Combat between Kiai master and MMA fighter

[RTKDCMB]

"Sexual Institute of Kung Fu".

They could probably put a couple of extra letters after the 'Fu'.

 

[Mephisto]

Documenting fights in a competition martial art/combat sport is easy for a martial art that is only used for self defense it is a lot harder. There is evidence that a self defense martial art works but it is usually not so public and readily available unless someone just happens to get it on video and even then it is hard to tell if the art being used was trained mainly for self defense or sport.

I agree, a non competitive instructor is going to have a lot less documentation available than a competing fighter. That's why I enjoy and encourage instructors to show video of them or their students in action. Problems arise for me when people act as though a competing fighter or a person that trains a competitive art is not prepared for the street. Compliant training is important to understanding techniqur and building skill, but the proof is in the pudding (or however that cliche goes). If you want the respect of an accomplished fighter, you'll need to be able to prove it to those that don't train with you if you truly care.

 

[Zero]

I agree, a non competitive instructor is going to have a lot less documentation available than a competing fighter. That's why I enjoy and encourage instructors to show video of them or their students in action. Problems arise for me when people act as though a competing fighter or a person that trains a competitive art is not prepared for the street. Compliant training is important to understanding techniqur and building skill, but the proof is in the pudding (or however that cliche goes). If you want the respect of an accomplished fighter, you'll need to be able to prove it to those that don't train with you if you truly care.

Not saying a disagree with you there but how many do you think actually want the respect of an accomplished fighter? To such instructors or their students, what would that be worth exactly and why should they truly care about that?

 

[Mephisto]

Not saying a disagree with you there but how many do you think actually want the respect of an accomplished fighter? To such instructors or their students, what would that be worth exactly and why should they truly care about that?

Why do you see these guys tearing down mma and sport martial arts? Obviously they care about something or else they'd just do their own thing.

 

[RTKDCMB]

If you want the respect of an accomplished fighter, you'll need to be able to prove it to those that don't train with you if you truly care.

The only people I truly care about the gaining respect of is students (and potential students) of my art. And you get that by teaching correctly.

 

[RTKDCMB]

the proof is in the pudding

It's the fruitcakes you have to look out for.

 

[drop bear]

That is a bit of a straw man.

I could just as easily say:
"You can't win a few competitions in a sport martial art and then run around saying you could use it for self defense if you really wanted to."

It depends on the context. If I heard someone who has never fought in a competition say that he could win the UFC championship I would tend to agree with you. If I heard someone who had been learning a martial art of self defense for a while and haven't had to use it yet say they could probably defend themselves if they need to then I would have to look at how good they were or how well they've trained to determine if their statement could be accurate.

except if they don't fight at all because they are fundamentally opposed to the whole concept. You will never be able to get an idea.

 

[drop bear]

Being able to demonstrate your method in a controlled environment is better evidence than just having a theory about a more realistic environment.

 

[RTKDCMB]

except if they don't fight at all because they are fundamentally opposed to the whole concept. You will never be able to get an idea.

And again it depends on how you define fighting.We have already covered this.

 

[drop bear]

And again it depends on how you define fighting.We have already covered this.

well it depends how you define proof. If I have super fu that I say is a good system. The onus is on me to prove it works. Not for you to disprove it.

If it works in the street then you would need to prove that.

 

[clfsean]

I am a kung fu practicer. I learn shaolin kung fu and wudang taichichuan and I think that soon I will start with wingchun. I started learning some years ago, but I had a knee injury and I had to stop for some time. A few weeks ago I started practicing another time.

So how's your sanda? Why do you think you'll start Wing Chun? You shouldn't need to with what you're already doing.

And I started here with this video because, in my opinion, it is really incredible all that is appearing there. It is incredible how students are affected by the energy of their master. Probably they are so influenced by the master that they really "feel" his ki.

No it's just an example of PT Barnum's "there's a sucker born every minute" and then the ring leader was called out & lost. He gets points for stepping up, but he knew what was going to happen.

 

[RTKDCMB]

well it depends how you define proof.

Proof is for mathematicians and makers of alcohol. How one defines fighting is not dependent on how one defines proof.

If it works in the street then you would need to prove that.

If it works in the street then why would I have to prove it to you? It only matters that it works, whether you personally think it does or it doesn't is irrelevant.

 

[drop bear]

Proof is for mathematicians and makers of alcohol. How one defines fighting is not dependent on how one defines proof.



If it works in the street then why would I have to prove it to you? It only matters that it works, whether you personally think it does or it doesn't is irrelevant.

You have confused proof with opinion. It does not matter what i think or what you think if the statement is backed by evidence.

So it works on the street.(include evidence here)

Or there is no evidence it works on the street.

 

[drop bear]

Proof is for mathematicians and makers of alcohol. How one defines fighting is not dependent on how one defines proof.



If it works in the street then why would I have to prove it to you? It only matters that it works, whether you personally think it does or it doesn't is irrelevant.

suggesting something works in the street but is unable to be seen or quantified is covered as a logical fallacy. The example is the celestial teapot. (which I had the link and then lost)

I can not disprove it but I don't have to.

 

[RTKDCMB]

You have confused proof with opinion. It does not matter what i think or what you think if the statement is backed by evidence.

So it works on the street.(include evidence here)

Or there is no evidence it works on the street.

And so again we are back to if its not on YouTube it doesn't exist.

 

[drop bear]

And so again we are back to if its not on YouTube it doesn't exist.

pretty much.

 

[RTKDCMB]

suggesting something works in the street but is unable to be seen or quantified is covered as a logical fallacy. The example is the celestial teapot. (which I had the link and then lost)

If you want a logical fallacy how about an argument from personal incredulity?. Or moving the goal posts?

 

[RTKDCMB]

pretty much.

Pretty much no. I have eyewitness accounts of my art working at what it was designed for.

 

[Zero]

Why do you see these guys tearing down mma and sport martial arts? Obviously they care about something or else they'd just do their own thing.

What guys? I don't see anyone other than a few guys on youtube with a potential agenda or axe to grind.

But from my 2 yrs in wing chun a while back, which was when UFC was starting to get a large following and mma was growing in popularity (Pride had been a large draw-card for sometime already by then), I never saw any bagging of mma from that corner, at least not at my WC school.

I have never seen any tearing down of mma in the goju ryu clubs I train at (or other karate clubs I have visited). In fact, my old goju club was very much into freestyle sparing and we did a lot of submission training with the jujitsu guys that also trained in the club and wrestling (one of the fight coaches did wrestling on the side). In any event it was my goju sensei that got me started competing in mma fights as he knew I had my judo and grappling background.

For the ones that are trying to tear down other styles or sports, I would suggest you don't let this get to you, let them go on their rants. My view:
Those that have the time and energy to bag other styles are clearly not putting the time and energy into their own style and training.

 

[Zero]

Pretty much no. I have eyewitness accounts of my art working at what it was designed for.

Sorry RTKDCMB, nothing you nor your sensei says counts for anything if it pre-dates the age of youtube!

Any information of the masters of old or that cannot be uploaded is simply not credible. You are training in a dead art that cannot be substantiated. Sorry to break it to you! Although, I'm in the same boat though!! I trained under a highly accomplished fighter but most of his karate fights were in the Eighties and most of these were not recorded or at least not uploaded. He must be a sham and none of his teaching can be proven!! We've all been had!!!

I'm joining up with the local mma club tomorrow. Hey, they're crap at stand up and kicking and only passable at ground work (can't match it with most judoka or bjj guys) although they are pretty solid at the shoot game. But the key thing is that all their stuff is proven, as it's on youtube.