe they just think we are THAT good: that one of our below-average green belts is the equivalent of a black belt in CHKD.

Looks like the key word in your post was "reportedly". It's tough to tell without confirmation. All the people I know that are black belts in ICHF trained for years to earn it. But, since we've all heard of so many schools in the various martial arts where black belts are sold, it would not surprise me if one of these schools that have CHKD as an add-on may do the same for the BB cert as there isn't a national certification board that conducts the testing for 1st Dan.

Anyway, your last paragraph has me wondering why you wouldn't assume your organization is that good, rather than that he other organization must just be that bad.

 

[crushing]

I say that because his view and classification of what traditional Hapkido is, is false.

The reasons behind that are…

Thanks Chris! I appreciate your perspective on the comparison of their quotes and I certainly don't disagree with it.

Note: to help keep this from getting out of hand, I did not mention anything of GMP skills in this post.

:lfao: It kind of backed in there though, didn't it?

 

[Flying Crane]

"...stop wasting time with healing..."

This isn't directed at MBuzzy, but rather a question of the original quote. What the hell is wrong with healing? We all ought to be learning some amount of healing, esp. when we practice a destructive art. sheesh. myopic.

 

[MBuzzy]

I agree with you, although I'm not sure that I'd trust my martial arts instructor to teach me. I have met a few that have genuine knowledge of healing practices...but I've also met a lot that don't know anything, but assume that they do.

 

[Brian Jones]

The ironic thing is that Hapkido ( at least Ji's line) is an amalgamation of what the pioneers thought was the most useful. In the Game of Death, Bruce gave GM Ji the highest position in the tower ( i.e. the closest to Bruce's ideal of no form represented by Bruce) The movie was suposed to be an allegory for Bruce's philosphy. GM P is a Johnny come lately selling ideas as his own.

Ummm. No. The Highest level was where Kareem Abdul Jabbar was.

 

[Kumbajah]

Sorry - You're correct.

Kareem was supposed to represent Jeet Kun Do. The sensitivity to light was his down fall. Maybe we are not supposed to look at JKD to closely - it fails in the light of day. Or by exposing it to the light of day it is revealed as another set system and Bruce is able to trancend it.

 

[CDKJudoka]

I get a little frustrated when I hear quotes by GMP about Traditional Hapkido, not because he is doing financially well, but his blatant attempt at putting down Traditional Hapkido inaccurately.

I say that because his view and classification of what traditional Hapkido is, is false.

The reasons behind that are…

1. Hapkido did not/does not have "fancy high kicks or forms."

No fancy high kicks or forms? Last time I checked HKD had some kicks that would rival TKD on the fancy scale.

 

[Chris from CT]

No fancy high kicks or forms? Last time I checked HKD had some kicks that would rival TKD on the fancy scale.

Those are some nice kicks in the video.

You are talking about Hapkido from GM Ji, Han-jae's lineage (pre or post Sin Moo), which has some unbelievable kicks.

In my previous post I was talking about Hapkido not from GM Ji's lineage (more from Choi, Yong-sul dojunim). Here we have very few kicks and 90% of them were below the waist. Depending on where you stand that could be seen as a positive or a negative.

I stand by my previous post. BUT, in hindsight, I could have been more specific. My bad.

 

[zDom]

Those are some nice kicks in the video.

You are talking about Hapkido from GM Ji, Han-jae's lineage (pre or post Sin Moo), which has some unbelievable kicks.

In my previous post I was talking about Hapkido not from GM Ji's lineage (more from Choi, Yong-sul dojunim). Here we have very few kicks and 90% of them were below the waist. Depending on where you stand that could be seen as a positive or a negative.

I stand by my previous post. BUT, in hindsight, I could have been more specific. My bad.

Moo Sul Kwan hapkido also has dynamic kicking.

For what its worth, GM Ji was not alone responsible for adding in the dynamic kicks.

