"combat" hkd... sry

[MBuzzy]

I'll try and stay on the question of the original topic.

The question that I have is what were each trying to acheive?

I think GM Pelligrini was trying to take an existing "-do" (Hapkido) and, in essence, revert it back to the "-yusul" (Hapkiyusul), from which the "-do" developed from.

I think his situation is different than Bruce Lee's.

I think Mr. Lee was trying to synthesize a new art from a variety of existing Arts.

Both may have used some of the same methods to acheive their goals, however, their goals were different.

Just my $0.02

So back to the original topic - this is a really good argument. Although, it depends what aspect of the comparison you are looking at. From the standpoint the arts that they created and what they set out to do, I agree, different goals.

But from public reaction and the "novelty" of what they did, I still think that it is a good comparison.

 

[crushing]

Really?

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6346146385542976175

Nice video, the music was a little loud. Was it supposed to prove something?

 

[zDom]

So back to the original topic - this is a really good argument. Although, it depends what aspect of the comparison you are looking at. From the standpoint the arts that they created and what they set out to do, I agree, different goals.

But from public reaction and the "novelty" of what they did, I still think that it is a good comparison.

I also think it is a valid comparison.

Both decided that TMAs had too much "fluff" and that they should establish their own, new style that focuses on effective techniques.

And (this is not a bash, just a difference of opinion) I think they

were BOTH wrong!

I think that idea works on an individual level but is wrong at the system/curriculum level.

Or, to restate, in my opinion, INDIVIDUALS should focus on what works for THEM for their personal martial art style.

But in eliminating techinques from a system, from a curriculum, you may deprive future students for something that would be great for THEM even if YOU find it doesn't work.

For example, low spinning heel kick to someone's calf — I've just never been very good at. Never quite clicked for me. Jump spinning heel kick to the head? Yep. But the low one? Not so much ...

But I see this not as a problem in the technique, but in ME. Maybe I didn't give it a good chance, didn't try hard enough at it, didn't put in the reps.

But I've seen plenty of folk who can whip that out "like ringin' a bell."

Logically, if every generation's instructors eliminate techniques based on what they think works, eventually (over the course of hundreds or thousands of years) end up with what, a couple techniques? Zero? Eventually, each and every technique would be eliminated as there is bound to be SOMEONE who decides they can't make technique X work for them.

This doesn't mean I think CHKD or JKD are bad systems. Clearly there are many folk who are perfectly happy with them — and that is fine. Ultimately, I think people should train with the best instructor they can who is around — and if that is a CHKD or JKD instructor, so be it.

But I think slimming down systems based on an individual's proficiency with techniques is a bad idea, overall, for the martial arts. And I DO object to them implying or outright stating that their system is better than MY system because they got rid of "junk" or "fluff." Isn't that, in fact, a roundabout way of bashing me and my instructors? (Silly us, keeping these useless techniques in our curriculum, eh?)

I mean, EVERY martial art system picks and chooses techniques. And the NUMBER of techniques each system decides to focus on is hotly debated: some, like boxing, take it down to only a dozen or so (sorry if I have this number wrong — never studied boxing, but it seems about that many) while others — some style of hapkido, for example, study thousands.

It's a judgement call, really. Do you just choose ONE technique and limit your options but become really REALLY good at that ONE technique? Or study a kajillion and only get to practice each technique a couple times in a lifetime?

Most of us pick somewhere in between these extremes and are happy with our choice.

My final comment is: maybe Pellegrini wouldn't have run into so much negative energy if he had simply called it Pellegrini's Hapkido or stuck with Chon-Tu Kwan Hapkido instead of "Combat Hapkido."

I've always found that name a bit offensive — it seems to imply that MY hapkido is, what? something not appropriate for combat? "Sport" hapkido?

ALL hapkido is "combat" hapkido (or SHOULD be — if not, then it isn't hapkido at all!)

