Combat between Kiai master and MMA fighter

[drop bear]

The no touch technique used outside of a martial arts context.

which suggests something about people being conditioned to be receptive to that kind of thing.

 

[hoshin1600]

Drop bear, that's really funny. Great vid

 

[Mephisto]

I would also like to put the aikido clip into a historical perspective. From my understanding Ueshiba was in the hospital and not doing well. Everyone knew his time was up. He supposedly left the hospital did this one final demonstration then went back to the hospital and died only a few days after. If this is historically correct then it makes total sense that the performance was not at all about martial ability or if what he was doing would or could actually work and was more about seeing him on the floor one last time. doing what he could and giving what little he had left to give at the end of his life. Shame on those who try to pull things out of context. I would like to see how effective your MA is when you are in your 80,s. Later in Ueshiba,s life it was more about using motion to explain guiding principals of aiki rather than your egotistical "I can beat up the world" view point.

You guys shouldn't get all bent out of shape because people are posting videos and asking questions. If you're explanation is that he was on his deathbed when the video was shot, that gives us something to consider and it's a reasonable explanation. No one expects an 80 year old man to beat up everyone, no one is pulling things out of context, there is no context to the video and it looks questionable and merits an answer.

 

[Mephisto]

In Ueshiba's latter years Koichi Tohei was the main instructor. He was the only person ranked as 10th dan by Ueshiba. Mainstream Aikido did not suffer as a result of Ueshiba 'becoming wacky'. That is insulting and not true. Ueshiba's Aikido became softer, the better he became. His reliance on atemi all but disappeared. What guys training with him could not understand were his spiritual ramblings.

Now, Tohei IMHO, surpassed Ueshiba in his understanding and ability. His disagreement with Aikikai and his subsequent departure is what caused a weakening of mainstream Aikido, but even at that stage guys like Saito and Shioda has already left and established their own style of Aikido. Certainly they were harder because those guys had to teach the atemi to make their Aikido effective. Tohei was able to teach a softer style. Both styles are valid.

Is there any video of atemi actually being used? All i've seen is guys throwing the occasional odd strike with little or no contact. How would an Aikidoka know if they need to use atemi to make a technique work if the training is compliant? and if they aren't making contact with the atemi how do they know how much more effective it makes their techniques? I just haven't seen much Aikido outside of compliant training.

 

[hoshin1600]

In my opinion any and every art and every practitioner is guilty of falsehood and believing in bunk. It's just a matter of degrees. There are thousands of MA practitioners in the world who are taught things they have never done outside of the dojo. Who believe what their teachers have told them and think that what they have spent years training in has some kind of value that will never be tested. We all make leaps of faith that what we train in may actually work if we ever need it.
Master Ken made a joke out of saying every art is BS. But the truth is that he is not wrong. I could take any MA and tear it to shreds. We see this all the time here in the forums. Reality is that there is good and bad in everything and we tend to only want to see the good and ignore the bad. I think the kiai video is great reminder to look in the mirror and have an honest look at what is being taught.

 

[K-man]

Is there any video of atemi actually being used? All i've seen is guys throwing the occasional odd strike with little or no contact. How would an Aikidoka know if they need to use atemi to make a technique work if the training is compliant? and if they aren't making contact with the atemi how do they know how much more effective it makes their techniques? I just haven't seen much Aikido outside of compliant training.

As Aikido doesn't have competition, apart from Tomiki where the rules preclude striking you aren't going to find a lot on video. We do very little compliant training but we don't do much actual striking either. We don't need to. The strikes are there to check distance and to recognise the opportunity to strike. The technique that follows the strike is there because the strike fails.

I'll look for some video but in the meantime, here is an interesting interview that addresses Ueshiba's later years.

The not-so-soft traditional Aikido - Takemusu Aiki Australia

 

[hoshin1600]

As far the the aikido clip I just think it's a cheep shot. If you want to tear apart aikido be my guest. There are hundreds of videos of akidoka that can be posted. But how about we post videos of an old and decrepit Helio Gracie and how ineffective his techniques are. Oh and after that we can make fun of Shoshin Nagamini who lost the controll of the left did of his body due to a stroke.
I'm sorry but critiques on older martial artists just gets under my skin.

 

[drop bear]

As far the the aikido clip I just think it's a cheep shot. If you want to tear apart aikido be my guest. There are hundreds of videos of akidoka that can be posted. But how about we post videos of an old and decrepit Helio Gracie and how ineffective his techniques are. Oh and after that we can make fun of Shoshin Nagamini who lost the controll of the left did of his body due to a stroke.
I'm sorry but critiques on older martial artists just gets under my skin.

Except boxing.which trends towards pensioners beating up people half their age.

why? No idea. Probably chi.

 

[Mephisto]

As far the the aikido clip I just think it's a cheep shot. If you want to tear apart aikido be my guest. There are hundreds of videos of akidoka that can be posted. But how about we post videos of an old and decrepit Helio Gracie and how ineffective his techniques are. Oh and after that we can make fun of Shoshin Nagamini who lost the controll of the left did of his body due to a stroke.
I'm sorry but critiques on older martial artists just gets under my skin.