According to Dakin Burdick (and this information is substaniated by other accounts, fwiw):

Around 1958, both Choi and Suh opened their own schools in Taegu City. Yong-Sul Choi had been teaching privately on straw mats in the courtyard of his home since 1953. Among his pupils were Han-Jae Ji (then a freshman at Taegu City Technical High School) and Mu-Hyun Kim (aka. Mu-Wung Kim, Moo-Woong Kim, Moo-Moong Kim). Around 1958, Choi started his own tojang in an old dancing hall. Suh sold his brewery and opened a hapkido school at Chung-ang-dong, hiring Mu-Hyun Kim (then 21 years old) as his head instructor. Kim later moved to Seoul, where “he went to some temple to develop his kicking techniques which originally Hap Ki Do never had much of.” According to Kimm, Mu-Hyun Kim was known as a kicking specialist, and it was during his eight month stay in Seoul at Ji’s school that Hapkido’s kicks were finalized.

The Suh is Bok-Sup Suh, Choi's first student.

The Kimm is Dr. He-young Kimm

Kim (Mu-hyun) also taught at the (Korean) Musulkwan founded by Kwang-Wha Won, a student of Suh (and Choi). Dakin writes that:

Kwang-Wha Won was the personal secretary and bodyguard for Congressman Dong-Jin Suh from 1954 to 1958. Won learned yukweonsul from Bok-Sup Suh. Won moved to San Sun Kyo, Seoul, and opened his own school (Musulkwan) after teaching at Mu-Wung Kim’s tojang in 1962. Notable students were Lee-Hyun Park (a professor at Southeast Missouri State University), He-young Kimm, Hyung-dae Won (Won’s son and head of the Musulkwan after his father’s death). Musulkwan training specialized in short stick, knife defense, powerful and direct armlocks, defense against right hand attacks, big circle throws.

Lee-Hyun Park is, of course, the same late Lee H. Park who founded the (American) Moo Sul Kwan.

FWIW, GM Ji is a giant in the history of hapkido. It doesn't diminish him any to note that Kim was ALSO key to developing HKD's dynamic kicking.

I would hope that in the future his name is not forgotten in discussion of hapkido's dynamic kicking and that credit is given where credit is due in future discussions.


In my opinion, hapkido's dynamic kicking is "young man's hapkido" that is great for pushing athleticism in training, intimidating to opponents when dealing with multiple attackers, and extremely effective finishing techniques for those who invest the time and training to make use of these tools feasible.

I am finding myself transitioning to an "older man's hapkido" where I believe myself to be less and less likely to grab these particular tools (at least, the flashier ones ) if forced to defend myself.

BUT I think

(HERE is where I bring it back "on topic" )

that keeping these kicks within the curriculum is very important.

It is true that not everybody will be able to use them. But some can and will, and I don't think we, today, should deprive future generations of hapkido'in with the opportunity to train them and decide for themselves if they want to put those tools to use.

They ALSO have value in pushing us (as hapkido'in) physically. To me, training difficult kicks, makes the basic kicks seem easy in comparison.

Those who ONLY train the easy stuff may end up feeling as if THOSE are difficult — making even the basic kicks hard and maybe even not useable.

THAT is my objection to decisions by ANYONE to "pare down" and eliminate techniques from hapkido to come up with what THEY believe to be a smaller, practical curriculum.

Just because an individual — grandmaster or not — finds a technique not useful for THEM doesn't mean it might not be perfect for a future hapkido'in.

I would not ever presume to eliminate something from MSK hapkido, whether I think it works or not. Maybe the problem is with ME, not the technique.

 

[Drac]

I have avoided commenting in this thread much because of my association with GMP and the ICHF.. I see it as just another oppertunity for so called experts tucked safely away in their computer rooms to bash Combat Hapkido and its founder..So rather than engage in a counter productive discussion let me say this..

I have been associated with Combat Hapkido and GM Pellegrini for the past 4 years and I have NEVER, EVER heard him put down another discipline or its founder...THAT is the mark of a gentleman and a true Grandmaster..

 

[terrylamar]

I have avoided commenting in this thread much because of my association with GMP and the ICHF.. I see it as just another oppertunity for so called experts tucked safely away in their computer rooms to bash Combat Hapkido and its founder..So rather than engage in a counter productive discussion let me say this..

I have been associated with Combat Hapkido and GM Pellegrini for the past 4 years and I have NEVER, EVER heard him put down another discipline or is founder...THAT is the mark of a gentleman and a true Grandmaster..

Oh, I get it, you mean unlike some of the posters on here.

 

[Father Greek]

For those of you who disagree with the original part of this post, please look at the number of posts on MT that have to do with Combat Hapkido and Grand Master Pellegrini. The pure number of posts proves that what the author of the article said is correct.