So, yea: Lee and Pellegrini are comparable. Except Bruce didn't call his new art "Fighting Wing Chun"

 

[Kumbajah]

Nice video, the music was a little loud. Was it supposed to prove something?

That is isn't just "self defense" - the "defender" becomes the aggressor which is Not self defense.

 

[yorkshirelad]

York,

I think you are missing the point entirely. TMA doesn't inhibit self defense. They include self defense and go beyond, I can't know the life you are living - if you are truly in danger at a daly basis I am sorry, living in fear for your life every day is a rough go. I can only suggest moving or arming yourself heavily. If you want to study a "do" it does transcend basic self defense. It is a way to live your life. "DO" translated most simply means path. It is how you view your life. Some do it through religion, some do it through life experience, some choose to view through the philosophy of "do"
.

LOl!! You're sarcasm hasn't been wasted on me. Kudos. I was working as Security in a nightclub in Dublin, Ireland during the latter part of my Hapkido training. My life was in no more danger than any other bouncer, but I wasn't interested in meditation, Dan Jun breathing, or kicks that if tried, would have resulted in me getting my **** kicked and probably fired.

We can go into discussion relating to the correct use of the term "Do" in Korean and Japanese martial arts, but in this contents "Do" is meaningless. Obviously GMP used the term Hapkido because his art is based on his Hapkido training. As founder of the system he can call the art anything he wants and teach people any techniques that he see fit as, Choi, Ji and all others have before him.

My take on the whole situation is, that if you have a problem with the system, don't train in it. Obviously GMP is doing well for himself and people want to train in his system. If what he teaches is nonsense then the market will dictate that he fail. His system has gone from strength to strength, so he must be doing something right. I have yet to meet the man and right now funds are scarse. If I do come up woth some excess cash however, I will jump at the chance to go to one of his seminars.

 

[yorkshirelad]

Really?

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6346146385542976175

I didn't see anyone get their arm broken in that clip. Where was it?

 

[Kumbajah]

Wow - do you break your training partners arms? Rough School - High turnover.

 

[Kumbajah]

We can go into discussion relating to the correct use of the term "Do" in Korean and Japanese martial arts, but in this contents "Do" is meaningless. Obviously GMP used the term Hapkido because his art is based on his Hapkido training. As founder of the system he can call the art anything he wants and teach people any techniques that he see fit as, Choi, Ji and all others have before him.

As a practitioner of Hapkido I am free to say what he does isn't HKD, no matter of his reasoning or financial success. It's rather silly to take out the "do" and then call it an enhanced "do" - imo of course. Do you like peanutbutterless peanutbutter and jelly sandwiches? ( sorry a rather American reference don't know the UK version - Tealess Tea? )

 

[goingd]

Really?

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6346146385542976175

How dare they use music from 007! Lol, but really I'll post about all this later.

^~^

 

[yorkshirelad]

Wow - do you break your training partners arms? Rough School - High turnover.

Again, nobody in the clip got their arm broken. Maybe the "Do" in Combat Hapkido refers to GMP "way" of doing things. You obviously don't like him and his system, so I wish you luck in training in THKD. Let's just leave it at that.

 

[Kumbajah]

Of course no one got their arm broken. It was a demo and these are training partners. That is what these techniques are designed to do tho. A outer wrist throw is designed to break the wrist.

So GM P can co-opt not only a Korean arts name but change the meaning of "DO"- this is getting more ridiculous as this go on. Lets leave it that you are so enamored that you refuse to see it.

 

[crushing]

That is isn't just "self defense" - the "defender" becomes the aggressor which is Not self defense.

A demonstration of a technique on its own, such as shown in the video, does not have context. You have decided to create a context, an assumption if you will, where nothing lead up to the point at which the technique is performed. Now create a context where the attacker has made an intent to injure or kill clear. Maybe the attacker has a friend or two that are coming at the defender. You can only be not aggressive so long before being overwhelmed by attackers.

Do you think the same of this very similar video?

 

[goingd]

I do not "lump" Pelligrini's supporters as decievers. I don't know their reasons for working with him, and I just don't care all that much.

