"combat" hkd... sry

[goingd]

An article I read recently (sorry, I couldn't link it but you can find it as reference link number 11 on combat hapkido's wikipedia article), positively compared John Pelligrini with Bruce Lee........

What is your take on such comparison? (mine was a mix of laughter and disturbance, no honest means to offend)

^~^

 

[crushing]

The link was extremely easy to find. You even said where it was.

Link #11 goes to: http://www.***************/martial-articles/DISTRACT_DISABLE_AND_DESTROY.html

If an award were given for stirring up controversy, combat- hapkido creator John Pellegrini of Brandon, Florida, would be the world champion of 2003. His opening statement in the cover story of the June 2003 issue of Black Belt—“Forget the fancy high kicks, lose the forms and stop wasting time with healing, meditation and breathing exercises or outdated weapons training”—was nearly as bold as the late Bruce Lee’s infamous 1966 declaration that “all fixed set patterns are incapable of adaptability or pliability—the truth is outside of all fixed patterns.”

As you can see the comparison was about statements made by each. I can see how each of these statement may upset some people and may be considered controversial.

Out of curiosity, what do you find humorous and disturbing about the quoted paragraph?

 

[Wey]

The link was extremely easy to find. You even said where it was.

Link #11 goes to: http://www.***************/martial-articles/DISTRACT_DISABLE_AND_DESTROY.html

As you can see the comparison was about statements made by each. I can see how each of these statement may upset some people and may be considered controversial.

Out of curiosity, what do you find humorous and disturbing about the quoted paragraph?

I don't think forms are completely outdated. I believe there are good techniques to be learned from them, but to get the most out of them is to practice them without a fixed pattern. Just my opinion.

 

[goingd]

The link was extremely easy to find. You even said where it was.

Link #11 goes to: http://www.***************/martial-articles/DISTRACT_DISABLE_AND_DESTROY.html

As you can see the comparison was about statements made by each. I can see how each of these statement may upset some people and may be considered controversial.

Out of curiosity, what do you find humorous and disturbing about the quoted paragraph?

Try clicking the link - it doesn't work - that is why I did not post it.

In my minds eye Pelligrini has done Hapkido a disservice in several ways. And in my minds eye Bruce Lee did the world an incredible service. So I thought that something that was so far from my perceived truth was funny. I found disturbing that because of what I think is so much controlled bias throughout the internet and in magazines, Pelligrini may actually go down in the martial history of many people in the same category with Bruce Lee. I should have said that I found it upsetting rather than disturbing.

I may no longer practice Hapkido formally or even as my primary martial art, but I have a heart for it, and most things relating to combat hapkido literally make me sad. I've practiced even less Kenpo but I feel the same way when I see things like that...

 

[goingd]

I don't think forms are completely outdated. I believe there are good techniques to be learned from them, but to get the most out of them is to practice them without a fixed pattern. Just my opinion.

I completely agree with that. We have to first restrict ourselves so that we can become unrestricted, and we have to first limit ourselves so that we can become limitless.

 

[MBuzzy]

I can certainly see the comparision. They are both advocating a divergence from the traditional - and isn't that really what is upsetting people about GM Pelligrini? Not that he is doing something new and innovative (because in reality, it ISN'T that new, the novelty is in the presentation and marketing), but because he is using the name Hapkido, as is there is some mystical traditional standard related to that name.

If he had called his system Combat Aikido, it would be the Aikido people that we up in arms; if he had called it Combat Wing Chun, they would be unhappy. It is just naming. The system is based on his background, which is Hapkido. How much experience he had in it is irrelevant. He has still created a system which is new, innovative and different from the "traditional" - just like Bruce Lee did. All Lee did was take the things that he had learned from being an exceptional Martial Artist and created a new way of presenting things that worked better for him and obviously for others.

 

[Kumbajah]

I can certainly see the comparision. They are both advocating a divergence from the traditional - and isn't that really what is upsetting people about GM Pelligrini? Not that he is doing something new and innovative (because in reality, it ISN'T that new, the novelty is in the presentation and marketing), but because he is using the name Hapkido, as is there is some mystical traditional standard related to that name.

If he had called his system Combat Aikido, it would be the Aikido people that we up in arms; if he had called it Combat Wing Chun, they would be unhappy. It is just naming. The system is based on his background, which is Hapkido. How much experience he had in it is irrelevant. He has still created a system which is new, innovative and different from the "traditional" - just like Bruce Lee did. All Lee did was take the things that he had learned from being an exceptional Martial Artist and created a new way of presenting things that worked better for him and obviously for others.

I think some of the basic difference is that Bruce could translate his theory into action. There was little doubt that Bruce could show you what he was talking about. He also didn't say he was creating "new" wing chun. He liberally stole from everyone and thought that each should find he own way. Called his method something new because it was something new.

GM P - attached himself to Hapkido's wagon to sell to a TKD crowd. It was originally to designed as an add on to TKD, something that TKD had been doing for years anyway to fill out their self defense. Even Gen Choi included HKD (represented HKD as TKD) in his book. So there was a standing tradition of TKD leaching of HKD. GM P just changed the marketing so as to have the cash flow to himself.

