Chin-na ???

[Ronnin]

other then chin na, which style has the most locks, bone and muscle manipulation ?

 

[Dale Dugas]

Shuai Jiao has a lot of locks that are built into the grabbing and throwing material they use to destroy people.

Real shuai is nasty to use as you throw people on their heads or into or off things and break them. keer bamm....

I agree with Shifu Starr, Chin na is in all systems and materials. Some people do not like them as they are leverage based and small people are not going to be able to crank big people around unless they have trained a superior grip strength among other things.

Shifu Starr, Happy New Year! and a belated Merry Christmas!

Be well,

 

[7starmantis]

Shuai Jiao has a lot of locks that are built into the grabbing and throwing material they use to destroy people.

Real shuai is nasty to use as you throw people on their heads or into or off things and break them. keer bamm....

I agree with Shifu Starr, Chin na is in all systems and materials. Some people do not like them as they are leverage based and small people are not going to be able to crank big people around unless they have trained a superior grip strength among other things.

Shifu Starr, Happy New Year! and a belated Merry Christmas!

Be well,

I agree with your analysis of real Shuai, very much so!

I dont agree on the leveraged based analysis of Chin Na though. Having a good understanding of catching a persons "center" allows chin na to be performed without the need for superior grip strength.

JMHO, 7sm

 

[Dale Dugas]

catching a persons center?

most chin na is based on manipulating the body/body parts against their natural range of motion. Wouldnt you want to train whole body power as well as sensitivity in order to be able to perform these actions no matter what, rather than leave it to "catching the person's center".

I train so that when and what I touch I unbalance the person and displace them, whether subtley or overtly depends on what is happening. Sometimes I grab and twist using whole body mechanics. I do not rely on one thing but many.

Sorry that I didnt include this before.

Chin na is a whole body coordination that most fail to understand and just twist and crank. twist, crank and get their whole body off balance as you mentioned and you own their ****.

be well,

Dale Dugas

 

[Jade Tigress]

I'm a small person and learned some very basic chin na techniques when I was training Sil Lum. I had no problem controlling a larger person with a joint lock. I think the greater problem you'd run into is not size, but an opponents flexibility.

 

[Dale Dugas]

You had better be using "whole body" power as well as being able to intiate the movement or use a distractional impact before someone larger and stronger has latched on.

Its very hard if not down right impossible for anyone small to pull off some of the chin na being taught against bigger stronger and determined people without training other modalities. Im not saying it cannot be done. Im saying my wife who is all of 5 foot tall is not going to be able to crank me at will. Too much mass to compensate for is not physically realistic.

I have taught smaller people(me being 6'2 and 280 pounds at the moment) to be able to arm bar me, but some of the wrist wraps(needle at sea bottom or Shao Tran, Snake wraps the pillar) are hard if they do not get the person unbalanced before they are set in their grappling.

JT, you do South Mantis. Famous for breaking whatever is thrown and beating people down until blood flows. Add that gow choy to your Chin Na/Kam Na and you become even worse to deal with as you are not only grabbing and hurting you are smashing and breaking. Great stuff!

Strength training is overlooked nowadays. Chin na being one aspect that needs a strong specific training to get stronger hands and arms so you can grab and crush when you need to. Hence bag catching in South Mantis as well as other training to develop iron claw ie a stronger hand all around.

 

[Xue Sheng]

You had better be using "whole body" power as well as being able to intiate the movement or use a distractional impact before someone larger and stronger has latched on.

Its very hard if not down right impossible for anyone small to pull off some of the chin na being taught against bigger stronger and determined people without training other modalities. Im not saying it cannot be done. Im saying my wife who is all of 5 foot tall is not going to be able to crank me at will. Too much mass to compensate for is not physically realistic.

I have taught smaller people(me being 6'2 and 280 pounds at the moment) to be able to arm bar me, but some of the wrist wraps(needle at sea bottom or Shao Tran, Snake wraps the pillar) are hard if they do not get the person unbalanced before they are set in their grappling.