No art or person is beyond question. I'd be interested to see a video of old Helio, I'd also like to hear you tear him down if you think it's so easy. I don't think it's possible to tear every art down. Any practitioner that is honest about the limitations of his art will have a realistic idea about its usefulness and Won't be easily taken down.

 

[hoshin1600]

No art or person is beyond question. I'd be interested to see a video of old Helio, I'd also like to hear you tear him down if you think it's so easy. I don't think it's possible to tear every art down. Any practitioner that is honest about the limitations of his art will have a realistic idea about its usefulness and Won't be easily taken down.

From everything I have ever witnessed in real life and read on these forums, I feel I have yet to meet or hear any martial artist who is honest about their chosen arts limitations.
Every other thread on this sight turns into how one persons art is better than everyone else's. Or MMA vs TMA vs CMA etc.

 

[Mephisto]

From everything I have ever witnessed in real life and read on these forums, I feel I have yet to meet or hear any martial artist who is honest about their chosen arts limitations.
Every other thread on this sight turns into how one persons art is better than everyone else's. Or MMA vs TMA vs CMA etc.

Well, maybe you're wrong. Have you considered that? I have, and it's helped me realize some new truths.

 

[hoshin1600]

I am wrong more often then not, or so my wife says. Maybe you misunderstood my intent. My point was, the kiai video is a good reminder that if we look in the mirror we may all be a little guilty of having faith in something that may not reflect the truth. That being said how am I wrong?

 

[Drose427]

Well, maybe you're wrong. Have you considered that? I have, and it's helped me realize some new truths.

If you're referring to the "style vs style", I'd believe it more if there haven't been so many cases of Karate\TKD\TSD holding their own or beating each other, MT, and boxing and many other arts In various kickboxing venues and even outs riding each other in the early days of UFC.

Heck, it happens in grappling too. People praise BJJ as the best ground method, but Sakuraba submitted 2 (maybe 3 I cant remember) gravies with only submission wrestling.

Even in modern MMA, Karate\TKD + BJJ guys have ko'ed Muay Thai + BJJ. (With the striking styles being their foundation,)

I.e. Pettis, cung le, and Machidas all very blatantly fought extremely closesly to the fighting style their root styles of TKD and ShotOkan and held their own just fight.

People like to sit and argue that their style is the best method, but for years now various venues have proven style is irrelevant, it's how the student trains.

In early Kickboxing, Point fighters came right out and fought full contact boxers and Muay Thai guys

The only time the style vs style argument has any real merit is when you're talking a grappling style vs a striking style. But they have completely different focuses so it's apples to oranges

 

[hoshin1600]

My comment was about these forums and how people will be discussing karate kata or something similar and before you know it ,it becomes a MMA vs TMA argument and how BJJ is the answer to everything.

 

[Hanzou]

As far the the aikido clip I just think it's a cheep shot. If you want to tear apart aikido be my guest. There are hundreds of videos of akidoka that can be posted. But how about we post videos of an old and decrepit Helio Gracie and how ineffective his techniques are. Oh and after that we can make fun of Shoshin Nagamini who lost the controll of the left did of his body due to a stroke.
I'm sorry but critiques on older martial artists just gets under my skin.

Knock yourself out.

I do believe that in those vids, Helio is close to Ueshiba's age was at the time of filming (mid 80s) if not slightly older.

No no touch ki moves there.

 

[drop bear]

My comment was about these forums and how people will be discussing karate kata or something similar and before you know it ,it becomes a MMA vs TMA argument and how BJJ is the answer to everything.

so this is not specifically about that akido guy trying to win a fight with magic.

 

[K-man]

Knock yourself out.

I do believe that in those vids, Helio is close to Ueshiba's age was at the time of filming (mid 80s) if not slightly older.

No no touch ki moves there.

And about as believable. I think that it's great that both of them were on the mat in their 80s but let's agree that they were both well past their prime.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Knock yourself out.

I do believe that in those vids, Helio is close to Ueshiba's age was at the time of filming (mid 80s) if not slightly older.

No no touch ki moves there.

If this was any other martial arts video you would be saying the following:

1) For a master he certainly moves very slowly.

2) His partners are very compliant.

3) He is not using the techniques against a fully resisting opponent.

4) The attacks are unrealistic.

5) Why is he using so many stances when only a boxing stance is necessary?

6) He has never competed in the UFC so the evidence of his fighting prowess is anecdotal.

7) Need I go on?

 

[Hanzou]

And about as believable. I think that it's great that both of them were on the mat in their 80s but let's agree that they were both well past their prime.

Let's agree that locks from guard, and standing choke defenses are more believable than someone throwing someone across the room without touching them, or using "ki power" to control their movement.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Let's agree that locks from guard, and standing choke defenses are more believable than someone throwing someone across the room without touching them, or using "ki power" to control their movement.

Any martial arts training is more believable than "someone throwing someone across the room without touching them, or using "ki power" to control their movement".