Secondly I don't see "How much experience he had in it is irrelevant. " especially if he claims to have streamlined HKD. If it truly a new thing why call it Hapkido anything. He draws a lot of ire from the HKD community also because his HKD basics are terrible. He doesn't have a firm grasp of the art that he has "modernized" - He is imo, the embodiment what is wrong with the MAs. Selling a fantasy.

 

[clfsean]

Secondly I don't see "How much experience he had in it is irrelevant. " especially if he claims to have streamlined HKD. If it truly a new thing why call it Hapkido anything.

Same reason BL called it Jeet Kune Do. Aside from a few WC principles & BL speaking Canontese, there's nothing CMA about it.

He draws a lot of ire from the HKD community also because his HKD basics are terrible. He doesn't have a firm grasp of the art that he has "modernized" - He is imo, the embodiment what is wrong with the MAs. Selling a fantasy.

Much like a ton of other people from all walks of MA advertising their "new & improved" anything. They're going to get their business regardless of calling what it is or "Bubba Joe's School of Hard Knocks & Mud Stomping".

 

[Drac]

I think some of the basic difference is that Bruce could translate his theory into action. There was little doubt that Bruce could show you what he was talking about.

If you ever bothered to attend a seminar you would discover that GMP could show you what he was talking about also

.

Secondly I don't see "How much experience he had in it is irrelevant. " especially if he claims to have streamlined HKD. If it truly a new thing why call it Hapkido anything. He draws a lot of ire from the HKD community also because his HKD basics are terrible. He doesn't have a firm grasp of the art that he has "modernized" - He is imo, the embodiment what is wrong with the MAs. Selling a fantasy.

This " fantasy" works..I was very wary of CH and GMP when I first encountered them having come from a very strict traditional discipline..I have used his techniques on the streets with great sucess..

 

[MBuzzy]

I think some of the basic difference is that Bruce could translate his theory into action. There was little doubt that Bruce could show you what he was talking about.

I don't know if GM P could the flashy kicks that Bruce Lee could do, but I've been his Uke....so I'm not sure how you can say that what he does doesn't translate into action. His techniques are just as effective as the Traditional HKD instructor (4th Dan) that I used to study with. He can show you exactly what he's talking about and does. He is also very good at translating theory into instruction. He is one of the few that I've encountered who can look at what you're doing and tell you exactly how to modify to make it work.

GM P - attached himself to Hapkido's wagon to sell to a TKD crowd. It was originally to designed as an add on to TKD, something that TKD had been doing for years anyway to fill out their self defense. Even Gen Choi included HKD (represented HKD as TKD) in his book. So there was a standing tradition of TKD leaching of HKD. GM P just changed the marketing so as to have the cash flow to himself.

and? It is a separate way of teaching. A separate style and system of instruction. If you ask me, as another instructor and student, I would rather have some kind of backing behind the "add on" that I'm giving my students than what many TKD instructors have. I have encountered some TKD instructors who integrate HKD, tell their students that it is HKD, but have little to no HKD experience. So what is wrong with that same instructor telling his students that he uses the CHKD system?

Secondly I don't see "How much experience he had in it is irrelevant. " especially if he claims to have streamlined HKD. If it truly a new thing why call it Hapkido anything. He draws a lot of ire from the HKD community also because his HKD basics are terrible. He doesn't have a firm grasp of the art that he has "modernized" - He is imo, the embodiment what is wrong with the MAs. Selling a fantasy.

It works, which is what I care about. Personally, I couldn't care less what it is called. Should it be called "Hapkido" anything? That's a matter of opinion. I think you may have missed the point of what he teaches. Of course, I don't have a very strong background in Traditional Hapkido OR Combat Hapkido, but have attended several seminars from both styles. If what he does works, it can be taught, and people like it....why does his background matter? Every art is descended from another style through repackaging. Many of the "founders" of other styles worked from scratch or from a loose knowledge of other styles based on interpretation and experimentation.

What bothers me most about these discussions is that none of the discussion is based on the style of CHKD itself. It is based on the man who created it and more often than not, the denigration of the man. I have yet to have EVER seen a discussion based on any failings of the art itself. Some very vague assertations of "I've seen it and his basics are horrible." But that says nothing....how many great fighters don't look anything like their parent style? Does it matter? Of course not. Does it matter that what they do doesn't look like the basics that you practice back and forth on the floor? No. It works, that is what matters....and THAT was the focus of what Bruce Lee was trying to preach. Do what works and don't be tied down by tradition. My opinion is that people are focusing on the wrong basics. He understands the concepts of Joint Manipulation and Pain compliance and how to use force multipliers against vulnerable targets on the body. Isn't that the REAL basics of Hapkido? Please demonstrate his lack of understanding of those basics or how those basics are terrible. I'm talking about the basics that force an Uke to comply based on manipulation of their body.

So again, I think that the comparison was solid. Both of them stated that the most effective way of practicing Martial Arts is to do what works and eliminate what doesn't. That is the focus of both of their styles, is it not?