JT, you do South Mantis. Famous for breaking whatever is thrown and beating people down until blood flows. Add that gow choy to your Chin Na/Kam Na and you become even worse to deal with as you are not only grabbing and hurting you are smashing and breaking. Great stuff!

Strength training is overlooked nowadays. Chin na being one aspect that needs a strong specific training to get stronger hands and arms so you can grab and crush when you need to. Hence bag catching in South Mantis as well as other training to develop iron claw ie a stronger hand all around.

Not really disputing anything being said here but my wife is about 5'3" tall and I have little doubt if I did anything close to trying to lock her she would drop me like a sack of potatoes.

Also Dr Yang, a few years back, during a push hand seminar lightly applied pressure to 2 points on either side of my elbow and stopped me cold.

I told this to my wife years later and she said, "you mean here" same reaction, stopped me cold.

There are qinna locks that require strength but there are qinna locks and points that require finesse too. You have to know EXACTLY where and how to apply them. Remember there is an awful lot to qinna

 

[Jade Tigress]

Strength training is overlooked nowadays.

I couldn't agree more. One thing I love about my current South Mantis training is the heavy emphasis on strength training and conditioning. I can say without a doubt that component is not overlooked in my current training. It was however, overlooked to a degree in my prior Sil Lum training. I trained on my own outside the kwoon to keep myself in good physical condition, but inside the kwoon, aside from horse stances, the conditioning was little more than some jumping jacks, push-ups, sit-ups, etc. as more of a warm-up than anything.

 

[7starmantis]

catching a persons center?

most chin na is based on manipulating the body/body parts against their natural range of motion. Wouldnt you want to train whole body power as well as sensitivity in order to be able to perform these actions no matter what, rather than leave it to "catching the person's center".

I train so that when and what I touch I unbalance the person and displace them, whether subtley or overtly depends on what is happening. Sometimes I grab and twist using whole body mechanics. I do not rely on one thing but many.

Sorry that I didnt include this before.

Chin na is a whole body coordination that most fail to understand and just twist and crank. twist, crank and get their whole body off balance as you mentioned and you own their ****.

be well,

Dale Dugas

Reading this post and the ones after, I'm not sure if you are agreeing or disagreeing with me, but either way I wouldn't consider "catching a person's center" as simple, "one thing" or something you are "leaving it to". If you do not have the person's center (ie. unbalanced them, "displaced" them) you are relying on your strength which is incorrect in my opinion. It will still work 9 times out of 10, but someone with great sensitivity and feel will escape and turn them on you everytime. The best/worst chin na are those that reach their apex while your balance is out of your own control. Those are the most dangerous as well. Many time you can use the chin na to catch the person's center, but without it your simply forcing a technique that could be much more effective done properly.

JMHO,
7sm

 

[Jade Tigress]

Reading this post and the ones after, I'm not sure if you are agreeing or disagreeing with me, but either way I wouldn't consider "catching a person's center" as simple, "one thing" or something you are "leaving it to". If you do not have the person's center (ie. unbalanced them, "displaced" them) you are relying on your strength which is incorrect in my opinion. It will still work 9 times out of 10, but someone with great sensitivity and feel will escape and turn them on you everytime. The best/worst chin na are those that reach their apex while your balance is out of your own control. Those are the most dangerous as well. Many time you can use the chin na to catch the person's center, but without it your simply forcing a technique that could be much more effective done properly.

JMHO,
7sm

I understand what you're saying Adam. We were taught to "take the person's center".

 

[Brother John]

There are qinna locks that require strength but there are qinna locks and points that require finesse too. You have to know EXACTLY where and how to apply them. Remember there is an awful lot to qinna

VERY well said Xue!

When looking into Qinna/Chin-Na it's easy to get the idea that you've seen it all. But the deeper you look, the more you realize you have SO much more to learn.
There's an awful LOT to Qinna!

Your Brother
John