My problem with him is not the number of techniques in his system or even the techniques themselves. I have a problem with his performance of those techniques. He has clearly bought his way into a rank that in my opinion does not reflect his ability.

I got more than enough feedback, so I'd be happy if the thread ended about now. But if not, oh well.

^~^

 

[jks9199]

Attention all users:

Please return to the original topic, and keep the discussion polite and respectful.

jks9199
Moderator

 

[Kumbajah]

Do you think the same of this very similar video?

Yep- esp the "neck breaking" technique.

 

[crushing]

Actually, I just reread the expert AGAIN and realized that the writer wasn't even comparing the statement, he was saying that GM P's statement was just as bold as Lee's statement. Basically that they both stirred up controversy. I know that people are very anxious to put down anything done by GM Pelligrini, but again, this statement is nothing to get upset about. It is still a solid comparison. GM P's statement was bold, Bruce Lee's statement was bold. You can't argue with that.

Crushing already pointed this out....but the discussion, it seems, is still based on what kind of martial artist GM P is, not about the statement that he made.

You really hit the nail on the head with this post!

 

[yorkshirelad]

Of course no one got their arm broken. It was a demo and these are training partners. That is what these techniques are designed to do tho. A outer wrist throw is designed to break the wrist.

So GM P can co-opt not only a Korean arts name but change the meaning of "DO"- this is getting more ridiculous as this go on. Lets leave it that you are so enamored that you refuse to see it.

I've never met the guy. I saw some in the Hapkido world who treated certain Grandmasters as demi-gods. I appreciate what GMP does, I am not in any way enamoured with him or anyone else for that matter and btw, I am not a BB in Combat Hapkido. I am a chudan in Sin Moo Hapkido, I have only seen footage of CHKD and I happen to like it. You seem rather angry. We're talking about Martail Arts here. If you don't like what he does, don't train with him. Good luck with your training mate.

 

[Catalyst]

Although, it depends what aspect of the comparison you are looking at.

Agreed, depending upon which perspective you're coming from, you can reach a different conclusion.


If you approach it from this aspect,

But from public reaction and the "novelty" of what they did, I still think that it is a good comparison.

Then I also agree with your conclusion.

Isn't it wonderful when we're willing to look at things in different ways? :asian:

 

[Kumbajah]

I've never met the guy. I saw some in the Hapkido world who treated certain Grandmasters as demi-gods. I appreciate what GMP does, I am not in any way enamoured with him or anyone else for that matter and btw, I am not a BB in Combat Hapkido. I am a chudan in Sin Moo Hapkido, I have only seen footage of CHKD and I happen to like it. You seem rather angry. We're talking about Martail Arts here. If you don't like what he does, don't train with him. Good luck with your training mate.

At the end of the day my opinion is just my opinion. I'm not angry, GM P doesn't cross my mind unless I come this discussion board. I thought that was the point - to discuss. I just am pointing out what I find to be misguided in my opinion. I haven't had anyone give me any compelling reason to change my opinion mostly it comes in the forms of "but we like it" or "he's finatially successful so he must be right" never addressing my points directly. People can spend their money on anything they like - Hopefully by discussing it they will more informed.

 

[MBuzzy]

Ok guys....this is just an unofficialy little reminder here. We've had two official warnings, seriously, back to topic. If you want to discuss anything other than the posted article and the comparision, please feel free to start another thread.

On that note,

Then I also agree with your conclusion.

Isn't it wonderful when we're willing to look at things in different ways? :asian:

Yes! Thank you! Really, my opinion here is that the author probably never envisioned a 3 page philosophical discussion on the comparision that he made and probably put very little thought into it. It is certainly interesting to compare what the two men have done and haven't done.

They both created an art from what they knew of other styles...they both focused on what they found to be most effective...they both disposed of a great many traditional practices...and they were both ostracized by their respective previous styles for being revolutionary.

They have both been pretty successful too...