Bottom line is, I've been there and experienced it and it works....Plus, he's a really nice guy.

 

[Kumbajah]

I have been through this all before - he doesn't have good basics for any jujutsu based art not just for Hapkido. It's not worth my time to go through it again. It's in the archives.

My point of being an add on is - HKD is it's own art and deserves to be studied as one. TKD adds HKD - HKD doesn't add TKD. None of the add on is as good as the whole art that it was taken from. TKD should just be the sport that it is and be happy with it. Stop trying to be something it isn't.

The comparison of GM P and B.L. is just plain silly.

 

[goingd]

I have been through this all before - he doesn't have good basics for any jujutsu based art not just for Hapkido. It's not worth my time to go through it again. It's in the archives.

My point of being an add on is - HKD is it's own art and deserves to be studied as one. TKD adds HKD - HKD doesn't add TKD. None of the add on is as good as the whole art that it was taken from. TKD should just be the sport that it is and be happy with it. Stop trying to be something it isn't.

The comparison of GM P and B.L. is just plain silly.

Taekwondo is more than sport to me, and I respect Hapkido as it's own deep entity. Heh, but that's besides the point.

I knew this would be controversial, but I have to say that I just CANNOT agree that what Pelligrini says has genuine comparison to Bruce Lee...... scary....

 

[crushing]

I have been through this all before.

You beat me to it!

 

[arnisador]

The comparison of GM P and B.L. is just plain silly.

With very few exceptions, all comparisons to Bruce Lee are silly. It isn't just that he was very good--it's that everyone is different.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

With very few exceptions, all comparisons to Bruce Lee are silly. It isn't just that he was very good--it's that everyone is different.

No only that but really should Bruce Lee be the measuring stick?

 

[MBuzzy]

Ok, let's clear this up. I think that the presentation has muddied the waters a bit. The quote from the article is as follows:

If an award were given for stirring up controversy, combat- hapkido creator John Pellegrini of Brandon, Florida, would be the world champion of 2003. His opening statement in the cover story of the June 2003 issue of Black Belt. Forget the fancy high kicks, lose the forms and stop wasting time with healing, meditation and breathing exercises or outdated weapons training was nearly as bold as the late Bruce Lee's infamous 1966 declaration that all fixed set patterns are incapable of adaptability or pliability the truth is outside of all fixed patterns.

We are not talking about comparing skills of martial artists or of their impact on the community or any of the many things that it seems people are referring to. What is being compared is a statement and belief that GM P has and a statement and belief that Bruce Lee had. Nothing more.

So based on that....how is this not a valide comparison?

"Forget the fancy high kicks, lose the forms and stop wasting time with healing, meditation and breathing exercises"
vs
"all fixed set patterns are incapable of adaptability or pliability; the truth is outside of all fixed patterns"
Are they not both advocating a divergence from tradition? Are they not both advocating that effectiveness is more important than forms?

I believe that we need to stop inflating this one sentence literary statement into something that it is not. Time will tell how much of an influence GM P has in the overall scheme. Bruce Lee's story is written, GM P's is still in progress. The writer was comparing a belief and theory, not the men.

 

[MBuzzy]

Actually, I just reread the expert AGAIN and realized that the writer wasn't even comparing the statement, he was saying that GM P's statement was just as bold as Lee's statement. Basically that they both stirred up controversy. I know that people are very anxious to put down anything done by GM Pelligrini, but again, this statement is nothing to get upset about. It is still a solid comparison. GM P's statement was bold, Bruce Lee's statement was bold. You can't argue with that.

Crushing already pointed this out....but the discussion, it seems, is still based on what kind of martial artist GM P is, not about the statement that he made.

 

[terryl965]

I have been through this all before - he doesn't have good basics for any jujutsu based art not just for Hapkido. It's not worth my time to go through it again. It's in the archives.

My point of being an add on is - HKD is it's own art and deserves to be studied as one. TKD adds HKD - HKD doesn't add TKD. None of the add on is as good as the whole art that it was taken from. TKD should just be the sport that it is and be happy with it. Stop trying to be something it isn't.

The comparison of GM P and B.L. is just plain silly.

Sorry but the point about all TKD is is a sport and should be happy that way, well long before it was a sport it was an Art and should be treated like one.

 

[arnisador]

GM P's statement was bold, Bruce Lee's statement was bold. You can't argue with that.

He made essentially the same statement as Bruce Lee did, but 37 years later and with many fewer people taking notice? Eh, not so bold, actually. By that time MMA had thrown away all of that stuff with much less fuss.

I've never met the man and have no first-hand knowledge either way on his abilities. (People whom I respect respect him, so in fact I'm favourably inclined toward him.) But "Forget the fancy high kicks, lose the forms and stop wasting time with healing, meditation and breathing exercises or outdated weapons training" was in no way a bold statement in 2003, well after the Gracies started revolutionizing modern training.

 

[Kumbajah]

Sorry but the point about all TKD is is a sport and should be happy that way, well long before it was a sport it was an Art and should be treated like one.

No before it was children's physical education ala Shotokan. Now it is a sport.